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 Author [1.701] Release Feedback
Rain of Fire [O-XII]
Fleet Admiral

Joined: May 18, 2011
Posts: 69
From: South of Klaus, 14,000 gu from Insanity and 3,000 from Desperation.
Posted: 2013-10-30 07:10   
The Fleet carrier still runs into the problem of not being able to see planetary structures.
I tried:
Having an allied ship standoff with me 1200gu from the planet with an active scanner - Nothing
Wasting two slots on SSRs then having them hug the planet - Nothing. SSRs are useless
Having a player hug the planet - Partial success. Could see only that half of the planet. Bombs would drop the pop but not actually damage structures.

Finally I just grabbed a bomber dread and hit the planet. I deployed a 4 salvo cloud at the planet's (now detected due to the dreads somewhat functional scanner) shipyard.
My client did not show the bombs impacting, nor did it do any damage to the sy but the pop dropped like a brick. Tried it again. 4 salvoes in 1 cloud. Same result. Shipyards showed a pop deficit but no damage, though this time I did see the impact animation.
(Note: I was using mirv bombs. I checked after the first cloud did no damage)
Edit: I would also like to point out there were no shield on that planet, and I had tried guess bombing the dico for a good five minutes while my buddy grabbed something with a scanner. After I got my dread and started my runs, I could see that I had been aiming correctky at their dico, but it had taken no damage.

Finally, ICC low level missiles can't hit snap, while I can still murder dessies and cruisers in metaverse with a LD. Anti-Radar seems to be too fast, and either cannot turn fast enough or is aiming too far off, even against stationary targets. I can use a missile frigate, or even missile dessy or cruiser, and I can't hit a ugto weapons plat from any range with them. They seem to be aiming at some point 75gy behind the actual plat/target. ITs have the same problem, and you can dump 20 frigate level ITs at a tercio and they will narrowly miss. Every salvo. As-is, the ICC ships with AR/ITs are not effect nor useful.
They only seem to need a small turning buff and they would be running hits most of the time.
(In the case of ARs, I wouldn't mind having interceptors like that being very, very hard to evade. They don't do that much damage, and they *should* be able to hit)



[ This Message was edited by: Inconsequential Fire on 2013-10-30 08:49 ]

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Chewy Squirrel
Chief Marshal

Joined: January 27, 2003
Posts: 304
From: NYC
Posted: 2013-10-30 11:11   
Quote:
On 2013-10-30 07:10, Inconsequential Fire wrote:
The Fleet carrier still runs into the problem of not being able to see planetary structures.
I tried:
Having an allied ship standoff with me 1200gu from the planet with an active scanner - Nothing
Wasting two slots on SSRs then having them hug the planet - Nothing. SSRs are useless
Having a player hug the planet - Partial success. Could see only that half of the planet. Bombs would drop the pop but not actually damage structures.



Agreed, either the scanner needs to have its original range for revealing planets, or the SSR has to actually work.

Quote:

Finally, ICC low level missiles can't hit snap, while I can still murder dessies and cruisers in metaverse with a LD. Anti-Radar seems to be too fast, and either cannot turn fast enough or is aiming too far off, even against stationary targets. I can use a missile frigate, or even missile dessy or cruiser, and I can't hit a ugto weapons plat from any range with them. They seem to be aiming at some point 75gy behind the actual plat/target. ITs have the same problem, and you can dump 20 frigate level ITs at a tercio and they will narrowly miss. Every salvo. As-is, the ICC ships with AR/ITs are not effect nor useful.
They only seem to need a small turning buff and they would be running hits most of the time.
(In the case of ARs, I wouldn't mind having interceptors like that being very, very hard to evade. They don't do that much damage, and they *should* be able to hit)



Yeah I noticed this too. My strike cruiser hits a dread about 50% of the time with its IT missiles with this new patch. It seems that when the missiles are fired straight towards the target, they do fine. But if they are fired from a broadside or fired aft they have a very good chance of missing. The tracking on small missiles got a little bit over-nerfed
[ This Message was edited by: Chewy Squirrel on 2013-10-30 11:12 ]
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iwancoppa2
Ensign

Joined: October 23, 2013
Posts: 12
Posted: 2013-10-30 15:37   
Going to add to that, frigate-sized missiles from a UGTO frigate were missing about 70% of the time when fired at a cruiser, aprox 900gu range.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2038
From: Michigan
Posted: 2013-10-30 18:06   
Quote:
On 2013-10-29 11:17, Bardiche wrote:

If you have a 65% chance of doing something right, and you do it a 100 times, probability states that you will do it right 65% of the time. That's... that's what that number indicates. So if 10 fighters are launched, and pulse wave would destroy one of them 65 out of 100 times, then if it does it 10 times it should destroy 6 or 7 of them purely by going from maths. It could be unlucky and hit none, it could be lucky and hit all.

What you're saying about it "sometimes not affecting any at all" and that "often be much lower than 65% of a volley" is all poppycock because random number generation should have equal odds of picking a number between 0 and 100, and probability states it will pick a number lower than 65 OR 65, 65% of the time. If "often" it would do less than that, you'd be implying the random number generator is biased.



It's pretty well known (or at least it should be) that a computer running a RNG does not strictly adhere to that. Computer based RNGs work off of a seed number and that directly affects the outcome, it's why they're referred to as pseudorandom number generators.

Ever get that "What the hell? I just missed 3x in a row with 90% accuracy!" syndrome in video games? Yeah. That's the RNG not being so random. It's evident when it's an RPG or strategy game that allows mid battle saving, the ones that aren't specifically set up to pull a new seed each time a calculation is made will have the same result each time no matter how often you reload right before that point. It happens in MMOs too although it's less apparent because you can't save and reload anytime you want.


Quote:
On 2013-10-29 10:54, Azreal wrote:
I understand that they can bring many pulse waves to a battle, but perhaps THAT is the issue, and not beating a gadget to death with a nerf bat.

You know, kinda like what we used to say about flux waves?

And then they were limited in number and vessel?

And they havent been an issue since....?

2 cents charged.



This is something I brought up a few times myself. A few ides that had been thrown around were increase energy use, increase cooldown, add a second gadget that Pulse Shield can be swapped for, or even limit it only to ships with a PD role.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2801
From: United State of Texas, Houston
Posted: 2013-10-30 19:36   
I think it should be on dreads and stats. Cruisers have enough pd and speed and ewar. The dreads and stats could use the extra defense, with a little better chance of hitting projectiles.

In my own opinion.
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral

Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
Posted: 2013-10-31 02:00   
Just going to say that a hulled K'luth cruiser after taking EMP and flux fire to the hull was able to cloak and retreat while under the effect of 2 frigate ECCM and 4 planet sensor bases and successfully left the dictor field. A UGTO or ICC cruiser in the same situation would have died. twice.
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal

Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1244
Posted: 2013-10-31 09:00   
Cloak is designed specifically to allow K'Luth to determine when combat starts and when it ends. At best, counter-measures are only allowed to hinder that a little, but not make it outright impossible.

That K'Luth cruiser unfortunately decided that combat was over, and ECCM isn't allowed to have made it impossible for the cruiser to do so. It operated perfectly fine.

Last I heard this system was being reviewed and alternate ideas were discussed, however, so it's definitely on the developer's to-do list. It's not ideal.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3820
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2013-10-31 10:41   
As long as the K'Luth has energy left and his cloaking device is above 50%, he can cloak up and run as he pleases.

Even if his energy is at 0.0, he can still cloak and take damage to his cloak while putting distance between him and yourself.

Especially in a planetary dictor zone, most K'Luth would risk damage to their cloak, run at max speed out of the dico AoE, and then long jump out of there.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2801
From: United State of Texas, Houston
Posted: 2013-10-31 13:52   
Quote:
On 2013-10-31 09:00, Bardiche wrote:
Cloak is designed specifically to allow K'Luth to determine when combat starts and when it ends.



This is not really true now. It allows for luth to hide after an engagement far better than it does to select when it will start. Cloak drains pretty fast atm, and doesnt allow us to position as we otherwise would. With plenty of ecm available maybe, but that isnt usually the case atm.
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Orkan [OO-XII]
Fleet Admiral

Joined: April 22, 2010
Posts: 201
From: A Point Perfectly Computed Yet Never Repeating
Posted: 2013-10-31 22:58   
Flying as ICC, issues I have noticed...


- ai issues. Was in Ross 248 at the time an ICC majority server and was unable to spawn ai combat assistance. Too many transports stacked and doing nothing. Invading K'luth forces had a nice selection of combat ships, small to dread class.
Something with the ai is wrong as it was for UGTO in Sol about a week ago now.

- What was that 'stealth at 100%' icon in the bottom left next to speed, I didn't notice it to be doing anything ever. If it is to inform the player of ewar in the area it is a good idea but it was not working at the time.

- Scanner range is too low, had to approach planet with scanner to fire off P. Siege Missiles which seemed to defy the point of such a long range weapon, could've done greater damage from that range with mirvs.

- Something is not quite right with AR missiles, IT seemed to be contacting and damage was appropriate but AR seemed to make very little difference to enemy armour not so sure about tracking.

- Pulse shield - From something not so good to something even worse. I would prefer, if it is to stay the way it is, to be able to swap that gadget out for something more useful such as an extra pulse beam or ewar device. I realise that there is 'random number generation' going on but perhaps that is the problem. It is less and less a game of skill with gadgets that work according to chance. ( I realise that much of the game works on chance eg ship capture but the way it is implemented is much more 'believable') There should be a way to, with the correct technique, always achieve a certain result. I would be very annoyed if i played K'luth or UGTO if my cloak or flux wave only worked 50% of the time according to a random number generator and then I would have to wait through the cooldown only to try it again and then again be unable to cloak or fire flux.. You wouldn't impose that effect on the jump drive would you, why? Because this isn't Dungeons and Dragons. What navy, real or imagined, would ever employ a device with a 50% failure rate? Imagine if the Phalanx ship defense system only ever fired up half of the time. Please. Jokes about Duct taped armour aside must ICC really be degraded in this way?
During the Vietnam War era I have read that the inital M-16 replacements for the M-14 had jamming issues due to various factors. Those factors were later ironed out. These new pulse shields are effectively 'jamming' and are not fit for purpose. Please can this be addressed.
Please consider increased cooldown or swappable pulse wave gadget rather than keeping this at 50%, even 65% is not good. It should be 100% with a 30second cooldown. Pulse wave is a really good idea in keeping with the defensive nature of ICC but now its a bit more like just a firework which can sometimes burn a pilot or missle if they get too close, or not.


- Capped enhancements at 24%. I suppose this was done out of balance issues and fear of 40%+ bonuses as being overpowered, eg 8 multiplexers or 8 engine tuners. This now levels the playing field more between those who acquire the blues and those who fly stock ships. Although I can appreciate why this was done it does seem that the ships are now less customizable and will be much more similar in stats. Previously you could have a ship dedicated to pure speed, or weapon power, or defence or a mix of the above eg half speed and half weapon power. Now we are all forced to mix types in the same type of way. So I can't fly as fast as I used to so I have to choose for my other 4 slots (if using 6% blues)
something like engine tuners and defense power or engine tuners and weapon multiplexers for example. This has the effect of limiting a bit more the way my ship can be different from other Pilots'. Now there are fewer combinations for customisation. Nevertheless, here I have to agree that a ship taking out another in 2 Alphas or less is a bit unfair so I see why these limits were brought in. Engine tuners never hurt anybody though... or did they : P


-Changes seem to be being brought in on a 'live' basis ie with every update, it feels like 1.701 is a 'live beta/release version, the ground keeps shifting beneath my feet... I suppose you are doing this because you require maximum feedback from us Pilots, however for those who like to keep a tidy Profile, we want to know that prestige or Kills etc were truly earned from skill rather than kills amassed because something was wrong with a particular game mechanic at the time which was since fixed or changed.. I suppose this means that Profiles of all players cannot be truly compared as different versions of Darkspace through the years netted different prestige statistics, eg ships damaged pres must have increased for those who hunted AI after it's introduction. Some players rather kill other players rather than ai and their pres gains although greater per ship must end up being lower overall, anyhow that is something to consider.







[ This Message was edited by: Orkan [A-OO] on 2013-10-31 23:22 ]
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal

Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1244
Posted: 2013-11-01 05:22   
Quote:
It should be 100% with a 30second cooldown. Pulse wave is a really good idea in keeping with the defensive nature of ICC but now its a bit more like just a firework which can sometimes burn a pilot or missle if they get too close, or not.



At 100% with a 30 second cooldown, a single ICC combat ship can effectively replace all escort ships any of the other factions need to employ in order to screen against missiles and fighters. Your pulse beams already have the best reload speed and are able to remove most of the hostile projectiles engaging allied targets, to give ICC a device that will make them invulnerable to missile fire is not a step forward.

UGTO's Flux Wave does damage and that's all she does. I'd rather have something that prevents damage to me, but hey. K'Luth's Cloak exposes them to enemy fire for the duration of engaging it and is in the process of being looked at, but it has a definite drawback.

What would you propose is the pulse shield's weakness if employed at 100% probability with a 30 second cooldown? Unless its range were nerfed to be incredibly difficult to employ, it would just be a device that would merit the removal of all ICC point defence ships, as they are pointless. It is, however, not meant to make it so that ICC never has to employ point defence ships. It supplements your point defence abilities, and destroying all hostile projectiles within 300gu with a 50% probability achieves this goal. It does not replace your pulse beams, it does not replace the need for screening, it merely assists your point defence when under heavy fire.

ICC players do not appear to want a device that assists them against missile fire. They either want a tool that is overpowered and replaces the need to even install pulse beams, or they don't want it at all and want replacements. You can't have that. You have to accept that you were never meant to be impervious to missiles and fighters, and will never be meant to.


Quote:
- What was that 'stealth at 100%' icon in the bottom left next to speed, I didn't notice it to be doing anything ever. If it is to inform the player of ewar in the area it is a good idea but it was not working at the time.



It tells you whether you're spotted or not.
[ This Message was edited by: Bardiche on 2013-11-01 07:40 ]
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Mefeng
Admiral
Raven Warriors

Joined: June 07, 2010
Posts: 25
Posted: 2013-11-01 11:22   
I've also noticed that when ICC players is outnumbered by kluth or ugto players on the rare occasion, I only see 0transports spawning. And also, I have only seen big combat ships for the kluth and none for the human factions yet... even though ICC usually outnumbers UGTO.

Regarding the pulse shield, no it doesn't necessarily need to be 100% because of the reasons Bardiche mentioned. But a 50% rate? ...
Someone here (I forget who) has argued that since there are so many ICC players with pulse shields on virtually every ship, then the nerf is a good idea. So just because there are more people playing ICC, we should have it nerfed? Well if everyone started playing UGTO, then the flux wave should be nerfed to 50% chance of hitting a ship with much lower damage because at the moment, 1 flux will make a little frigate with 0 armor and 100% hull go boom. Or if an overwhelming majority played k'luth, we nerf their beams so 10 of them can't just jump you and alpha you to death?
The premise behind this person's argument is that too many people play ICC. Well, I'm sorry you play a faction that nobody really plays. Maybe you should get some more people to join/come back to DS instead.

ICC is supposed to be a range faction. We should continue to have that advantage, don't you think? With the pulse beam, it only has a range of 100 or 150 gu Even though it reloads quickly, if there are enough missiles being fired, it won't be able to destroy all the missiles unless there's a ton of them. And fighters, they already stay far enough from a ship, pulse shield rarely has the range to "hit" them, and there's no way the beams can hit them. So why all the QQ?
So perhaps we should increase the range for pulse shield? Or keep the range and increase the %?

Or maybe, a complete overhaul and introduce a new gadget?
[ This Message was edited by: Elite Warrior Mefeng on 2013-11-01 11:26 ]
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Mefeng
Admiral
Raven Warriors

Joined: June 07, 2010
Posts: 25
Posted: 2013-11-01 11:27   
Quote:
On 2013-10-29 22:15, Pantheon wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-10-29 21:29, Elite ICS Mefeng wrote:
I've been putting the weapon cooldown enhancement on my ships and the cooldown times don't seem to be changing.
The stats don't change. Yeah, I actually counted the # of seconds for weapons that have a long recharge time (so it's more accurate) and the enhancement didn't change anything.



Cooler's reduce the time between each projectile (in multi-projectle weapons) in a volley of projectiles.

Condenser's reduce the cooldown of the weapon.

I'll change the effect readout to make this more well known.




I tested 48% weapon efficiency. However it seems to reduce the cooldown of the weapon by only 23%. Is this intentional or a bug?
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal

Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1244
Posted: 2013-11-01 12:38   
Quote:
On 2013-11-01 11:22, Elite Warrior Mefeng wrote:
Someone here (I forget who) has argued that since there are so many ICC players with pulse shields on virtually every ship, then the nerf is a good idea. So just because there are more people playing ICC, we should have it nerfed? Well if everyone started playing UGTO, then the flux wave should be nerfed to 50% chance of hitting a ship with much lower damage because at the moment, 1 flux will make a little frigate with 0 armor and 100% hull go boom. Or if an overwhelming majority played k'luth, we nerf their beams so 10 of them can't just jump you and alpha you to death?
The premise behind this person's argument is that too many people play ICC. Well, I'm sorry you play a faction that nobody really plays. Maybe you should get some more people to join/come back to DS instead.



I was the one making an argument that because virtually every ICC ship has the pulse wave, it is incredibly easy to bring a great many of them to the field. You misinterpreted that to mean "there are too many ICC players". That destroys the premise of the rest of your slippery slope argument. (By the way, Frigates cannot be one-shot by Flux Wave.)

Quote:
ICC is supposed to be a range faction. We should continue to have that advantage, don't you think? With the pulse beam, it only has a range of 100 or 150 gu. [snip] So why all the QQ?
So perhaps we should increase the range for pulse shield? Or keep the range and increase the %?



Why all the QQ indeed? ICC have:

- Longest range on cannons, torpedoes, missiles and core weapons. Additionally they have no falloff.
- Fastest recharge on close range PD laser, also good range.
- Lowest mass in the game allowing them to accelerate faster than any other faction.
- If I recall correctly, your missiles do the highest damage out of all three factions.

Quote:
Even though it reloads quickly, if there are enough missiles being fired, it won't be able to destroy all the missiles unless there's a ton of them.



That's precisely the point of the current iteration. You are not meant to be able to gun down all of the incoming missiles. ICC are not intended to be impervious to missile fire or able to mostly shrug off incoming missile fire. ICC have escort destroyers and other PD-based ships. If you were meant to take out missiles and all with just your pulse shield and beams, then you would not have PD ships.

Quote:
And fighters, they already stay far enough from a ship, pulse shield rarely has the range to "hit" them, and there's no way the beams can hit them.



There's a reason there's a point-defence beam with extended range. The amplified pulse beam is intended to take out fighters; Either that, or employ allies to screen fighters.
[ This Message was edited by: Bardiche on 2013-11-01 12:41 ]
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Orkan [OO-XII]
Fleet Admiral

Joined: April 22, 2010
Posts: 201
From: A Point Perfectly Computed Yet Never Repeating
Posted: 2013-11-01 13:03   
Quote:
On 2013-11-01 05:22, Bardiche wrote:

At 100% with a 30 second cooldown, a single ICC combat ship can effectively replace all escort ships any of the other factions need to employ in order to screen against missiles and fighters. Your pulse beams already have the best reload speed and are able to remove most of the hostile projectiles engaging allied targets, to give ICC a device that will make them invulnerable to missile fire is not a step forward.

UGTO's Flux Wave does damage and that's all she does. I'd rather have something that prevents damage to me, but hey. K'Luth's Cloak exposes them to enemy fire for the duration of engaging it and is in the process of being looked at, but it has a definite drawback.

What would you propose is the pulse shield's weakness if employed at 100% probability with a 30 second cooldown? Unless its range were nerfed to be incredibly difficult to employ, it would just be a device that would merit the removal of all ICC point defence ships, as they are pointless. It is, however, not meant to make it so that ICC never has to employ point defence ships. It supplements your point defence abilities, and destroying all hostile projectiles within 300gu with a 50% probability achieves this goal. It does not replace your pulse beams, it does not replace the need for screening, it merely assists your point defence when under heavy fire.

ICC players do not appear to want a device that assists them against missile fire. They either want a tool that is overpowered and replaces the need to even install pulse beams, or they don't want it at all and want replacements. You can't have that. You have to accept that you were never meant to be impervious to missiles and fighters, and will never be meant to.




OK. I got carried away but when I say 100% of the time I mean it; just like jump drive activates 100% of the time. Give us a 1 minute cooldown, heck, even a two minute, wait that's still too much, I'd still be down with a 2 and a half minute cooldown, or even 3. That's down to the developers. I just want a gadget I can rely on when I activate it, that's fit for purpose and does it's job. I'm not looking for 'invincibility mode'. That is no challenge and no fun. ICC point defence is good and yes it should be as the defensive faction, yes we can shoot far with no falloff but a ship can close range of around 1200gu in less than 10secs, K'luth often appear within their range and we have to gain range to survive. In this version missiles are much more important as many more ship of all factions and types make use of them. Fighters also work better. Plus enhancements have changed (introduced caps) so I can't chase fighters down as effectively with my Assault Cruiser as I just lost the ability to go 24% faster. (from 30.1 to 26.7gu/s) - I'd rigged my Assault Cruiser as a decent PD ship - , not that I would get any prestige from defending myself or team-mates from the increased traffic in enemy fighters, mines or missles. You say we have it good against missiles now, not from where i'm flying, any nebula and our PD can't even target incoming missles, fighters or mines. In a nebula PD is much less effective esp against K'luth and in that circumstance the Pulse shield is all we have against shroud or other similar low signature missiles. Even with its superior cooldown if it doesn't take out anything in the first wave, it may not even take out anything in the second or third, but hey this is random number generation so if i cross my fingers and leave it to chance perhaps I'll take out all missles in all three enemy salvoes, or perhaps not...

Please forgive my tone, I do feel that this change is unfair. At least put it back to 65% how it was. If anything it seemed to be more effective then. I spoke of replacing the gadget because, as is, it is simply not good enough to rival UGTO or K'luth special gadgets of supposed 'equal' but different function.

From a pure gameplay and satisfaction point of view a 100% roll on every missile/mine or fighter within 300gu would be best with a long appropriate cooldown of a length I would prefer to leave to the developers. I don't want OP I want something functional not hit and miss. Weapons always fire off 100% of the time and often they hit or miss according to factors such as the Pilots skill at aiming and the targets skill at dodging. To me the Pulse shield is a Defensive weapon, like Goalkeeper, Kashtan or Phalanx and it should do its job. When it's cooling down, then the skilled enemy should send their well-timed salvo and expect to hit.

I'm done here.
[ This Message was edited by: Orkan [A-OO] on 2013-11-01 13:47 ]
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