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major issue with K'Luth |
Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
|  Posted: 2005-06-28 07:37
no beep.
nonono beep. have the only warning an enemy ship is about to rape you is your friends screaming at you.
about the jumping while cloaked.... Give it to the luth. then give Planet sensors the ability to see luth from a certain distance even when thier cloaked.
now this wouldnt affect trannys too bad because they have to decloak to drop inf anyway (or so im told) and bombers may be able to line up thier runs in peace, but they wont get the entire drive in as a freebie.
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Beast
Cadet
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: May 27, 2002
Posts: 345
From: Wouldnt you like to know
| Posted: 2005-06-29 01:41
Backslash let me just say this once for you to tell me I dont know how to use a ship is a insult. Secondly Unlike your spacebar smashing Eads,which has never changed in tactic style. Once again Kluth will have to reajust there thinking. AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!! I say Kluth have to change tactics NOT YOU!!!!!
While most of the changes are for the better some are just plain silly. More or less Dev giving into the cry babies so they will shut up.
So whats BS UGTO getting big buff or Kluth Getting nurfed AGAIN!!! and having to change tactics yet again.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-06-29 05:01
Try hitting spacebar over and over in an EAD, see how long you last for energy.
Also, I went around in a mandy, owning everyone I saw...Nerf? I think not.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2005-06-29 05:54 ]
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Tridgit
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 20, 2004
Posts: 24
From: Canada
| Posted: 2005-06-29 05:31
enough bickering please. lets keep this a discussion about the issue with K'Luth, not about who can 'omfgpwnzor" who.
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-06-29 06:03
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On 2005-06-28 07:00, Mithrandir wrote:
And while its true that you have to reveal yourself when you jump in, I was still having to struggle a bit to fight kluth when they'd drop in and out of visibility.
A nice option would be while decloaking, you get the beep and you can see them appearing... but you can't target them until they're fully decloaked - basically, you're even in terms of who gets to fire first. Seems a decent balance.
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The target diamond not appearing until they are fully uncloaked would work pretty good.
I was playing K'luth with the 7-10 second decloak timer on the mandy and siphon. They are awesome. I was having so much fun I have been considering going K'luth for a while when this hits release.
There are serious issues concenred with certain devices working while cloaked, which is why we have been forced to restrict their use as it gives the faction and extremely unfair advantage. As it is I think K'luth are nearly there now. They aren't so weak that they can't fight if thier cloak is somehow disabled, Two K'luth working together on the same targets will take each ship down rapidly and, in my view, this is how they are supposed to work.
Across the board people need to learn hte importance of focus fire on a single target. This is a big change from the current release where you can go 1v1 and still hope to acheive quick kills.
I think so far the dev's have done an excellent job with the K'luth and with the correct math for the cloak/uncloak they should be perfect.
[ This Message was edited by: Drafell on 2005-06-29 06:12 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-06-29 06:52
Ditto to what Draf said.
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Drow
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 06, 2003
Posts: 449
From: USA, WI
| Posted: 2005-06-29 18:50
ditto also.
If K'luth are a first strike, how do you strike first? When you decloak you have a few seconds of the enemy detecting you and shooting you first, while you have to wait for the cloak to fully disengage before you can fire.
So you fire 2nd.
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Thorium
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 05, 2004
Posts: 185
| Posted: 2005-06-29 19:42
ya... 2 on 1... we have the people for that... come on now...
ugto - mid ground, for the most part the ships look bang on... love ugto ships atm... like to see all emp wepons to be ugto only
icc - deffencive, for many this means planet camping and the ships do well in that role... however stronger shields and more power (or less power drain from the shields) would bring them up to the lvl of the other factions in that they would be able to fight on any terms as the other factions can (that would be nice imo)... would like to see all defenceive equipment icc only
k'luth - all attack, how ever im seeing near ugto type ships... nearly the same on armor and wepons... id rather have realy weak ships with a hell of a punch and a masive power drain... insta uncloak/timed recloak, jumping while cloaked would like to see all AM/psi based equipment K'luth only
after all there are 3 factions and they sould be different from each other... more so than what we have atm...
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2005-06-29 22:21
In a dessie, modded to full level, I worked in behind a BD. Was in perfect position. Then I screwed up and decloaked. Before I was able to lock on, the BD had spun around nearly 180 degrees, and we alpha'd the same time.
Took 2 clavates and an advanced carrier and hit a 9 defense planet. Did ok damage. Carrier died 2 out of three times though. Seems no armor means no bombing. Shame it has the most bomb slots (3). Tried with Wasp units, and tbh, since they fire mirv type bombs, I found them impractical for use with bio payload. A colony carries the most fighters, and only did 3% damage. These were upgraded, and only reason they did it was I was COBing them to flood the PD. As far as I remember, the telekentics go faster than any ship we have, (or it may have been energy issues) and aren't cloudable. 7 ecm can't cover a single dread, so the amount of ship based ecm nessecary to ECM bomb is phenominal, and quite possibly a tool removed from Kluth's arsenal at this time. I can't see how we can stay at the planet long enough to cap it if enemy shows up, or any way to cloud it w/o a massive amount of bombers or ecm ships. Planetary defense is too powerful on PD ability for all but a very large fleet of kluth to deal with, from what I am seeing.
Reflective armor will ultimately be our downfall, I am afraid. I can take a stock Nest, with the lasers that are on that thing, and NEVER kill a modded sensor frig. (ask Charz) Granted, my nest was stock. But tbh, in MV, you won't see a whole lot of ships modded with assault rupters at l10 at these prices, but I bet you will find armor and shields modded that high. Our HEAVY reliance on beams vs the HIGH abilities of reflective armor plus our near-nothing energy drains are going to be big trouble in large ship engagements.
And that's because of the beacon. Nice that it can be "repped" away, but any Kluth getting beaconed is dead if he doesn't have a bunch of help. Energy reserves spent, armor gone, smoking tail pipe.....and beaconed. If you are near a planet, of anti ship fighters are on you, just get ready to strap a mining extractor on.
OK. One last thing. I have to officially rip this one off, because I really feel that this is a root to the problem. I log into ICC, I see new skins, ships, and gadgets that seem to be effective. I log into UGTO, I see new ships, skins and gadgets that seem to be effective. I log into Kluth, I see no new ships, no new skins, hastily reworked reconfigs, and new gadgets w/o descriptions or even VISIBLE EFFECT. I mean, WTH, UGTO didn't have ENOUGH carriers, so they had to get that new one? Oh, nice effects on that QST. Ever look at that cheeseball stellar? WTH does it even do, besides drain my energy? And a DAMN lot of it for the nothing I get off it.
Now, I may seem a bit angry when I write that. WELL I AM! Ya'll need to show that this isn't about the UGTO. And when I look at the efforts being put into that faction, and I see little to squat done to Kluth and ICC, it makes it hard for you to say there is no bias. VERY hard.
Shut up YOU. I don't even wanna hear it.
As it is right now, the above named issues are where we are really needing tweaks, and I am giving you real situations that I know will be seen in the MV. And I am trying everything I can think of to see what we will and will not be able to do.
As it is, DS is moving to a game system that is designed for major teamwork, which I do like, but I see nothing that is going to make newbies wanna try Kluth now more than before. Sure, we have the cloak. (rolls eyes) After the novelty of that toy wears off (10 seconds after they realize how BAD beacons are), they'll be hopping over to the faction with the most choices on ships and the most powerful weapons. Need I name which one that is?
Thought not.
I'm sorry if I am offending the devs, but I really feel it needs to be said here, as opposed to happening after release.
Azreal
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2005-06-29 22:29 ]
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Binks
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 469
| Posted: 2005-06-29 22:45
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In a dessie, modded to full level, I worked in behind a BD. Was in perfect position. Then I screwed up and decloaked. Before I was able to lock on, the BD had spun around nearly 180 degrees, and we alpha'd the same time.
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I agreem decloak it far too long. I feel cloak should have it's timer increased and decloak be lowered to 0. Why is it an exploit to instantly decloak and get the first shot in for a hit and run faction? Since when do hit and run people have to fire second?
Luth do have a lot of trouble capping planet, as it is really. The clavate definatly needs more bombs (4-5 or so) but other than that I think everything is perfect.
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Reflective armor will ultimately be our downfall, I am afraid. I can take a stock Nest, with the lasers that are on that thing, and NEVER kill a modded sensor frig. (ask Charz) Granted, my nest was stock. But tbh, in MV, you won't see a whole lot of ships modded with assault rupters at l10 at these prices, but I bet you will find armor and shields modded that high. Our HEAVY reliance on beams vs the HIGH abilities of reflective armor plus our near-nothing energy drains are going to be big trouble in large ship engagements.
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Reflective armor is far too powerful vs. beams, really annoying to tap and enemy with a missile and do 2-3% dmg, then hit em with every rupter on the scale and do 1-2% dmg...
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And that's because of the beacon. Nice that it can be "repped" away, but any Kluth getting beaconed is dead if he doesn't have a bunch of help. Energy reserves spent, armor gone, smoking tail pipe.....and beaconed. If you are near a planet, of anti ship fighters are on you, just get ready to strap a mining extractor on.
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Beacons need an easy way to be removed and a lowered effect. If a beacon could be instantly removed by a single supply, and had the effect of making your ship visable to all enemy SHIPS within 100-250 gu's...
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OK. One last thing. I have to officially rip this one off, because I really feel that this is a root to the problem. I log into ICC, I see new skins, ships, and gadgets that seem to be effective. I log into UGTO, I see new ships, skins and gadgets that seem to be effective. I log into Kluth, I see no new ships, no new skins, hastily reworked reconfigs, and new gadgets w/o descriptions or even VISIBLE EFFECT. I mean, WTH, UGTO didn't have ENOUGH carriers, so they had to get that new one? Oh, nice effects on that QST. Ever look at that cheeseball stellar? WTH does it even do, besides drain my energy? And a DAMN lot of it for the nothing I get off it.
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Actually, there's nothing wrong with the stellar, HUGE hull dmg but low armor dmg. I do agree that it's annoying for the UGTO, with 35 ships, to get another one and the luth with 20...maybe, to not get a new ship and instead have all their dreads moved to admiral or above...
Luth need some help, Uggies are the faction that seem to be most favored, and ICC seem to be strongest in the next release. Luth have the coolness factor, but that wears off the moment you decloak and get their armor destroyed before you can fire...
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-06-29 22:49
QST effect is the same as the QSB, Tael didnt make it, it was already in teh game, hence they used it.
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whateverr
Cadet
Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 173
| Posted: 2005-06-29 22:57
well Azreal, according to Jack, the DS fiction..history, states that Kluth grow their ships and it takes years... somehow they decided to grow 2 new stations so they don't have any other ships. i guess thats what he meant when he told me that.
i can guess that from the view point of devs, deciding what to do with luth is difficult. you want a faction bent on first strike and hide but it doesn't come out right, and then you gotta figure out how thats gonna apply to planet defending/capping..
cuz there's 2 sides of DS mainly, there's planet capturing/maintaining/defending and there's combat, which could be coupled with the planet defending.. eitherway ICC and UGTO are fairly easy to design given they have no real tricks to em. they are simple for the most part, you just build a frame and trow on their factions weapons.. the 2 human factions are pretty near balanced or atleast wouldn't take too muc to balance.
then you throw in this alien faction, gotta balance it somehow, it has conflicting attributes and i'd imagine it's so much a pain it's probably why they decided to play with the legion faction .. i know i would have.
think bout it. how do you balance it? the cloak/energy loss/auto-repair etc are great to balance it somewhat for combat.. then you goto consider planet capturing and well, ppl complain luth have to much power there. not sure how but it's been said. so you go and relook at those aspects of kluth.. then kluth say "now we can't fight" .. i'm not suggesting anything anymore. i'd like to see more ships but balancing the ones we have would be first on the list.
i'd like to see luth have an advanced armour like reflective but then they can fight longer which ruins the idea of Kluth... so you say stronger weapons, but then everyone says no cuz they get owned too fast "we can't shoot back, they're too uber"
the constant back and forth struggle to make kluth something worth playing and not uber or too inferior must be stressful.
i'm glad it's not me doing it
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-06-30 04:01
To dispell a rumor, the Clavate was never to have more than 2 bomb bays per Gideons document. He ment for bombing roll to shift to the Advance Carrier transport and the Clavates bombing attributes were to be augmentable by modding in Wasp Bombers.
I have change the default Larvae with Wasp's. And have deviced to give it one more bomb bay which technically means it has more ability than other bombers in its range. As such we'll test it, and if it doesnt work or is to strong then the other bay will be removed again.
Do not think we have forgotten the Kluth. There was a defined script for what we are trying to accomplesh in this patch. We have been tasked to follow it as closely as we can and make minor tweaks her and there, but are limited in just how many major diversions we can make from the script. Minor diversions are usually accomplished in 1 or 2 days. Major diversions can take weeks or months to do.
I have some ideas for the K'Luth, a couple of more ships, but its not likely they will make this patch since we are done with the major testing phases and are now closing up the loose ends to kick it out the door.
Still adjusting the math for cloak times...
Scouts and Frigates should have a 1 sec decloak 2 sec cloak time.
Destroyers should be 2 sec and 3 sec respectivaley.
Dreads 3 seconds and 5 seconds
Stations 6 decloak and 10 to cloak.
As stated before the math i was given does not seam to work right so looking at the code to get the right math factor.
After much thought, non-combat ships, should have longer decloak and cloak times, especially the Transport so planets have a chance to react. The tranny will most likely still get its troops down, but not make it out alive.
I am curious though, just how many of the Kluth Clavate pilots tried modding out with bombers before their bombing runs. If you did not do so, then you did not give the ship a good and fair testing of its strengths before coming in here and complaining. So there is a good strong case the Clavate may loose the extra bomb bay.
[ This Message was edited by: Tael on 2005-06-30 04:03 ]
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-06-30 06:13
Kluth will receive in the next update a Mine Layer frigate with a new model that is hard to see uncloaked in low light conditions. (ie, no illumination mats on purpose)
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2005-06-30 06:19
[quote]
On 2005-06-30 04:01, Tael wrote:
To dispell a rumor, the Clavate was never to have more than 2 bomb bays per Gideons document. He ment for bombing roll to shift to the Advance Carrier transport and the Clavates bombing attributes were to be augmentable by modding in Wasp Bombers.
[quote]
ANYONE SEE GIDEON HERE???? Thought not.
[quote]
I have change the default Larvae with Wasp's. And have deviced to give it one more bomb bay which technically means it has more ability than other bombers in its range. As such we'll test it, and if it doesnt work or is to strong then the other bay will be removed again.
[quote]
So we want bombers that are equivalent to the other factions, but kluth gadgets and other stuff to be much weaker than other factions. Hmmmm.
[quote]
Do not think we have forgotten the Kluth. There was a defined script for what we are trying to accomplesh in this patch. We have been tasked to follow it as closely as we can and make minor tweaks her and there, but are limited in just how many major diversions we can make from the script. Minor diversions are usually accomplished in 1 or 2 days. Major diversions can take weeks or months to do.
I have some ideas for the K'Luth, a couple of more ships, but its not likely they will make this patch since we are done with the major testing phases and are now closing up the loose ends to kick it out the door.
[quote]
Too busy giving UGTO extra goodies. It does take away from truly balancing Kluth faction I guess.
[quote]
After much thought, non-combat ships, should have longer decloak and cloak times, especially the Transport so planets have a chance to react. The tranny will most likely still get its troops down, but not make it out alive.
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Ummm. Ok, so the Advanced carrier is supposed to be a main bomber, and yet is intentionally made weak so as not to be able to survive a run? Something is very wrong with that.
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I am curious though, just how many of the Kluth Clavate pilots tried modding out with bombers before their bombing runs. If you did not do so, then you did not give the ship a good and fair testing of its strengths before coming in here and complaining. So there is a good strong case the Clavate may loose the extra bomb bay.
[quote]
I tried runs with bios, and runs with telekinetics. I modded Wasp units. And did just about nadda. Telekinetics are too weak it would appear, and Wasp units work fine, right up till they get to PD range. Then they get bug zapped. Wasp units are only semi decent if you spam them from about 200 gu away, and then they only do MINOR damage. Maybe if they had a bio type bomb, they would actually serve a purpose. Bio runs with a clavate did ok inf kills, but nothing that 5 or 6 planetary barracks couldn't replace very quickly. Again, i'm trying everything I can think of in beta, so as to work out all the buggs here. That includes experimenting with different weapon configs and fighter configs. Clavate just does not pass the stinker test. AC doesn't either.
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2005-06-30 06:24 ]
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