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 Author 1.73 cloak changes
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3821
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2014-01-03 06:12   
Quote:
On 2014-01-02 10:22, Talien wrote:
The new cloak mechanics makes me wonder what role Beacons will play besides just raising sig so it's harder to "ghetto cloak" with ECM. May want to consider either raising Beacon speed so you don't have to be literally ontop of your target to hit it, or having Beacons themselves be low sig so it's harder to PD them. They don't actually activate until they hit the target so they should be even less easy to detect than a Missile given they'd have to be much smaller than even Frigate class Missiles.




Beacons, IMO shouldn't actually raise any kind of sig. It should simply do what it says.... be a beacon. That means that once it tags any ship, it becomes a targetable object until it expires.

If a ship cloaks with a beacon on its hull, that ship disappears, but anyone else can still target the beacon and hit him. Of course, if hit, there should be a roll to determine if the beacon itself gets destroyed by the hit.

And.. since it's a beacon, it should be PD'able at launch. So an increase in speed should make sense, not a sig reduction.

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Azreal
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2801
From: United State of Texas, Houston
Posted: 2014-01-03 06:25   
Quote:
On 2014-01-03 06:12, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-01-02 10:22, Talien wrote:
The new cloak mechanics makes me wonder what role Beacons will play besides just raising sig so it's harder to "ghetto cloak" with ECM. May want to consider either raising Beacon speed so you don't have to be literally ontop of your target to hit it, or having Beacons themselves be low sig so it's harder to PD them. They don't actually activate until they hit the target so they should be even less easy to detect than a Missile given they'd have to be much smaller than even Frigate class Missiles.




Beacons, IMO shouldn't actually raise any kind of sig. It should simply do what it says.... be a beacon. That means that once it tags any ship, it becomes a targetable object until it expires.

If a ship cloaks with a beacon on its hull, that ship disappears, but anyone else can still target the beacon and hit him. Of course, if hit, there should be a roll to determine if the beacon itself gets destroyed by the hit.

And.. since it's a beacon, it should be PD'able at launch. So an increase in speed should make sense, not a sig reduction.





I have advocated for this for at least five years.
The beacon should be targetable, not the ship.

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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2039
From: Michigan
Posted: 2014-01-03 10:46   
Quote:
On 2014-01-03 06:12, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Beacons, IMO shouldn't actually raise any kind of sig. It should simply do what it says.... be a beacon. That means that once it tags any ship, it becomes a targetable object until it expires.

If a ship cloaks with a beacon on its hull, that ship disappears, but anyone else can still target the beacon and hit him. Of course, if hit, there should be a roll to determine if the beacon itself gets destroyed by the hit.

And.. since it's a beacon, it should be PD'able at launch. So an increase in speed should make sense, not a sig reduction.



Being a targetable object would be the best solution, yes, but didn't devs say long ago that wouldn't happen? I forget the reason though, maybe (hopefully) it's changed with 1.7 as many things have and can be revisited as an option.

Sig reduction would make sense if you think about it, Beacons are basically boxes with a transmitter that's not activated until it actually hits a target. Currently they seem to have higher sig than missiles since they're pretty well always PDed unless you're right ontop of the target when you launch one, which is a bad position to be for Scouts unless they're using ECM.....which kinda defeats the purpose of flying an EW Scout to plant Beacons on targets, at least in their current role of raising signature as ECCM does a better job and to multiple targets at once.
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Orkan [OO-XII]
Fleet Admiral
The Myrmidon Legion


Joined: April 22, 2010
Posts: 201
From: A Point Perfectly Computed Yet Never Repeating
Posted: 2014-01-03 15:40   
-------Incoming Transmission-------

Admiral's Log Supplemental: Stardate 3rd Jana - 20,014 - (New Farstars Calendar)

It seems a change is in the stellar winds...

Interstellar Cultural Confederate Astronomer-Spiritualists have detected a strange disturbance in the aether of the space-time continuum. From what ICC Intelligence has gathered about the mysterious K'luth and their habits it is clear that we have still so much more to learn about our most elusive adversary. Theories once held to be true and solid keep being displaced by new discoveries which force our Scientists and People of Lore and Knowledge to reappraise what they once held to be set in stone.

Not since the realignment of the Transfer Gates due to the massive Hyper-Metastorm now only know to us as 'OnePointSeven' and the massive arms race that ensued thereof has something so great been about to occur in the known Metaverse.

It appears as if the Collective Hive-Mind of our Psychic Enemies is weakening. If only temporarily. Initially the cause of this temporal fracture in the aether was not known but now after consolidation of the facts with various other Houses of Wisdom on Exathra and on other ICC worlds it is clear about what is about to happen.
Their Queen is dying...

From what we have been able to ascertain about the K'luth it transpires that their entire Society, termed 'Brood', is dominated by and led in all aspects by a physically fragile but immensely powerful Psychic Matriarch that is capable of all forms of descision making. While it may be that there are individual tribes or Clans with their own 'Minor-Queens' in various Nests, Hives and Colonies scattered throughout Andromeda and other sectors where the Warships of the K'Luth Armada may appear, the overall direction of the entire Species is led and shaped by this one creature. Moreover it has also come to light that genetic traits possessed of the Queen Herself become the dominant traits in the Organic genepool which determine the shape and crafting of all Organic Hulls in use by the Armada at the time of Her reign.
This Queen, whose true name remains unknown to us at this time, is able to cloak herself indefinately and if our Intelligence is confirmed accurate has an unusually hardy Chitin Carapace as well as having an extremely high Energy output ability. This is now believed to be the reason for the massive output in damage achievable by current K'Luth Space-faring Warships.
If our theories are correct, with the passing of the present Queen, Her successor shall imbue the Armada with Her new genetic characteristics. Perhaps she will not be able to cloak indefinately as her mother and perhaps She will be less hardy. Our experts surmise that her powers of Electronic Warfare may be greatly heightened and are on high alert already developing prospective counters.

There is a also a small glimmer of hope that captured Human Pilots enslaved by the K'Luth may be freed from the manipulative influences of the Sentient Insectoid Horde during this weakening of psychic power but that seems unlikely - the K'Luth pysche has a corrupting influence over the pilots incorporated into her ranks. Of those that freely join or are captured (and many think they enlist freely but are unaware of the Sag Hothhian Brain-tick Larvae already present in their minds implanted by infiltration agents of the K'Luth Inquisition) most will need a strong will and great resolve to be truly liberated from their clutches.

Whatever is to transpire. Things are about to get interesting.

The Queen is dead. Long Live the Queen.

ICC Admiral Orkan.
Fleet: Faster Than Light

End of Log



-------End Transmission-------

[ This Message was edited by: Orkan [OO-XI] on 2014-01-03 16:58 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3821
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2014-01-05 00:51   
Quote:
On 2014-01-03 10:46, Talien wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-01-03 06:12, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Beacons, IMO shouldn't actually raise any kind of sig. It should simply do what it says.... be a beacon. That means that once it tags any ship, it becomes a targetable object until it expires.

If a ship cloaks with a beacon on its hull, that ship disappears, but anyone else can still target the beacon and hit him. Of course, if hit, there should be a roll to determine if the beacon itself gets destroyed by the hit.

And.. since it's a beacon, it should be PD'able at launch. So an increase in speed should make sense, not a sig reduction.



Being a targetable object would be the best solution, yes, but didn't devs say long ago that wouldn't happen? I forget the reason though, maybe (hopefully) it's changed with 1.7 as many things have and can be revisited as an option.

Sig reduction would make sense if you think about it, Beacons are basically boxes with a transmitter that's not activated until it actually hits a target. Currently they seem to have higher sig than missiles since they're pretty well always PDed unless you're right ontop of the target when you launch one, which is a bad position to be for Scouts unless they're using ECM.....which kinda defeats the purpose of flying an EW Scout to plant Beacons on targets, at least in their current role of raising signature as ECCM does a better job and to multiple targets at once.




I'm not sure why it "wouldn't happen", perhaps because of coding.

Personally, if the current Signature/EW/Cloak energy game, I wouldn't go so far as to make a beacon TOO effective (moves fast + be undetectable) as the K'luth has been handed one too many nerf bats in the near term.

In my observation, already:
- EMP weaps are very effective in knocking multiple systems (including JDs and cloak)
- Flux wave does A LOT of damage
- ECCM when applied already causes cloak energy drain to go through the roof (and in 1.73 will make it near impossible to cloak once in combat)



One thing I do realize folks.... and devs... is that, in your quest to "balance" out the factions, you guys tend to go too far in nerfing one faction and often end up sending one faction to the bottom of the lake.

It has happened with the UGTO, ICC and now the K'luth. Maybe the problem is that you're trying out TOO many ideas at once, instead of one at a time and then observing its effects.




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Necrotic
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 378
Posted: 2014-01-06 01:14   
I say just remove the cloak entirely this dead horse has been beaten so long theres no real point in talking about it. The cloak is a core game mechanic still being argued about, nerfed fixed andchanged so many times. How many years does it take to fix a core game mechanic? a year or 2 we will be right here talking about the same mechanic and how it needs to be fixed again. What is the point anymore? Remove the cloak kluth will be just fine with out it anyways. Real kluth players dont rely on the cloak and havnt in some time. At this point just do something different remove the cloak and remove this endless marry go round we been on for over a decade.

im not trying to be harsh here but i bet many of u including the devs especially pantheon will be relieved of not having to balance the cloak endlessly forever. Maybe some of the kluth get mad. So what? people get mad at every patch about something.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2801
From: United State of Texas, Houston
Posted: 2014-01-06 05:58   
all this belly aching and boo-hooing makes me laugh.

What, the cloak is the only game mechanic that is untouchable?

Kenny is calling it a nerf too far, and it hasnt even gone live?

When Kluth arent able to roam around in all dreads with no small ship support, then Ill say they have been brought in line with the other factions. ATM Kluth is dreadspace.

And atm, the cloak is broken. It does not "break" as it supposed to do. Zero energy? No problem, cloak still works. Device is less than fifty percent? No problem, cloak doesnt break.

Instead of all the griping, take your asses over to the human faction and fight vs Kluth for a while. Then come back and laud the current cloaking scheme.

And dont act as tho the current cloak mechanic is a good one. It isnt. The pingable cloak was a far better balanced affair.
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jamesbob
Grand Admiral

Joined: August 22, 2009
Posts: 410
Posted: 2014-01-06 06:39   
Quote:

On 2014-01-06 05:58, Azreal wrote:
When Kluth arent able to roam around in all dreads with no small ship support, then Ill say they have been brought in line with the other factions. ATM Kluth is dreadspace.

And dont act as tho the current cloak mechanic is a good one. It isnt. The pingable cloak was a far better balanced affair.




agreed
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3821
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2014-01-06 08:42   
Quote:
On 2014-01-06 05:58, Azreal wrote:
all this belly aching and boo-hooing makes me laugh.

What, the cloak is the only game mechanic that is untouchable?

Kenny is calling it a nerf too far, and it hasnt even gone live?

When Kluth arent able to roam around in all dreads with no small ship support, then Ill say they have been brought in line with the other factions. ATM Kluth is dreadspace.

And atm, the cloak is broken. It does not "break" as it supposed to do. Zero energy? No problem, cloak still works. Device is less than fifty percent? No problem, cloak doesnt break.

Instead of all the griping, take your asses over to the human faction and fight vs Kluth for a while. Then come back and laud the current cloaking scheme.

And dont act as tho the current cloak mechanic is a good one. It isnt. The pingable cloak was a far better balanced affair.




Heh. I'm not calling it a nerf too far. I'm fine with the cloak changes. Just airing my opinion about having the numbers tweaked a little. And yes, I've gone into beta to actually try it and fly it.

But on the other hand. I'm also looking at the history of changes that were made to address the various QQs and issues that the players have had over the years. Across all factions. All with good intentions, but sometimes overdone. It's like losing control in a car. You steer in the opposite direction.... too much... overcorrection... and end up skidding off to the other side.








[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2014-01-06 20:51 ]
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Kinthalas
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness


Joined: January 01, 2003
Posts: 60
Posted: 2014-01-07 12:31   
I'm guessing you guys already know this, but faster cloak rate is taking away cloak time. Losing 15% of cloak time with stealth mod and also losing 8% or 16% from brood aura(s). Not sure if it has any effect on the cloak cool down time, that timer doesn't show up in the cloak tool tip it looks *cough*hint*cough*. I haven't taken the time to count it yet.

PS - Played a lot in a dread yesterday with my stealth mod in, before it got pointed out to me. I kept it in, to lazy to change the build for now. Even with only 76.5 seconds cloak time it didn't seem to short, not that I'm saying to cut the time down!

[ This Message was edited by: Kinthalas on 2014-01-07 13:06 ]
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-xTc- ExisT
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness


Chatting in 'DarkSpace English'

Joined: March 20, 2010
Posts: 531
From: Red Lobster
Posted: 2014-01-07 13:10   
Quote:
On 2014-01-07 12:31, Kinthalas wrote:
I'm guessing you guys already know this, but faster cloak rate is taking away cloak time. Losing 15% of cloak time with stealth mod and also losing 8% or 16% from brood aura(s). Not sure if it has any effect on the cloak cool down time, that timer doesn't show up in the cloak tool tip it looks *cough*hint*cough*. I haven't taken the time to count it yet.





I can confirm this. It lowers the time to reach cloak and it also lowers the total time you can stay cloaked.

Also to note about the stealth mod, is that it doesn't reduce signature when your sig is negative...it increases it, as if its trying to get your sig closer to 0 rather than making it low as possible. I havent tested it but im assuming the brood aruas do the same thing because it is the same effect.

EDIT I tested the sig lowering auras and they have the same effect.
[ This Message was edited by: -xTc-.ExisT- *XO* on 2014-01-07 14:56 ]
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The Fridge
Chief Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: December 13, 2008
Posts: 559
From: In Your Fridge, Eating your Foods.
Posted: 2014-01-07 13:44   
Quote:
On 2014-01-07 13:10, -xTc-.ExisT- *XO* wrote:
I can confirm this. It lowers the time to reach cloak and it also lowers the total time you can stay cloaked.

Also to note about the stealth mod, is that it doesn't reduce signature when your sig is negative...it increases it, as if its trying to get your sig closer to 0 rather than making it low as possible. I havent tested it but im assuming the brood aruas do the same thing because it is the same effect.




The first one is unintended.
The 2nd one is related to the cloak gadget needing 0 sig to cloak.
Thus increasing your sig when at negative sig.

[ This Message was edited by: The Fridge on 2014-01-07 13:44 ]
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Boerenkool
Marshal

Joined: December 18, 2007
Posts: 218
Posted: 2014-01-07 18:02   
í have only flown 2 days of K'luth. first impression for whoever wants to take that firther into the talks: jump, fly to combat, fire missles, cant cloak. Why? because i fired missles and have to wait till they recharged(15 sec or so) untill i can press cloak button, then 10 sec later im cloaked. meaning total of 30 sec. in this time 3 ships jump me and kill me.

Next run, i jump in 1200 gu from planet, 2 ships jump me before i press cloak button, signal rises from 20 to 30, thus i need 300 energy to cloak. using almost all my energy to cloak, i cannot fire anymore when i uncloak.

Now the cloak lasts 60 sec, max speed of a dread is 15 gu/sec, meaning 900 gu sutance i can travel before im seen again, and of course at this time with 200 energy max (less then half of maximum capacity). i heard some players talk about cloak fire and cloak again...thats just impossible unless ur near ur own planet with a heckload of ecm bases.

in the end the conclusion was: if you want to creep up on enemy, you have 900 gu if its standing still, if it moves less, meaning you have to jump within firing range, cloaktaking 10 sec you get shot for 1-2 armor layers, afterwards you hope the enemy stops manual firing at exactly where your diamond is even though ur cloaked and moving left right whatever, then u turn and reach back, fire 2 alphas after uncloaking, taking out the rear armor almost, then being forced to jump.

maybe i need more practice i dont know. this is just my first observation. of course when flying ugto or icc i raged on kluth stealing all my energy after 2nd alpha. now as kluth i dont understand how the kluth ship got to fire its second alpha lol. if there would be any suggestion, it would be to increase max cloaked time to 180 seconds, that would give enough time to position and would give reason to kluth having crappy armor. as of now the balance is:

UGTO: better (more HP)/ dmg specific armor, flux (2 bonusses, no negative)
ICC: shields, better ship manoevring do to less mass (shields), longer range, in return for better defenses (faster recharge) and more manoevrability and range, they get less dmg. (3 plusses 1 negative)
Kluth: cloak, energy draining weapons (1,5 plus, since energy drain comes instead of weps that deal dmg, that ships of other factions have at same ship class)

some ppl think that kluth weps/beams deal more dmg, but numbers actually less for same ship class, especially at max range. there are a few beasts on the ship selection that kill a lot 1 vs 1 though, but in equal groups i would have to say the desisive factor is that kluth can no longer creep in to a good offensive position on a defensive position, what was supposed to be the whole point of the faction, and the only strenght it has. Now with the cloak being useless in:

- 4 sensor base planets or, 2 sensor based planet and 2 narrowband/focused eccm, can no longer initiate cloak since it would cost more energy then i have inreserve
- solo offense, enemy blind fires your diamond with torps moving sideways in server while moving cloaked, and it takes 10 sec before being cloaked this losing half your total armor, after cloaking you can move a max of 900 gu away before being automatically uncloaked and fired at again. if enemy ship moves at ur last know direction at max speed, max distance from you if you turn right would be 500 gu, average/logical would be 300 gu uncloaking at 60% armor tops. some tool for running now isnt it?

i do see however, the everlasting use when creeping in with 4 ships, of coiurse the enemy would see you jump in, knowing you all uncloak in 1 minute. and thats where the qq starts. the enemy knows exactly when u will be there again. the whole point of cloak is hiding the plan. surprise the enemy from a certain angle.sure i can move to a certain point by myself, but try to explain to other ppl where to move and make them do it at 15 gu/sec max, all within a minute.

since devs have been saying some numbers are in consideration, id say increase the time you can stay cloaked to 120 sec. i guess the thing where you have 40 signal you cannot cloak is acceptable, 1 thing at a time lol. if you feel that upsets the balance and need to take away something else: elf still seem to work well, all enemies ran without firing back after begin hit. only tested shortly though
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Galactic Navy


Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
Posted: 2014-01-07 18:32   
Quote:
On 2014-01-07 18:02, ModHugger wrote:
í have only flown 2 days of K'luth. first impression for whoever wants to take that firther into the talks: jump, fly to combat, fire missles, cant cloak. Why? because i fired missles and have to wait till they recharged(15 sec or so) untill i can press cloak button, then 10 sec later im cloaked. meaning total of 30 sec. in this time 3 ships jump me and kill me.

Next run, i jump in 1200 gu from planet, 2 ships jump me before i press cloak button, signal rises from 20 to 30, thus i need 300 energy to cloak. using almost all my energy to cloak, i cannot fire anymore when i uncloak.




Well yeah.. this is exactly what happens to a human ship that tries to do this to Kluth.. or a human ship that tries to do this to another human ship.

Kluth ships are not an exception. The faction is not an exception. There are reasonable expectations when regarding engagements when it comes to both numbers, class, role, and environment.

If you jump in alone into a group of enemies, you are probably going to die unless you are good at dodging and jumping away before hand - or you have help on the way.

Cloak, is a tactical tool. You can fire weapons, but you can't fire weapons and cloak unless you have some EWAR help. One or the other. You can go for the kill (committing to an engagement) or you can harass (goal is to escape while causing damage).

Harassment can't be done in ships that are not good at it, for one. So using a big dread to try and harass a couple of cruisers.. isn't going to work. A small, fast ship with missiles? Better.

You will still lose to numbers, however. As intended.

Secondly, if you commit to an engagement, then you are taking on risk. Risk is important because its a very important part of experience gain in the game. You must be willing to risk what you have, in order to gain more.

This is true even in the dynamic of numbers, in which you cannot gain prestige from combat with nothing to fight against even if you have 8 people. People only commit to battles that are even. The previous cloak allowed you to choose to either commit or harass - whichever was most convienient at the time. And none of the risk, as cloak mitigated it all.

You don't see human ships jumping lone destroyers into a nest of Kluth ships unless its either a lure, or its just suicidal. You can still jump in and cloak. Evasion is intended to be difficult if you commit to the battle.






-Ent
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Kinthalas
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness


Joined: January 01, 2003
Posts: 60
Posted: 2014-01-07 18:38   
Quote:
On 2014-01-07 13:44, The Fridge wrote:
Quote:
On 2014-01-07 13:10, -xTc-.ExisT- *XO* wrote:
I can confirm this. It lowers the time to reach cloak and it also lowers the total time you can stay cloaked.

Also to note about the stealth mod, is that it doesn't reduce signature when your sig is negative...it increases it, as if its trying to get your sig closer to 0 rather than making it low as possible. I havent tested it but im assuming the brood aruas do the same thing because it is the same effect.




The first one is unintended.
The 2nd one is related to the cloak gadget needing 0 sig to cloak.
Thus increasing your sig when at negative sig.

[ This Message was edited by: The Fridge on 2014-01-07 13:44 ]




Not when cloaking or cloaked already.. just sitting there or flying etc. The enh/aura says sig reduction, and isn't kluth only. Once your sig is negative, it is adding to your sig.
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