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 Author Cloaking update...
NoBoDx
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
Posted: 2012-01-31 20:24   
Quote:

On 2012-01-31 18:59, Defiance{CM7} wrote:
erm... beam sweeping will still work...




and i still think its some kind of exploiting
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The only good 'ooman is a dead 'ooman. An' da only fing better than a dead 'ooman'z a dyin' 'ooman who tell you where ter find 'is mates.

CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light


Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
Posted: 2012-01-31 23:30   
so blind fire is an exploit too?

really.. there is no reason you should be immune to damage under cloak. not like you left this demension or something.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3820
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2012-02-01 21:25   
I have a suggestion, F.


So cloak uses energy, and ECCM will raise that energy cost. That's fine.

How about increasing the cost for both ECM and ECCM usage too?

They should drain energy banks the same way cloak does. There should be a cost in using these gadgets so that a pilot, or a group of pilots don't just go around spamming ECCM. They will learn to use it judiciously only when they suspect a Kluth is around.

Then it becomes a battle of time between the human and Kluth ships.

The Kluth ships will then have an extra burden of choosing whether or not to use ECM in addition to cloak (or choose to forgo ECM and drive straight for the target), in their attack run. Since ECM also uses energy, they'll have to decide when to use it. If Kluth outnumbers the humans, obviously using ECM will benefit them. If it's the reverse, it'll be better to drive straight in.

The humans will have to decide whether to spam ECCM and burn energy that they could use to fire back at the Kluth, or simply wait for Kluth to appear and then have their energy banks at full for a full counterattack.


In any case, staying stationary will not burn up energy for either side with ECCM/ECM or cloak on, so it also becomes a question of patience and knowing when to strike.

Edit:

To further clarify:
Is there a way to calculate ECCM/ECM usage in such a way that an ECCM system facing a countering ECM system also drains more energy? (This is the same mechanism that cloak gets affected by).

Meaning, you take the ship's own base siggy. If there're no ECM effects (meaning that the base sig is not driven down) then the ECCM energy cost is at its normal rate. If the ship's base sig is driven down by ECM, then additional energy cost penalties should apply to ECCM usage.

The reverse will be the same for ECM use.

This way, even bomber frigs who're attacking planets with ECM on, will have to spend energy masking his own siggy (and his bomb's) if there're defenders around with ECCM on.









[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-02-01 21:51 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
Posted: 2012-02-02 10:18   
Quote:

On 2012-02-01 21:25, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
I have a suggestion, F.


So cloak uses energy, and ECCM will raise that energy cost. That's fine.

How about increasing the cost for both ECM and ECCM usage too?




Personally I find it more elegant to just field more ECM ships on the K'luth side, thus negating the energy increase from ECCM.

Hell, if the numbers are set up right so that ECM can reduce cloak costs below the base cost, you could get a zero cloaking cost with enough ECM.

[Edit] Also, you'd get a vicious cycle for K'luth ships, which have both ECM and cloak. If ECM costs as much as cloak, there's no point using ECM on K'luth ships, meaning ewar ships aren't as useful for K'luth as for humans, meaning K'luth will continue to field masses of dreadnaughts.
[ This Message was edited by: Gejaheline on 2012-02-02 10:25 ]
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1186
Posted: 2012-02-02 12:04   
I assume Siphon needs to swap 1 or 2 torpedo for 1 aux gen then.

I can see that energy draining is to limit how long someone can cloak. Seems except Siphon and stations, other ships are fine with cloaking infinitely as long as they stand still. Should you add a timer of cloak instead of draining energy to mask signature, Fautus? Like after a period of cloaking, the cloak device may turn off automatically. The timer is more simple for the user to decide whether they approach the target and force them to act in time.

Running already sucks energy. Masking signature by energy repeats the restrictment. I prefer timer.
Quote:
On 2012-01-29 23:17, Faustus wrote:
* If the energy level of a cloaked ship reaches zero, then the device, drives, and reactors start taking damage. Obviously, a destroyed cloaking device doesn't hide your ship.


This is difficult to comprehend.

As stated, cloak sucks energy to mask signature. This means cloak function based on energy. When energy reaches zero, cloak should deactivate itself as there is no source to maintain it. How come is the ship still cloaking without energy? Apparently, since no energy left to mask signature, the ship does not cloak.

And what damage gadgets when ship runs out of energy besides the outer force?

Please don't say you find the idea from Chinese martial arts fiction, Fautus.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3820
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2012-02-02 13:54   
Quote:

On 2012-02-02 10:18, Gejaheline wrote:
Quote:

On 2012-02-01 21:25, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
I have a suggestion, F.


So cloak uses energy, and ECCM will raise that energy cost. That's fine.

How about increasing the cost for both ECM and ECCM usage too?




Personally I find it more elegant to just field more ECM ships on the K'luth side, thus negating the energy increase from ECCM.

Hell, if the numbers are set up right so that ECM can reduce cloak costs below the base cost, you could get a zero cloaking cost with enough ECM.

[Edit] Also, you'd get a vicious cycle for K'luth ships, which have both ECM and cloak. If ECM costs as much as cloak, there's no point using ECM on K'luth ships, meaning ewar ships aren't as useful for K'luth as for humans, meaning K'luth will continue to field masses of dreadnaughts.
[ This Message was edited by: Gejaheline on 2012-02-02 10:25 ]




The problem is that after the ship refactoring, you guys have basically stripped most Kluth ships of their ECM.

Now if you were to return 3 ECMs to the Ulti worker, or fit a scout with 3 ECMS (counter point to the human EW scouts) you perhaps have a leg to stand on with that idea.


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Silent Threat { Vier }
Marshal
Anarchy's End


Joined: August 03, 2004
Posts: 278
From: Waiting...watching...
Posted: 2012-02-02 15:58   
As K'luth I don't mind trying this new cloaking system but I imagine it would be hard to balance.

When I look ahead I just see UGTO and ICC hugging planets once more just sitting there gathered with their ECCM on along with the planet's sensor bases and dictor field. The K'luth won't be able to do much about it if the energy drain is just too high. If K'luth can sneak in and then only get off one or two alphas each before having to try to escape with little or no energy then it simply won't be worth it for them to do so and combat would come to a standstill as the UGTO and ICC would most likely not want to try to fight K'luth in deep space unless they had the numbers.

Being a more cautious player I know that I would not care to head out to deep space to engage cloaked K'luth while depending on my ECCM to drain them of enough energy to force them out of cloak or to have little enough left to be able to fight effectively and so ICC and UGTO may just hug their planets while K'luth just sit there in deepspace with neither side doing much.

I have not tried it out in Beta yet myself but going by all that I read this is what I fear might happen.

People talk about using scouts and smaller ships but it is rarely done on any side. Many times it is just not worth it when you can have another dread's worth of firepower with you.

All this is just my personal view on things.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2038
From: Michigan
Posted: 2012-02-02 18:18   
Quote:

On 2012-02-02 15:58, Silent Threat { Vier } wrote:
People talk about using scouts and smaller ships but it is rarely done on any side. Many times it is just not worth it when you can have another dread's worth of firepower with you.

All this is just my personal view on things.




Isn't that what's being changed? All ships have their uses but most people go by brute force and follow the "bigger is better" approach.

I will say this though, with how badly ECM was nerfed this may be needlessly difficult to balance. Like I've been saying since it was done, 1 ship's worth of ECCM can just about counter 4 ships' worth of ECM.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3820
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2012-02-02 19:28   
Quote:

On 2012-02-02 18:18, Talien wrote:
Quote:

On 2012-02-02 15:58, Silent Threat { Vier } wrote:
People talk about using scouts and smaller ships but it is rarely done on any side. Many times it is just not worth it when you can have another dread's worth of firepower with you.

All this is just my personal view on things.




Isn't that what's being changed? All ships have their uses but most people go by brute force and follow the "bigger is better" approach.

I will say this though, with how badly ECM was nerfed this may be needlessly difficult to balance. Like I've been saying since it was done, 1 ship's worth of ECCM can just about counter 4 ships' worth of ECM.



As I mentioned, not only was ECM nerfed, but the ship refactoring stripped a lot of ECM off K'luth ships. I don't know why that was even necessary.

So what we should do to effect this balance, and go along with Geja's idea, is to equalize ECM and ECCM again. Make them counterparts of each other. Same range, same effect (reverse of each other) on sig.

Only then will it be a question of who's bringing more EW to the table. And to promote smaller ships, how about we equip some of the smaller guys (dessies and below) with 2 or even 3 ECM/ECCM onboard? Dreads and stations will have only 1 onboard max.

Would that then help with balancing ECM vs ECCM?




Otherwise, as I suggested, make ECCM energy costs equal that of cloak, so human players will also have to time themselves when to use it.

Promote judicious, intelligent usage. Not just spammage.
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Demorian
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy


Joined: October 06, 2001
Posts: 3403
From: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posted: 2012-02-02 21:55   
I love how, ten years later, I can still spot a post from Faustus from a mile away just by looking for the ellipsis after the subject header.

-Dem
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
Posted: 2012-02-03 22:18   
Quote:

On 2012-01-31 23:30, Defiance{CM7} wrote:
so blind fire is an exploit too?

really.. there is no reason you should be immune to damage under cloak. not like you left this demension or something.




i didnt say "make cloaked ships invulnerable"
but using a graphic-glitch that is visible only on one client to find something invisible (and it doesnt even deal any damage), thats what i call exploiting
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The only good 'ooman is a dead 'ooman. An' da only fing better than a dead 'ooman'z a dyin' 'ooman who tell you where ter find 'is mates.

Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse


Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
Posted: 2012-02-04 08:40   
beacons raise signature a lot. and the limit on beacons per ships is 3.

i suggest that the limit be changed to 1 beacon per ship, and signature effect be increased to 30.0 sig units.

also, cloak device should have a slightly higher base energy drain but a limit on the maximum energy that it drains when cloaking the ship at high signature.

this leads to cloak being draining, but not potentially super draining when countered with beacons, and also lets kluth have some incentive if they try to play daredevil and attack an eccm fortress.
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Critus
Chief Marshal

Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 52
From: kpo8914
Posted: 2012-02-04 09:05   
In my humble opinion, i think cloack should have a small energy increase but should have a diferent powerbar like a power supply just for cloak ( but drain only when u are mover at more than 3.0gu), the other thing is signature, eccm should be efective in friendly terrytory (to avoid unfair advantage for the kluth) but in places like nebula or near stars where the environment is more hostile that should take the eccm almost useless or useless. With the other faction that is not balance i mean the icc, it should have similar territory bonus, like near stars the energy output should be increase like if the icc where able to harvest some power from the star and in the middle of space that is with no interference the range should be increase. This will add a very interesting tactical side to the game without adding any new control interface, plus will give the less balance factions tactical options to work with.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3820
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2012-02-05 22:55   
Quote:

On 2012-02-02 15:58, Silent Threat { Vier } wrote:
As K'luth I don't mind trying this new cloaking system but I imagine it would be hard to balance.

When I look ahead I just see UGTO and ICC hugging planets once more just sitting there gathered with their ECCM on along with the planet's sensor bases and dictor field. The K'luth won't be able to do much about it if the energy drain is just too high. If K'luth can sneak in and then only get off one or two alphas each before having to try to escape with little or no energy then it simply won't be worth it for them to do so and combat would come to a standstill as the UGTO and ICC would most likely not want to try to fight K'luth in deep space unless they had the numbers.

Being a more cautious player I know that I would not care to head out to deep space to engage cloaked K'luth while depending on my ECCM to drain them of enough energy to force them out of cloak or to have little enough left to be able to fight effectively and so ICC and UGTO may just hug their planets while K'luth just sit there in deepspace with neither side doing much.

I have not tried it out in Beta yet myself but going by all that I read this is what I fear might happen.

People talk about using scouts and smaller ships but it is rarely done on any side. Many times it is just not worth it when you can have another dread's worth of firepower with you.

All this is just my personal view on things.





I think Silent has a good point here.

As a human player, I would not want to stray too far from my planets if I didn't have the player numbers (with ECCM).

And as Kluth, I also wouldn't want to approach any planets full of sensor bases because it would be bad news for me. Especially more so since planets are often dico'ed.



It's hell to balance, ain't it?

On one hand, if ECCM isn't effective enough, the human players who now can't ping, don't have a mechanism to know if Kluth is around.... except when one decloaks off their ass and starts burning through their hull.

On the other hand, if ECCM is too strong, then Kluth don't stand a chance in hell of cloaking and attacking (no energy).


IMO, there should be ECM to ECCM parity.
But there should also be something to allow the human ships to momentarily detect the Kluth... or at least let them know that Kluth is around.


I dunno. Suddenly, I'm beginning to think that maybe the current ping system is doing OK.


[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-02-05 22:56 ]
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
Posted: 2012-02-06 10:49   
does anyone know the game "battlecruiser millennium" ?

you cant see cloaked ships, but if your science-officer is good enough, she mentions "There is something out there"

so why not add something similar:
every few ticks, there is a chance that human ships sense if luth ships are around but not the exact number/ position

more ideas around cloaking:
- scanner reveals cloaked ships (only for the ship with scanner) but drains a big amount of energy
- eccm have a chance to reveal cloaked ships but the ship cant use any other gadgets (they might have to focus all energy to sensory or something like that)
the closer the ship, the more likely that it'll reveal cloaked ships
- command-ships gain a gadget that does the above thing
- cloak uses (almost) no energy but after being cloaked for a few minutes the ship starts to loose health because of radiation and the luth ships must (should) wait for the radiation to wear of after battle
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The only good 'ooman is a dead 'ooman. An' da only fing better than a dead 'ooman'z a dyin' 'ooman who tell you where ter find 'is mates.

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