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 Author [Beta] Utility Ship Layout Feedback
SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral

Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
Posted: 2011-05-04 00:53   
Quote:

On 2011-05-03 22:21, GA Soulless wrote:
Quote:

On 2011-05-03 21:57, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
Quote:

On 2011-05-03 19:29, Defiance*XO* wrote:
Jim.... whats with your obsession with removing sheilds from ICC ships?

talking directly about the extractor...

You know what makes icc ships good? They cannot be pecked to death....


not... a huge deal.. as ill be building plats to sit on to augment my defences as i mine.
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance*XO* on 2011-05-03 19:41 ]



Actually this is a buff, the armor plates are counted as "full" arc. Shields added will also be counted as full arc, but they can't be repaired and they have less hp. Since they are already Full arc there is no possible redirecting of shields.




because of that change its weaker than the other two counterparts



The UGTO and ICC extractors are exactly the same. 100%
The Kluth one has cloaking and ahr instead of another armor plate.
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Azure Prower
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 14, 2006
Posts: 309
Posted: 2011-05-04 02:00   
Does it really matter? Almost 100% of the time, extractors are one alpha kills.
[ This Message was edited by: Azure Prower on 2011-05-04 02:00 ]
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
Posted: 2011-05-04 13:19   
1) ST-10 Cargo Transport, Cargo Carrier, C-263 Cargo Transport can be safely removed as midshipman can use Extractor. They're not neccessary at all.
We already have too many ships, half of them are not frequently used in game and why should we have more?

2) Mining beam and Tractor should have full-arc.
Oh please, engineer has more things to care. It should be ready to jump ASAP when a Luth dread uncloak, therefore fore-arc mining beam seems deadly. I'm afraid, from the eye of a player who is fond of building, this is rather annoying than making game more interesting.
And tractor beam? Due to latency, it's best to have full-arc tractor beam.
Since tractor beam can replace with mining beam, therefore both should have full-arc angle.

3) Advanced Engineer needs 2 full-arc mining beams as default and 3 build drones. 2 mining beams & 1 tractor and 2 build drones is quite unfavorable.
Maybe you can assign 2 build drones to command dread as it is slow and doesn't have repair drone as command station, thus it needs to build faster command station.
We don't request command dread/station to build faster than Advance Engineer. We love fast construction, that's why we pick Advance Engineer, indeed.
I hope 3 factions advance engineer all have 3 build drones.

4) I'm sorry but I fail to understand why Heavy Supply Ship needs 2 dual-arc tractor beam. Let the extractor/engineer/cargo kills the platform with its tractor beam. I also feel 1 build drone on Ultimate Worker is definitely hilarious. Ultimate Worker - no mining/tractor beam, 2 cargo rooms - builds platform? LOL
I hope Heavy Supply shall have 3 repair drone and no mining/tractor beam. Like Advanced Engineer, Heavy Supply should provide the utmost service in its field.
You may design 2 repair drone on Support Station instead of 3. In such case, the heavy supply worths its name and its role.
With an exception to Ultimate Worker, I never use heavy human supply ship in the mean time because I think, why should I use heavy supply - only 2 repair drone? Support station has 3, attacking while repairing at the same time, more prestige.
I'm afraid the mobile ability of Heavy Supply is not the main reason to use it instead of support station. In a support station, you don't have to take risk flying amongst the battle, but you still seek for prestige by spamming mislles/fighters/core weapons. Then the battle ends, the ships come back to you, asking for reparation, and there you have 3 repair drones. Rofl.

I'm stick with support station because I consider I'll gain more supply prestige in support station than heavy supply. However I still want to use heavy supply, with a new design that surpasses support station in supply zone. My idea maybe unreasonable, but hopefully you understand why I say so.

Don't worry about build/repair drone on Engineer/Supply. I bet many players will state like me - Command Dread/Station doesn't need to have more drones than the small ship. On the opposite, there ought to be a big wave of complaint if the free ship is not as horrific as they were.
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2011-05-04 13:32 ]
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light


Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
Posted: 2011-05-04 14:55   
two full arc sheilds are far more defencive than two full arc armor regardless of HP.... or are you saying icc as a whole are
Sheilds have resistances that make up for the 1/2 hp of armor.
(its not actualy 1/2 hp.. but it is less)
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance*XO* on 2011-05-04 15:06 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral

Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
Posted: 2011-05-04 17:44   
Quote:

On 2011-05-04 13:19, chlorophyll wrote:
1) ST-10 Cargo Transport, Cargo Carrier, C-263 Cargo Transport can be safely removed as midshipman can use Extractor. They're not neccessary at all.
We already have too many ships, half of them are not frequently used in game and why should we have more?

2) Mining beam and Tractor should have full-arc.
Oh please, engineer has more things to care. It should be ready to jump ASAP when a Luth dread uncloak, therefore fore-arc mining beam seems deadly. I'm afraid, from the eye of a player who is fond of building, this is rather annoying than making game more interesting.
And tractor beam? Due to latency, it's best to have full-arc tractor beam.
Since tractor beam can replace with mining beam, therefore both should have full-arc angle.

3) Advanced Engineer needs 2 full-arc mining beams as default and 3 build drones. 2 mining beams & 1 tractor and 2 build drones is quite unfavorable.
Maybe you can assign 2 build drones to command dread as it is slow and doesn't have repair drone as command station, thus it needs to build faster command station.
We don't request command dread/station to build faster than Advance Engineer. We love fast construction, that's why we pick Advance Engineer, indeed.
I hope 3 factions advance engineer all have 3 build drones.

4) I'm sorry but I fail to understand why Heavy Supply Ship needs 2 dual-arc tractor beam. Let the extractor/engineer/cargo kills the platform with its tractor beam. I also feel 1 build drone on Ultimate Worker is definitely hilarious. Ultimate Worker - no mining/tractor beam, 2 cargo rooms - builds platform? LOL
I hope Heavy Supply shall have 3 repair drone and no mining/tractor beam. Like Advanced Engineer, Heavy Supply should provide the utmost service in its field.
You may design 2 repair drone on Support Station instead of 3. In such case, the heavy supply worths its name and its role.
With an exception to Ultimate Worker, I never use heavy human supply ship in the mean time because I think, why should I use heavy supply - only 2 repair drone? Support station has 3, attacking while repairing at the same time, more prestige.
I'm afraid the mobile ability of Heavy Supply is not the main reason to use it instead of support station. In a support station, you don't have to take risk flying amongst the battle, but you still seek for prestige by spamming mislles/fighters/core weapons. Then the battle ends, the ships come back to you, asking for reparation, and there you have 3 repair drones. Rofl.

I'm stick with support station because I consider I'll gain more supply prestige in support station than heavy supply. However I still want to use heavy supply, with a new design that surpasses support station in supply zone. My idea maybe unreasonable, but hopefully you understand why I say so.

Don't worry about build/repair drone on Engineer/Supply. I bet many players will state like me - Command Dread/Station doesn't need to have more drones than the small ship. On the opposite, there ought to be a big wave of complaint if the free ship is not as horrific as they were.
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2011-05-04 13:32 ]


1. The cargo tranny is to blitz and get troops to the planet as fast as you can without forsaking all armor.

2. The devs wanted the use of tractor beams, so they made it have different arcs than mining beams.

3. Unfortunatly they think 3 build drones are too much.

4. Same as #3.

I actually would agree with you, but there may be potential QQing about 3 supply drone suppies repping the BS,
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal

Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
Posted: 2011-05-04 18:11   
Who knows, maybe the Supply Stations will lose a repair drone. Don't compare these ships to the stations, they're completely different classes.

The fore-arc mining and tractor beams are likely to force you to face the planet during mining operations, so that you can no longer face away from the planet while mining and comfortably jumping away, but I may be wrong.

Also:

- 4x Fore-arc Mining Beam (8 pts)
- 2x Dual-arc Tractor Beam (6 pts) ( 1 AP, 1 AS )
- 1x Full-arc Tractor Beam (5 pts)

Note how single-arc beams cost 2 pts, whereas dual arcs cost 3 pts each. A full-arc costs 5 pts.

- 2x Fore-arc Mining Beam (4 pts)
- 1x Aft-arc Tractor Beam (2 pts)

On an Advanced Engineer, which would become 1 Mining Beam slot with 1 surplus point under your suggestion. I dunno, I'd rather have two facing foreward than one facing in all directions.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
Posted: 2011-05-05 08:59   
If the new Command Carrier layouts stay and Engineers don't get some kind of advantage over them then they have literally been reduced to nothing more than stepping stones to get the gold Engineer badge needed to use a CC.

Before anyone says it, no, build drone enhancements are not an answer since they lower the build pres gained in exchange for speeding up construction.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
Posted: 2011-05-05 11:52   
Well, I miss the cap point. Thanks for reminding me, Bard.
On the 2nd thought, I think it would be best to have 2 dual-arc (F & A) on engineer.

SpaceAdmiral guesses devs put tractor beam on engineer for somewhat useage. However, after-arc tractor beam is definitely dangerous for the user. In case you tractor platform onto planet, you need to look forward to avoid hitting planet before the plat. Therefore, I think after-arc tractor beam is such a careless design.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights


Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
Posted: 2011-05-05 11:57   
If you want to tractor platforms into planets just switch a mining beam for a tractor beam, then you can push them ahead of you instead of towing.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
Posted: 2011-05-05 12:53   
Then why should we have a after-arc tractor beam in the beginning? It won't be good to tractor something behind you as you will encouter problem with camera.

Well, I like engineer, and I prefer human advanced engineer to luth one. Of course more building prestige when in Luth AE but hey, I'm bored and tired of waiting. For the sake of builder, please allow 3 build drones. We enjoy our construction map, we don't care much about building prestige.

Normally I'm not so sure with my suggestion, but this time I'm pretty sure that 3 build drones and 3 repair drones will satisfy most players. Other gadgets like weapon, armor are not crucial at all.

Perhaps command dread shall have 2 build drone, 1 mining beam and 1 tractor beam, 1 repair drone. But that's the future. As for now, this is my wish of advanced engineer and heavy supply.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
Posted: 2011-05-06 04:19   
the ultimate worker:

that one build- drone is a nice addition but the trade-off are really bad
the ship was used to be able to take on destroyers itself but now it have almost no firepower left
also the armor is one ring, with a large gap at the rear

but worst of all: it doesnt have a tractro/mining beam to get ressources for building
so it have to get em by either other players, or by loading em from a starport
and its 2unit-cargo is only enough for (max) 4 or 5 platforms

so whats the purpose of this (former) great ship ? sitting at the back, repairing damaged buildings and damaged ship comming back from the front? i dont see any other
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doda *EP5 no longer exception...*
Grand Admiral

Joined: December 11, 2005
Posts: 1012
From: happy land
Posted: 2011-05-06 04:37   
Quote:

On 2011-05-06 04:19, NoBoDx wrote:
the ultimate worker:

that one build- drone is a nice addition but the trade-off are really bad
the ship was used to be able to take on destroyers itself but now it have almost no firepower left
also the armor is one ring, with a large gap at the rear

but worst of all: it doesnt have a tractro/mining beam to get ressources for building
so it have to get em by either other players, or by loading em from a starport
and its 2unit-cargo is only enough for (max) 4 or 5 platforms

so whats the purpose of this (former) great ship ? sitting at the back, repairing damaged buildings and damaged ship comming back from the front? i dont see any other



Why exactly should kluth get a special supply ship that is capable of beating combat ships? If anything id say the high firepower in a supply ship was probably an oversight. Supply ships should excell in the role of support, rather than being for firepower.
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Alcedo
Chief Marshal
*Renegade Space Marines*


Joined: June 03, 2010
Posts: 136
Posted: 2011-05-06 05:09   
Quote:

On 2011-05-04 13:19, chlorophyll wrote:
3) Advanced Engineer needs 2 full-arc mining beams as default and 3 build drones. 2 mining beams & 1 tractor and 2 build drones is quite unfavorable.
Maybe you can assign 2 build drones to command dread as it is slow and doesn't have repair drone as command station, thus it needs to build faster command station.
We don't request command dread/station to build faster than Advance Engineer. We love fast construction, that's why we pick Advance Engineer, indeed.
I hope 3 factions advance engineer all have 3 build drones.



Quote:

I hope Heavy Supply shall have 3 repair drone and no mining/tractor beam. Like Advanced Engineer, Heavy Supply should provide the utmost service in



I agree 100% with these statements


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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral

Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
Posted: 2011-05-06 16:15   
Quote:

On 2011-05-06 04:37, doda *EP5 no longer exception...* wrote:
Quote:

On 2011-05-06 04:19, NoBoDx wrote:
the ultimate worker:

that one build- drone is a nice addition but the trade-off are really bad
the ship was used to be able to take on destroyers itself but now it have almost no firepower left
also the armor is one ring, with a large gap at the rear

but worst of all: it doesnt have a tractro/mining beam to get ressources for building
so it have to get em by either other players, or by loading em from a starport
and its 2unit-cargo is only enough for (max) 4 or 5 platforms

so whats the purpose of this (former) great ship ? sitting at the back, repairing damaged buildings and damaged ship comming back from the front? i dont see any other



Why exactly should kluth get a special supply ship that is capable of beating combat ships? If anything id say the high firepower in a supply ship was probably an oversight. Supply ships should excell in the role of support, rather than being for firepower.




the ultimate worker should getting special, since its rank/badge-requirements were a little bit higher than ugto/icc supplys

but the main-downside is,that the ultimate worker can build, but cant mine ressources itself and its cargo is quite tiny (same size as scouts or frigs) which is definatly too small for any building operations

btw, the tier3 engie for icc also lacks (at least) a mining beam

[ This Message was edited by: NoBoDx on 2011-05-06 16:18 ]
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
Posted: 2011-05-08 05:49   
I've tested the engineer again, and I want to discuss.

Before we start, this topic should go to Beta Testing Discussion. Sorry for troll, let's be serious.

After some considerations, I have some suggestions to the engineers.

In general, we have 2 kinds of engineer: BASIC and ADVANCE. In the current beta:
- BASIC has no mining beam, 1 build drone.
- ADVANCE has 2 fore mining beam, 1 aft tractor beam, 2 build drones.

Before judge, we should have a look at the sequence of building:
  1. At the beginning, the planet is nearly empty, resource is very low. The engineer has to mine while building. Resource is utmost needed, therefore mining beam is required.
  2. After the set-up, the planet itself can generate resource fast enough, if the engineer care to build some mines/factories. Now, time is the only trouble, thus build drone is crucial.

From this sequence,
- ADVANCE suits step 1 & 2.
- BASIC doesn't suit any step.

This is illogical.
I understand that each ship should serve a unique role, and all of them must be most useful at distinguishing circumstance. So BASIC and ADVANCE engineer should share pros and cons in building field.

With the comment from Bard:
Quote:
On 2011-05-04 18:11, Bardiche wrote:
The fore-arc mining and tractor beams are likely to force you to face the planet during mining operations, so that you can no longer face away from the planet while mining and comfortably jumping away, but I may be wrong.

I agree that the engineer shall get reward for taking risk.
I come up with the general layouts:

BASIC
  • 1 Jump Drive
  • 2 AFE/AME Drive
  • 5 Defensive System: ST-11 Full, F, L, R, A; Drone Engineer F, L, R, A, AHR; ME-110 1 shield per F, L, R, A and 1 full armor
  • 2 Mining beams: 1 Front Left, 1 Front Right
  • 1 Front Tractor beam.
  • 1 Build Drone.
  • Other gadgets to sum up to 73.

Front tractor beam used at begining of scenario to destroy platform or can shift to mining beam.
You face the planet, you get 3 mining beams; you turn, you get 2 or 0. Resource in exchange for risk.

ADVANCE
  • 1 Jump Drive
  • 2 AFE/AME Drive
  • 4 Defensive System: ST-12 F, L, R, A; Advance Drone F, L, R, AHR; ME-115 1 shield per F, L, R, A.
  • 3 build drones.
  • Other gadgets to sum up to 73.

Here it is, advance can only be used after some planets are set up and resource-ready for fast building. Without resource, you must pick the BASIC again. Both ships are useful at different circumstances.

In ME-117 case, I object supply drone. It's silly for an engineer to stay and repair ship/platform when an invasion is incoming, or flying amongst the group during a battle. There is no tractor beam so why bother building platform as the group may move on?
In my opinion, a front-arc neutrol/bio bomb is reasonable. Since 1.6, there are many times I have been repairing structures when red inf are still on planet. Bombing them while waiting for building with 2 build drone is wonderful. And again, you must face the planet to bomb inf.

There is other way to force player to pick the BASIC: resource of launching ship. The BASIC engineer and BASIC supply should be free, while the ADVANCE engineer or HEAVY supply cost about 5000 resource.
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2011-05-08 10:43 ]
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