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 Author [1.701] Release Feedback
Orkan [OO-XII]
Fleet Admiral

Joined: April 22, 2010
Posts: 201
From: A Point Perfectly Computed Yet Never Repeating
Posted: 2013-11-18 02:28   
Quote:
On 2013-11-18 00:38, Fluttershy wrote:
K'Luth is totally imbalanced and out of hand.

2 K'Luth cruisers can EASILY dive through a large swarm of 8 or so UGTO or ICC forces, pick off a damaged target, and escape without even sustaining hull damage.

Can 2 UGTO or ICC cruisers dive through a swarm of K'luth dreads and cruisers and pick off a weak target? No, because the severely damaged ones will be cloaked.

The only time K'Luth die is when they fly supply ships, frigates, or destroyers and were being too aggressive or careless.
Cruisers are unstoppable unless it's being piloted by a complete noob.



I cannot suggest a fix to this, it's just due to so many factors that would take me an hour to list.





Wow, Flutter, you may have hit the nail on the head there. I did not really want to bring this up as I do not presently fly K'luth other than in Beta where it was interesting to try out the new models. Lacking combat experience in 1.7 of piloting K'Luth vessels (eg not being greatly aware of how the new ewar changes affect energy and 'burn' to break cloak as well as the all round armour/shields increase for all factions) all I can say from an ICC perspective is that indeed, bagging Kills off of Luth Pilots, is not impossible but is mighty difficult. Saying this as an ICC player may have not been taken so seriously as my bias (everyone is tainted by some degree of it) may cloud my argument.

The main problem is that with K'Luth having the first-strike and the effective ability to 'choose' when combat starts and when it ends we really only have 30 seconds or so to try our best to inflict maximum damage to any attacking K'luth vessel, which most often has positioned itself on an optimum attack vector (generally to the rear) before commencing it's assault, primarily with with heavy damage beam weapons that do not miss. Ever. Once that main alpha has struck and we begin to reposition ourselves for our retaliatory exchange most often as soon as our adversary, who generally knows their limits takes a certain amount of damage they cloak, then hang around, repair then rinse and repeat. That is the Luth exit strategy at present. UGTO and ICC exit strategy is counterable by KLuth in that a ship wishing to exit combat can be hounded to the ends of the MV by a Destroyer or scout spotter which tells the rest of the fleet the position of the damaged ship. Other Luth players simply home in and end it, if they are quick enough on the jump. The point is they ARE able to end it. Remember that even if a damaged human ship wishes to try to escape to a Shipyard if it is followed and fired upon even once, it cannot dock and chances are good that it will be eventually destroyed. A K'luth vessel wishing to end combat and go afk in a hostile battlespace, for example, simply has to hit cloak, wait a bit, dodge a little and then it's safe as houses as in untouchable. Blind fire can be avoided by dodging. There is no way to 'track' a cloaked Luth ship.

It has become harder in my opinion to destroy non-ai K'Luth vessels. It is necessary to have a much larger ICC or UGTO taskforce to effectively dissuade a smaller K'luth attack fleet.

Basically Larger Human faction fleet = Smaller K'luth Fleet. This is the very definition of imbalanced.
Then it seems even footing. Should the K'luth have an equal number of Pilots then they have the advantage and can pick off targets one by one, with patience, at their leisure.

Quote:
Borgie wrote:
nothing wrong with this at all, everytime i decloked to kill an icc at your planet i took 40-50% hull damage, would then cloak to get out and rinse was and repeat. part of icc and ugto's problem is you guys don't support each other, allowing us luth to take full advantage of this giving us easy kills.



While there is some merit to the claim that ICC and UGTO forces seperately sometimes do not support each other well enough or communicate effectively to prevent destruction of fellow Pilots I have to say that at other times Human faction teamplay is highly coordinated and K'luth Pilot kills are often scored.

Problems

-ICC weapons are less effective than they were mainly due to loss of ION cannons, remember K'luth break Missle lock simply by cloaking. Supposedly as the 'Missile faction' that puts us at a great disadvantage.

-Falloff ineffective. Our range bonus is meaningless versus K'luth as they engage typically under 300gu, essentially point blank. Not only does this negate any missile fire, but it also means falloff bonus is only to be 'enjoyed' versus UGTO or unless we are the ship not being the main target of the pack hunt and have the ability to fire on the K'luth from range. Trust me though, the K'luth know when to pick their moments and that is indeed a testimony to their skill as Pilots. On the other hand when you can idle around setting yourself up to uncloak directly behind your adversary as a threesome not much more planning needs to occur.

-Dreads. It appears as if K'luth Pilots have not yet felt the unease of Piloting a Dreadnought in 1.7 space alone like the other two human factions, why? because the other two factions are sitting ducks to cruisers and destroyers while their JD's recharge but a K'luth dread can amble around the MV at it's own pace while it's Pilot watches Youtube on the other screen and plays sudoku whilst chillin. oh, not there yet? clear from enemy, great, uncloak and now jump. Welcome to K'luth Air, don't bother to fasten your seatbelts...

I could write more as I am sure that I have missed much more but these are just a touch of certain imbalance issues.

Solutions

I agree that cloak should be absolute while it is working .
Ideas to consider could be:
1 Do nothing at all and see what happens.
2 Increase K'luth energy drain due to E-war. Seeing as they are the Hiding faction Humans should have developed a strong enough 'seek' counter. Perhaps 2 sensor frigates should be as powerful in ECCM as four are presently?
3 Decrease their armour, as I knew it K'luth were once known and notorious for their Heavy damage first strike but were balanced with fragile armour. Now their armour is almost on a Par with the other two factions. Yes it is still the weakest but not by much.

Take it easy Darkspacers, Fly safe... : )


[ This Message was edited by: Orkan [OO-XI] on 2013-11-18 02:54 ]
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Code Red
Chief Marshal
Non Omnis Moriar


Joined: September 08, 2007
Posts: 184
Posted: 2013-11-18 03:09   
My BS has no cannons now only 600gu range QST ? what was a fun ship now has snail pace torps, very sad as mine has now been junked.
[ This Message was edited by: Code Red on 2013-11-18 06:18 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3820
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2013-11-18 04:32   
Quote:
On 2013-11-18 00:38, Fluttershy wrote:
K'Luth is totally imbalanced and out of hand.

2 K'Luth cruisers can EASILY dive through a large swarm of 8 or so UGTO or ICC forces, pick off a damaged target, and escape without even sustaining hull damage.

Can 2 UGTO or ICC cruisers dive through a swarm of K'luth dreads and cruisers and pick off a weak target? No, because the severely damaged ones will be cloaked.

The only time K'Luth die is when they fly supply ships, frigates, or destroyers and were being too aggressive or careless.
Cruisers are unstoppable unless it's being piloted by a complete noob.



I cannot suggest a fix to this, it's just due to so many factors that would take me an hour to list.




Oh me oh my...

First the QQ was about Kluth dreads being too OP with cloak and high output weps. And now that the paradigm has shifted, Kluth cruisers are your next target of QQ.

Seriously, some people.


One on one, a Kluth cruiser will never beat a human cruiser of the same type. What they excel at is to hit and run, double teaming and killing the wounded and stragglers.

Whose fault is it if you guys don't take care of your weak or wounded?




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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral

Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
Posted: 2013-11-18 05:47   
Missiles have had their velocity trends reversed. Lower-level missiles are slower and higher-level missiles are faster, instead of vice-versa. Should finally fix missile accuracy issues!




Lower velocity missiles allow more time for PD to work.
Fast missiles that can't turn will rarely hit anything.



Do I see an overall nerf to missile damage application?



Yep.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral

Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
Posted: 2013-11-18 06:22   
Quote:
On 2013-11-18 04:32, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-18 00:38, Fluttershy wrote:
K'Luth is totally imbalanced and out of hand.

2 K'Luth cruisers can EASILY dive through a large swarm of 8 or so UGTO or ICC forces, pick off a damaged target, and escape without even sustaining hull damage.

Can 2 UGTO or ICC cruisers dive through a swarm of K'luth dreads and cruisers and pick off a weak target? No, because the severely damaged ones will be cloaked.

The only time K'Luth die is when they fly supply ships, frigates, or destroyers and were being too aggressive or careless.
Cruisers are unstoppable unless it's being piloted by a complete noob.



I cannot suggest a fix to this, it's just due to so many factors that would take me an hour to list.




Oh me oh my...

First the QQ was about Kluth dreads being too OP with cloak and high output weps. And now that the paradigm has shifted, Kluth cruisers are your next target of QQ.

Seriously, some people.


One on one, a Kluth cruiser will never beat a human cruiser of the same type. What they excel at is to hit and run, double teaming and killing the wounded and stragglers.

Whose fault is it if you guys don't take care of your weak or wounded?



Kenny... it's not QQ, it's just the facts.
Do you realize that they were TRYING to care for their weak and wounded?
The ICC had 2 combat dreads, several heavy cruisers, storm cruisers, and tempest cruisers, even a strike cruiser.
With all of them covering each others back, in orbit of a friendly depot/interdictor, a pair of K'Luth could STILL just roll in and wreck someone because ICC damage is so painfully awful that you can honestly tank damage from an ICC dread in a self-repairing T2 supply ship.

The only K'Luth that suffered losses were those flying the ships that DO actually have a significant weakness to armor.
Look at their destroyers and frigates, they're insanely fragile.
This fragility does not seem to carry on to their cruisers, which get the extra armor, and can be VERY tough with chitin.
Not as tough as UGTO or ICC, but tough enough that their cloak effectively doubles their armor.

I'm going to be flying K'Luth exclusively unless things change.
I noticed almost instantly that the game got easier after i switched to K'Luth, even though they were outnumbered.
Being able to kick back, not worry about being seen, and vulching easy kills with impunity. What's not to love?

[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2013-11-18 06:26 ]

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Enterprise
Chief Marshal

Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2574
From: Macclenny, Florida
Posted: 2013-11-18 06:40   
Quote:
On 2013-11-17 19:36, Borgie wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-17 16:14, _Sajuuk_ wrote:
can anyone explain why luth got minelayers armed with cannons and core weapons? seems like a kick in the balls to the other factions. a minelayer should only have mines! not guns!





just the same as icc has a dred with cannons and fighters with ecm to hide its self, and ugto has well i don;t know what ugto has.



Interestingly, UGTO has quite a few of its own ships with minelayers and guns. Only the Wyvern gets SI's on top of its mine's, and its a T2 dread. That's hardly the entire faction.

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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3820
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2013-11-18 08:03   
Quote:
On 2013-11-18 06:22, Fluttershy wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-18 04:32, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-18 00:38, Fluttershy wrote:
K'Luth is totally imbalanced and out of hand.

2 K'Luth cruisers can EASILY dive through a large swarm of 8 or so UGTO or ICC forces, pick off a damaged target, and escape without even sustaining hull damage.

Can 2 UGTO or ICC cruisers dive through a swarm of K'luth dreads and cruisers and pick off a weak target? No, because the severely damaged ones will bei cloaked.

The only time K'Luth die is when they fly supply ships, frigates, or destroyers and were being too aggressive or careless.
Cruisers are unstoppable unless it's being piloted by a complete noob.



I cannot suggest a fix to this, it's just due to so many factors that would take me an hour to list.






Oh me oh my...

First the QQ was about Kluth dreads being too OP with cloak and high output weps. And now that the paradigm has shifted, Kluth cruisers are your next target of QQ.

Seriously, some people.


One on one, a Kluth cruiser will never beat a human cruiser of the same type. What they excel at is to hit and run, double teaming and killing the wounded and stragglers.

Whose fault is it if you guys don't take care of your weak or wounded?



Kenny... it's not QQ, it's just the facts.
Do you realize that they were TRYING to care for their weak and wounded?
The ICC had 2 combat dreads, several heavy cruisers, storm cruisers, and tempest cruisers, even a strike cruiser.
With all of them covering each others back, in orbit of a friendly depot/interdictor, a pair of K'Luth could STILL just roll in and wreck someone because ICC damage is so painfully awful that you can honestly tank damage from an ICC dread in a self-repairing T2 supply ship.

The only K'Luth that suffered losses were those flying the ships that DO actually have a significant weakness to armor.
Look at their destroyers and frigates, they're insanely fragile.
This fragility does not seem to carry on to their cruisers, which get the extra armor, and can be VERY tough with chitin.
Not as tough as UGTO or ICC, but tough enough that their cloak effectively doubles their armor.

I'm going to be flying K'Luth exclusively unless things change.
I noticed almost instantly that the game got easier after i switched to K'Luth, even though they were outnumbered.
Being able to kick back, not worry about being seen, and vulching easy kills with impunity. What's not to love?

[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-11-18 18:47 ]







Incidentally, were those cruisers Scythes with def upgrades?





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Azreal
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2800
From: United State of Texas, Houston
Posted: 2013-11-18 10:31   
For some reason, swapping servers will change the command modules, but it doesnt change the fighter types. It doesnt reset the whole ship in other words. Thought maybe u could use that tidbit of info.

Also the sy bug is an orbit bug. If you orbit, then go to enter sy, then retarget the planet and orbit again, it will let u in no problem even if u are 250 away from planet. but you have to reorbit.
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal

Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1244
Posted: 2013-11-18 11:42   
Quote:
On 2013-11-18 02:28, Orkan [OO-XI] wrote:
Problems

-ICC weapons are less effective than they were mainly due to loss of ION cannons, remember K'luth break Missle lock simply by cloaking. Supposedly as the 'Missile faction' that puts us at a great disadvantage.



The Ion Cannons still exist. What exactly do you mean by "loss of Ion Cannons"? I could point out a number of ships that have them, and I fail to see how Ion was the only effective ICC weapon. Hint: ICC have a Cruiser with Ions.

Quote:
-Falloff ineffective. Our range bonus is meaningless versus K'luth as they engage typically under 300gu, essentially point blank. Not only does this negate any missile fire, but it also means falloff bonus is only to be 'enjoyed' versus UGTO or unless we are the ship not being the main target of the pack hunt and have the ability to fire on the K'luth from range. Trust me though, the K'luth know when to pick their moments and that is indeed a testimony to their skill as Pilots. On the other hand when you can idle around setting yourself up to uncloak directly behind your adversary as a threesome not much more planning needs to occur.



You have the Valence Autocannon, which does more damage than particle cannons within 400gu, and equal at 400gu (but less at 600gu). Try using that weapon against K'Luth and then report back about your cannons.

Quote:
-Dreads. It appears as if K'luth Pilots have not yet felt the unease of Piloting a Dreadnought in 1.7 space alone like the other two human factions, why? because the other two factions are sitting ducks to cruisers and destroyers while their JD's recharge but a K'luth dread can amble around the MV at it's own pace while it's Pilot watches Youtube on the other screen and plays sudoku whilst chillin. oh, not there yet? clear from enemy, great, uncloak and now jump. Welcome to K'luth Air, don't bother to fasten your seatbelts...



I play K'Luth a lot, and trust me when I say K'Luth know unease when flying Dreads. Where the other factions use Dreadnoughts and Stations at every opportunity in 1.701, K'Luth forces have consisted primarily of cruisers and destroyers, resorting to Dreadnoughts only if we felt it would be safe to do or, alternately, to send mines from afar.

The Cloak time on Dreadnoughts is so abysmally long and the energy drain high (due to using Chitinous armour) they're just not viable for quick strikes against a large force.

Quote:
I agree that cloak should be absolute while it is working .
Ideas to consider could be:
1 Do nothing at all and see what happens.
2 Increase K'luth energy drain due to E-war. Seeing as they are the Hiding faction Humans should have developed a strong enough 'seek' counter. Perhaps 2 sensor frigates should be as powerful in ECCM as four are presently?
3 Decrease their armour, as I knew it K'luth were once known and notorious for their Heavy damage first strike but were balanced with fragile armour. Now their armour is almost on a Par with the other two factions. Yes it is still the weakest but not by much.



2 is not acceptable. Energy drain on Cloak only encourages earlier egress from combat, and will result in K'Luth further emphasising hit-and-jump tactics instead of their current gameplay. It'd make them unplayable considering how high the energy drain is already and how difficult it makes to sustain combat.

3 is also not acceptable. K'Luth armour HP values are notably lower from the other factions, with the sole exception being Chitinous armour nearly rivalling it... but it increases the energy drain from Cloaking significantly, so it's only ever used on the large ships where small ships employ organic.

Even then, a 1.701 Station's Core Cannon volley would strip off one layer of armour a time, so Chit didn't provide sufficient protection regardless. Not sure how situation is with 1.702 stations now.

Quote:
My BS has no cannons now only 600gu range QST ? what was a fun ship now has snail pace torps, very sad as mine has now been junked.



It was never intended to be a fleet, just to support one. It can still adequately do it and core torps make it more effective against close-jumps by Dreadnoughts. You just have a weakspot between where torps can reach and from where missiles can fire. It's ICC who is best able to use this weakness due to superior offence at 601gu+ range, but you can manoeuvre within that range and just dodge the torpedoes. The idea is to make battle stations easier to assault, as their supremacy at all ranges was ridiculously effective.

Quote:
Fast missiles that can't turn will rarely hit anything.



Good, because they are intended to be used against stations and dreadnoughts.

Quote:
With all of them covering each others back, in orbit of a friendly depot/interdictor, a pair of K'Luth could STILL just roll in and wreck someone because ICC damage is so painfully awful that you can honestly tank damage from an ICC dread in a self-repairing T2 supply ship.



Try Valence Autocannons.


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Sheraton *XO*
Chief Marshal
Faster than Light


Joined: January 18, 2013
Posts: 464
From: Keel Mountains
Posted: 2013-11-18 14:50   
A few observations regarding the valence autocannons follow.

1) The autocannons deal energy damage as opposed to the kinetic of most ICC cannons.

2) While they do have fallout, it was mentioned earlier that k'luth like to engage up close. This means that the fallout can be discounted to a degree because of the upclose nature of k'luth. However, this does mean that the cannons are not as reliable on dreads that are engaging stations or other ships which are sieging a planet. In those cases it would be best to revert to either rail, gauss, missiles, or fighters to ward off the attackers. Against the UGTO we can simply switch to fusion torpedoes at range, or a mixture of railguns, and other energy weapons such as the laser weapons on the storm cruiser, tempest. or we can use stealthier ships to chip away at the UGTO with ships like the guppy, stealth cruiser, Rapid Assault Destroyer, combat destroyer, line destroyer, etc.

3) The incredibly rapidfire nature of the shots from the valence autocannons mean they can be hard to evade at close ranges and since speed is equivalent to how accurate a projectile is in this game, excluding missiles, the autocannons are actually an incredibly nice weapon to use on the rear archs against k'luth ships who like to uncloak with ravagers, and scythes since these two ships tend to be ones that are used commonly for sneaking up behind someone.

4) The autocannons can be combined with other weapon types such as sabbots or railguns to create a combination of damage types that means at least one type of damage will be doing its full potential on the UGTO at a given time because of the mixture of kinetic and energy weapons.

5) Autocannons can be refitted onto any ship that has railguns which means that you can have ships like the flagship dreadnought, combat dreadnought, line dreadnought, light cruiser, heavy cruiser, Rapid Assault Destroyer, combat destroyers, etc. with an ungodly amount of these fast firing weapons that can help you mix up teh damage types. The abundance of railguns with weapons such as torpedoes also means that you could equip sabbots on the one hand for kinetic damage and range, and valence autocannons on the other for short range engagement. This is not a bad combination since I was able to take apart a mandible with minimal damage (no hull damage at all) and deal with some ravagers and scythes while inflicting respectable damage that eventually caused me to jump out but left them with severely damaged armor and around 75% hull.

These are just some observation and suggestions for the ICC to observe and take into account with the changing armarments of our ships. Also, try using ECM to cloak fighters and missiles, it works incredibly well in my experience.

-Sheraton

[ This Message was edited by: Sheraton *XO* on 2013-11-18 14:53 ]
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Sheraton *XO*
Chief Marshal
Faster than Light


Joined: January 18, 2013
Posts: 464
From: Keel Mountains
Posted: 2013-11-18 16:23   
Quote:
On 2013-11-18 01:29, Borgie wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-18 00:38, Fluttershy wrote:
K'Luth is totally imbalanced and out of hand.

2 K'Luth cruisers can EASILY dive through a large swarm of 8 or so UGTO or ICC forces, pick off a damaged target, and escape without even sustaining hull damage.

Can 2 UGTO or ICC cruisers dive through a swarm of K'luth dreads and cruisers and pick off a weak target? No, because the severely damaged ones will be cloaked.

The only time K'Luth die is when they fly supply ships, frigates, or destroyers and were being too aggressive or careless.
Cruisers are unstoppable unless it's being piloted by a complete noob.



I cannot suggest a fix to this, it's just due to so many factors that would take me an hour to list.



nothing wrong with this at all, everytime i decloked to kill an icc at your planet i took 40-50% hull damage, would then cloak to get out and rinse was and repeat. part of icc and ugto's problem is you guys don't support each other, allowing us luth to take full advantage of this giving us easy kills.



Borgie indirectly brings up a tangential point I wish to elaborate on for everyone else: The k'luth use AHR - automated hull repair. To stay in combat longer. Likewise the ICC tend to have shields that regenerate but when under constant attack from the k'luth or other factions that tends to not be enough. I would encourage people on the ICC to consider using the supply ships more often as this tends to help reduce the casualty rate.

-Sheraton
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral

Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
Posted: 2013-11-18 17:55   
Would be nice if ICC supply ships had some way to assist in shield recharge.

Flying ICC supply is literally the worst.
Between hull being hard to repair and rather fragile, and composite armor being flimsy and less than half of the outer protection, supply ships are rendered far less useful.

Trust me, if your shields are down, a supply ship is not going to save you.
Kluth will eat through the remaining armor and hull, and the supply ship simply will not be able to keep up with the damage output of the K'luth.

On UGTO or K'Luth, the supply ships are VERY useful in combat.
A supply ship left undealt with can keep a cruiser in tip top shape despite being pummeled with multiple cannon fire.
Additionally, the supply ship can easily repair itself and tank damage for the team (really only applicable to the T2 and T3)
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