| Author |
Shield Enhancements |
Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
|  Posted: 2009-03-04 15:36
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Which, maybe, is the intention? Notice how either enhancement gives a 1 HP bonus to the other side. Notice further how shield bonus's are useless to UGTO, but at least somewhat useful to ICC ships as well.
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Both Shield and Armor enhancements are half as useful to ICC as Armor enhancements alone are to UGTO/K'luth.
Look at it this way, Rob. A UGTO ship with a full load of 5% Armor enhancements can get up to 40%. That's a 40% increase of their entire defenses.
An ICC ship, however, needs both Shield and Armor enhancements. We have to split our enhancements between the two, meaning we can only get a 20% increase on each of them. Even if we focus entirely on Shields or Armor, they still only make up half of our total defenses, so the 40% to one winds up being 20% overall.
Bottom line, for the same number of enhancements a UGTO or K'luth ship can get +40% to defense while an ICC ship can only get +20%.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2009-03-04 16:41
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On 2009-03-04 15:08, Jim Starluck wrote:
Exactly. That's how it should work. Otherwise ICC need twice as many Enhancements to get the same defensive strength bonus as UGTO and K'luth.
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It has nothing to do with kluth armor .Because kluth armor is weaker than standart armor . It is so easy for enemy to take down a kluth dread or station armor.
I personally, flying with mates in mv, dont see any kluth with armor enhancements. Every kluth goes for weapon enhancements since armor enhancements on kluth doesnt make much difference.
Also there is another point i want to take your attention.. Split armor enhacements for group of armor types. Ugto do mount 2 types of armor and get benefits with one enhancements for both ablative and reflective.
And do that for icc too. Make shield enhancements for icc shield which only can benefit active or reactive shields.
peace!
[ This Message was edited by: Pakhos on 2009-03-04 17:02 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2009-03-04 17:12
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Which, maybe, is the intention? Notice how either enhancement gives a 1 HP bonus to the other side. Notice further how shield bonus's are useless to UGTO, but at least somewhat useful to ICC ships as well.
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Okay, now we stack eight of them together.
Again: UGTO 2HP, ICC 1 armour HP, one shield HP.
+800% armour:
UGTO: 9*2 = 18HP.
ICC: 9*1 + 1 = 10HP.
+800% shield:
UGTO: 2HP
ICC: 9*1 + 1 = 10HP
+800% shield and armour:
UGTO: 9*2 = 18HP
ICC: 9*1 + 9*1 = 18HP
Now the differences are getting a tad larger than a mere 1HP, which in these particular examples are rather high percentage changes anyway.
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Jar Jar Binks
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 556
| Posted: 2009-03-04 17:38
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On 2009-03-04 17:12, Gejaheline wrote:
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Which, maybe, is the intention? Notice how either enhancement gives a 1 HP bonus to the other side. Notice further how shield bonus's are useless to UGTO, but at least somewhat useful to ICC ships as well.
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Okay, now we stack eight of them together.
Again: UGTO 2HP, ICC 1 armour HP, one shield HP.
+800% armour:
UGTO: 9*2 = 18HP.
ICC: 9*1 + 1 = 10HP.
+800% shield:
UGTO: 2HP
ICC: 9*1 + 1 = 10HP
+800% shield and armour:
UGTO: 9*2 = 18HP
ICC: 9*1 + 9*1 = 18HP
Now the differences are getting a tad larger than a mere 1HP, which in these particular examples are rather high percentage changes anyway.
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it would be nice to see some raw figures on just how many hitpoints each side have on their armor and/or shield 
*hint hint* jack? 
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2009-03-04 17:41
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On 2009-03-04 17:38, Jar Jar Binks wrote:
it would be nice to see some raw figures on just how many hitpoints each side have on their armor and/or shield
*hint hint* jack?
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I'm doubtful that will happen...
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Light404
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 10, 2002
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2009-03-04 22:03
Kluth may not go for armour upgrades due to their trade off of firepower+cloak versus survivabillity, but thats a personal choice, either way kluth still get a bonus that is twice as effective as when applied to an icc ship.
The fact is that armour enhancements cannot currently be applied in equal fairness across all factions, and personal choices for enchancements aside, simply applying the enhancement to shield and armour (regardless of type) would perfectly balance things out as has been pointed out, and from what I've been seeing everyone agrees on this, ICC UGTO and Kluth
In the MV, aside from a faction being completely outnumbered, I honestly believe that this is the last step to making the game completely balanced in terms of combat.
Addition--> Even though I still absolutley hate and fear the deadly effectiveness of Flux/EMP, leave them as is
and ganglias annoy me to no end but I'm getting starting to get real good at tracking you
[ This Message was edited by: Light404 on 2009-03-04 22:15 ]
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2009-03-04 22:32
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On 2009-03-04 17:12, Gejaheline wrote:
Okay, now we stack eight of them together.
Again: UGTO 2HP, ICC 1 armour HP, one shield HP.
+800% armour:
UGTO: 9*2 = 18HP.
ICC: 9*1 + 1 = 10HP.
+800% shield:
UGTO: 2HP
ICC: 9*1 + 1 = 10HP
+800% shield and armour:
UGTO: 9*2 = 18HP
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The problem here is your usage of the number (1) one.
UGTO = 4 armor hp
ICC = 2 armor hp, 2 shield hp
+100% armor
UGTO: 4*2 = 8
ICC: 2 + 2*2 = 6
+100% Shield
UGTO: 4 = 4
ICC: 2*2 + 2 = 6
+100% shield,armor
UGTO: 4*2 = 8
ICC: 2*2 + 2*2 = 8
+800% armor
UGTO: 4*9 = 36
ICC: 2 + 2*9 = 20
+800% Shield
UGTO: 4 = 4
ICC: 2*9 + 2 = 20
+800% shield,armor
UGTO: 4*9 = 36
ICC: 2*9 + 2*9 = 36
8 - 6 == 6 - 4
36 - 20 == 20 - 4
No side has an advantage. This scales up linerly no matter how high you push the %
[ This Message was edited by: Fattierob on 2009-03-04 22:33 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2009-03-04 22:55
Okay, having had it explained to my by the mathematical genius that is Fattie, I can come to the conclusion that pure shield bonuses are just as good if not better than pure armour bonuses, due to shield rotation.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2009-03-04 23:07
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On 2009-03-04 22:55, Gejaheline wrote:
Okay, having had it explained to my by the mathematical genius that is Fattie, I can come to the conclusion that pure shield bonuses are just as good if not better than pure armour bonuses, due to shield rotation.
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as a Just in case, I'm posting the full text of what I explained in the lobby.
23:40:30 Fattierob: "Basically, it boils down to 2x = x + y , where x = y, thus making it 2x = 2x, and both sides balance out"
23:48:58 Fattierob: "the math there is including armor and shield."
23:49:21 Fattierob: "let's say you did half half"
23:49:25 Fattierob: "+50% armor, +50 Shields"
23:49:33 Fattierob: "UGTO = 4 * 1.5 = 6"
23:49:41 Fattierob: "ICC = 2*1.5 + 2*1.5 = 6"
23:49:52 Fattierob: "+400% armor, +400% shields"
23:49:59 Fattierob: "UGTO = 4 * 4 = 16"
23:50:07 Fattierob: "ICC = 2 * 4 + 2 * 4 = 16"
23:50:18 Fattierob: "it doesn't make a bidoof difference"
23:50:38 Fattierob: "in this simple model, their is no inherit advantage to either side"
23:50:53 Fattierob: "but, if you want to increase the complexity, think about it like this"
23:50:59 Fattierob: "UGTO get 4 armor arcs, each at 100 hp."
23:51:07 Fattierob: "+10% armor increase means he has 110 hp at 4 armor arcs"
23:51:15 Fattierob: "you only need to do 110 HP to hull him"
23:51:25 Fattierob: "ICC gets 4 armor arcs, each at 50 hp, 4 shield archs at 50 hp"
23:51:41 Fattierob: "+10% armor = 55 hp at each armor arc, 50hp at each shield arc"
23:51:49 Fattierob: "so, you might say their is a 5hp problem here"
23:51:53 Fattierob: "buy ICC can rotate shields"
23:52:04 Fattierob: "so, in theory, at any one arc, you can have *up to* 55 + (50 * 4) hp"
23:52:17 Fattierob: "+10% shields are the same way, but it only benefits ICC"
23:52:30 Fattierob: "This is a problem of oversimplification"
23:52:36 Fattierob: "you start off with easy math, like 1 hp for a ship"
23:52:46 Fattierob: "and then evolve into the actual complexity of the "problem""
23:53:00 Fattierob: "ICC have less HP per arc, but they have rotation ability + regen"
23:53:16 Fattierob: "Armor and shield HP regeneration rate is now fixed. Enhancements affecting those stats will therefore no longer increase HP regeneration."
23:53:29 Fattierob: "Geja: My point exactly"
23:53:46 Fattierob: "pure shield enhancements give them the *exact same numerical advantage* that UGTO get with pure armor enhancements"
23:53:59 Fattierob: "discounting the ability to rotate shields"
23:54:15 Fattierob: "with shield rotation, shield enhancements are incredibly helpful"
23:54:42 Fattierob: "the only problem I see is shields taking much too long to regen, as shield HP regen is now limited"
23:54:50 Fattierob: "and ICC have no means of regening shield faster."
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2009-03-05 00:24
So clearly we need shield regeneration enhancements. 
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Light404
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 10, 2002
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2009-03-05 18:34
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On 2009-03-04 22:55, Gejaheline wrote:
Okay, having had it explained to my by the mathematical genius that is Fattie, I can come to the conclusion that pure shield bonuses are just as good if not better than pure armour bonuses, due to shield rotation.
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Geja, how can you think that a pure shield enhancement, or for that matter, a defence bonus that adds to shields and armour, gives us an unfair advantage? Shield rotation is not the issue here and cannot be factored into the topic of this thread. The only issue here is that the enhancements are not balance because shielding and armour is upgraded seperately
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2009-03-05 20:32
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On 2009-03-05 18:34, Light404 wrote:
The only issue here is that the enhancements are not balance because shielding and armour is upgraded seperately
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You could say the same for beam/torp/cannon enhancements, following that logic train.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2009-03-05 20:43
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On 2009-03-05 18:34, Light404 wrote:
Geja, how can you think that a pure shield enhancement, or for that matter, a defence bonus that adds to shields and armour, gives us an unfair advantage? Shield rotation is not the issue here and cannot be factored into the topic of this thread. The only issue here is that the enhancements are not balance because shielding and armour is upgraded seperately
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Hang on, I think I see the logic here. But I'm not sure it works.
Let's say we have a UGTO ship and an ICC ship. The UGTO ship has two plates of armor on each arc with 100 hp each, while the ICC ship has one plate of armor and one plate of shield on each arc, again with 100 hp each.
This means that while the TOTAL defense HP on both ships is 800 hp, the minimum damage to hull the UGTO ship is 200, while on the ICC ship it is 500 thanks to shield diversion.
However, the UGTO ship can get similar results by turning to present an undamaged arc. If it presented first the port, then the fore, then the starboard arcs, its minimum damage to hull would be 600. There's nothing stopping the ICC ship from doing the same once its shields are down, which gives it 700 minimum to hull.
Ultimately the ICC ship is tougher, but the UGTO ship can narrow the gap significantly by making good use of tactics. This is how it should be.
So let's look at our first case. +40% Shield and Armor on both ships.
UGTO ship gets 140 hp per armor, raising the minimum damage to hull to 280 and the total hp to 1120. If the UGTO ship turns to present undamaged armor as described above, the minimum goes to 840.
ICC ship gets 140 hp per armor and shield, raising minimum damage to hull to 700 and total hp to 1120. If the ICC ship tries to turn as well, minimum goes to 980.
Second case. 40% to Armor for UGTO, 20% to Armor and 20% to Shield for ICC.
UGTO ship gets the same as above. 140 hp per armor, minimum 280, total 1120, minimum with turning 840.
ICC ship gets 120 hp per armor and shield, minimum damage to hull to 600, total hp to 960, minimum with turning to 840.
Third case. 40% to Armor for UGTO, 40% to Shield for ICC.
UGTO ship gets the same as the first two cases. 140 hp per armor, minimum 280, total 1120, minimum with turning 840.
ICC ship gets 100 hp per armor and 140 hp per shield, raising minimum damage to hull to 660 and total hp to 960 again. Minimum with turning is 860.
Fourth case. 40% to Armor for both.
UGTO once again get 140 hp per armor, minimum 280, total 1120, minimum with turning 840.
ICC ship gets 140 hp per armor and 100 per shield, raising minimum damage to hull to 540 and total hp to 960. Minimum with turning is 820.
I note that when you account for turning undamaged armor into the line-of-fire, the second, third and fourth cases all allow the UGTO ship to match, nearly match or even slightly exceed the ICC ship's minimum damage to hull. Even if the ICC ship employs the same tactic, its original defensive advantage has shrunk to nothing, so the Enhancements have clearly helped the UGTO ship more then they have the ICC.
The first case still seems like the most balanced one to me.
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Light404
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 10, 2002
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2009-03-05 21:45
The art of shield rotation by Icc and present fresh armour arcs by ugto/luth is a skill experienced players learn to master. Those are part of the advantages/disadvantages of each race and you have to learn to deal with when fighting your opponent.
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On 2009-03-05 20:32, Fattierob wrote:
Quote:
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On 2009-03-05 18:34, Light404 wrote:
The only issue here is that the enhancements are not balance because shielding and armour is upgraded seperately
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You could say the same for beam/torp/cannon enhancements, following that logic train.
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And as for the enhancements that affect beams/torps/cannons, that is also a choice you as a player makes
is your ship beam heavy and you want to do max damage? then beam plexers, dont want to use energy? then condensors
same applies for other weapon systems
and those enhancements are balanced across all factions because there is no difference to their affect whether your ship be an icc dread, an uggie station, luth cruiser etc.
Addition-> when calculating icc armor values, it must be taken into account the icc only has one armour per arc, and in the case of a station, just one armour period, thats why we're after shield enhancements
our armour, like the kluth's is very weak. Our defensive strength as has been said before, comes from the power of the shields (at huge energy costs) and the pilots ability to balance rotation, with power with fighting.
[ This Message was edited by: Light404 on 2009-03-05 21:49 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2009-03-05 23:14
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On 2009-03-05 20:43, Jim Starluck wrote:
I note that when you account for turning undamaged armor into the line-of-fire, the second, third and fourth cases all allow the UGTO ship to match, nearly match or even slightly exceed the ICC ship's minimum damage to hull. Even if the ICC ship employs the same tactic, its original defensive advantage has shrunk to nothing, so the Enhancements have clearly helped the UGTO ship more then they have the ICC.
The first case still seems like the most balanced one to me.
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You're correct, to a degree, Jim.
You've also got to keep in mind that whilst rotating your ship to face the enemy is all well and good, you still have a bare arc which will immediately take damage if you can't manouevre, and using your rear arc to take damage will cause your offensive power to plummet, as well as giving the enemy a massive tactical advantage.
On the other hand, ICC shields are much easier to orient to face incoming damage, and in order to reduce one arc to zero you will have to reduce ALL shield arcs to zero first, plus ICC have a layer of armour beneath that to absorb damage if an arc comes under unexpected attack, which can absorb damage until the shields are redirected.
So, yes, UGTO can potentially exceed the defensive power of ICC, but they will almost certainly take damage doing so, and it's much harder to pull off as well as potentially compromising their offence. An ICC ship can happily pour most of its armour-equivalent into its front arc while it charges directly towards you. Or stands back and fills you with missiles, as the case may be.
In a long-range fight, the ICC would quite happily win because it could just keep facing the enemy with its main guns, enjoying four times the HP and four times the regeneration on its single at-risk arc, wheras an UGTO ship would have to turn to direct its armour plates each time one suffered, which would consequently affect its ability to damage the enemy and limit its movement options.
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