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Bring back the configurable ship! |
NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
|  Posted: 2011-04-24 03:34
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On 2011-04-24 00:14, Nova Team wrote:
um it already copy and paste......... you see someone doing good with an enh setup everyone goes and buy that set up....alot more unikness back then but whatever. and please tell me how it rock paper and sissors now?
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Rogues are scissors. Warriors are rock. Hunters, Paladins, Priests, Druids, Mages and Shamans are paper. Warlocks are mushrooms. Paper beats rock. Scissors beat paper. Scissors also happen to beat rock until rock hits 60 at which point rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine and then also beats paper, and would beat scissors. But it can't find scissors, because scissors are invisible. So scissors beat paper, and avoid rock. And that is called : "Balance"
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but seroiusly a game that. big wont ever be balanced because players will always find ways to exploit game-mechanics
the "good old days" when you were able to modify the ship anyway you want were cool but only because you could make a ship op and obliberate (almost) any other ship
some other games have more modding-options (e.g. eve online) but there are
a) more devs working on patches/ balance
b) payment for those devs
c) also limits for gadgets (eg eve: each gadget require energy and cpu which are always not enough)
d) almost all onlinegames (except shooters) are based on RNG where the devs could finetune with a secret wheel to adjust damage dealt/ damage taken ... and so on
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-04-24 03:37
Rogues are scissors. Warriors are rock. Hunters, Paladins, Priests, Druids, Mages and Shamans are paper. Warlocks are mushrooms. Paper beats rock. Scissors beat paper. Scissors also happen to beat rock until rock hits 60 at which point rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine and then also beats paper, and would beat scissors. But it can't find scissors, because scissors are invisible. So scissors beat paper, and avoid rock. And that is called : "Balance"
this is eppic 
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Gerlach
Marshal
Joined: May 07, 2010
Posts: 78
| Posted: 2011-04-24 03:39
That's WoW balance, but also fits here... somewhat:
K'Luth are scissors. UGTO are rock. Pirates, Gaifen, Energy Entities, Crystaline Entities and ICC are paper. MI are mushrooms. Scissors beat paper. Scissors also happen to beat rock until rock jumps into station at which point rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine and then also beats paper, and would beat scissors. But it can't find scissors, because scissors are invisible. So scissors beat paper, and avoid rock. And that is called : "Balance"
[ This Message was edited by: Gerlach on 2011-04-24 03:45 ]
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-04-24 04:33
i like the original better.
Really did not need a breakdown, i knew exactly what he was getting at.
Some pple  Joke is not funny if you have to explain the punch line
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2011-04-24 06:32
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On 2011-04-23 20:44, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
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On 2011-04-23 20:31, Azreal (Ret) wrote:
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On 2011-04-23 07:13, Enterprise wrote:
And having to balance the general theme of each faction against each other with this new system, and making sure its fair.
-Ent
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Hasn't happened in seven years, and I have never seen the balance MORE out of whack than I do now. I lose hope now because the mantra and official line is "all is fine", when all is NOT fine.
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Balance is more out of whack because of numbers. In a strictly pvp game nnumbers have a huge impact, and usually the one with the most numbers win.
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It has alot more to do with numbers than anything else.
It also has to do with a few other small factors, but yes, mostly numbers.
Any faction that has more people than another has a much much better chance of succeeding. There is pretty strong balance, but there are a few snags in the game that I think need to be worked out.
Firstly, we really really need to balance the numbers in the MV. That involves alot of different aspects but it mostly has to do with the fact that some factions are easier to play than others. And that theres little to no point in actually holding planets beyond one system.
Change those things up, and you get more even numbers, and you get more balanced gameplay. The problem lies with the layouts as they stand, and some mechanics that make some factions much easier to play. Once depot spamming doesn't give UGTO and KLuth an overwhelming advantage and they for god's sake give ICC some kind of decent advantage, then you'll start seeing the numbers balance themselves out. People will always gravitate to the faction that has a nice balance of ease of play and power. Thats why UGTO gets the most.
Then you really need to keep those numbers in check. Throw in some loyalty, and keep fleetless players from jumping factions too quickly to throw off the numbers game. Because it is a numbers game, until something other than dreads and stations are the best ships to use in all situations (not going to happen).
Once that gets all worked out, I'd be really happy to see more modding options. Not modding as it was, but being able to switch out a short range, high damage pcannon with a more long range, less falloff, but less overall damage pcannon, and so on. Customization within limits.
But until the numbers get sorted out, and until its just as viable to fly a cruiser as it is a station, and any faction is as easy and fun to play as any other, anything else is pointless. It really is about numbers at the end of it, and the best balance in the game is a fair fight.
-Ent
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Thugomatic
Chief Marshal
Joined: August 11, 2003
Posts: 166
From: Missoula Montana
| Posted: 2011-04-24 06:37
Bleh, thats all I can think now. I guess if there is no possibility of bringing modding back than there's no point too me sticking around here anymore, clearly we are supposed to be stuck inside a box without the ability of ever thinking outside of it. The IQ required too play this game now has dropped considerably, so I guess thats a step in the right direction.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-04-24 09:08
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On 2011-04-24 06:32, Enterprise wrote:
It has alot more to do with numbers than anything else.
It also has to do with a few other small factors, but yes, mostly numbers.
Any faction that has more people than another has a much much better chance of succeeding. There is pretty strong balance, but there are a few snags in the game that I think need to be worked out.
Firstly, we really really need to balance the numbers in the MV. That involves alot of different aspects but it mostly has to do with the fact that some factions are easier to play than others. And that theres little to no point in actually holding planets beyond one system.
Change those things up, and you get more even numbers, and you get more balanced gameplay. The problem lies with the layouts as they stand, and some mechanics that make some factions much easier to play. Once depot spamming doesn't give UGTO and KLuth an overwhelming advantage and they for god's sake give ICC some kind of decent advantage, then you'll start seeing the numbers balance themselves out. People will always gravitate to the faction that has a nice balance of ease of play and power. Thats why UGTO gets the most.
Then you really need to keep those numbers in check. Throw in some loyalty, and keep fleetless players from jumping factions too quickly to throw off the numbers game. Because it is a numbers game, until something other than dreads and stations are the best ships to use in all situations (not going to happen).
Once that gets all worked out, I'd be really happy to see more modding options. Not modding as it was, but being able to switch out a short range, high damage pcannon with a more long range, less falloff, but less overall damage pcannon, and so on. Customization within limits.
But until the numbers get sorted out, and until its just as viable to fly a cruiser as it is a station, and any faction is as easy and fun to play as any other, anything else is pointless. It really is about numbers at the end of it, and the best balance in the game is a fair fight.
-Ent
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Balance. Such a touchy issue.
With the current ships and player numbers situation, the solution to balance is to implement
- Ships class limits (limit the numbers of dreads or stations per server)
- Forced team balance for unfleeted players, either by rank or by player numbers
These things are already happening in PvP games, especially shooters. But not here apparently.
Why? I don't know.
People are screaming about imbalance. Screaming about number of players... ICC being a ghosttown, UGTO being crowded.
And yet, when limits are suggested, everyone says "No, I want to be able to fly the ship I want and go to the team I want". In short, they want balance, but don't want to make the sacrifices needed themselves. 
It's always someone else or something else which should change, and not what they're comfortable with at the moment.
One wonders if the problem is the game, or the players themselves.
Edit:
And yeah. I also agree that ICC needs some kinda buff. Both in defense and offense. They're like neutered rats right now.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-04-24 09:09 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-04-24 09:17
Actually I've also been thinking. Ships are kinda configurable right now. Minimally so. You can choose between missile types for their slots. Cannon types too.
Maybe what can be done is to introduce
- More weapon subtypes.
eg. Cannons: PSI / Plasma .... that's current.
Add 2 more types of cannons which have diff damage figures or ratings.
And then, make the slots reconfigurable according to their types. And the individual weapon subtypes taking up points or slots.
Eg: A Siphon has currently 4 PSI cannon slots.
Let's say that a PSI cannon takes 3 slots each. That would mean that the Siph has 12 slots for cannons. A plasma cannon also take 3 slots each, that's why they're swappable.
Maybe a new cannon can be introduced. Let's call it a Flak cannon. It takes up only 2 slots, does less damage and has shorter range, but has a higher ROF. Useful perhaps to deal with small ships who close in for the attack. So you can fit 6 of these in, to the 12 slots for cannons on the Siph.
On the flip side, you can have a powerful weap called... eg, Shock cannon. Has long range and heavy damage, but a painfully slow ROF. Takes 6 slots. So you can only fit 2 of these on the Siph.
In short, you can customize your weaps, but only according to their class types. You won't end up with a Torpedo dread or Flux dessie.
Just an idea, but it's a compromise between all out customization and whacking out the balance. The weaps of course have to be designed carefully.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-04-24 09:19 ]
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2011-04-24 21:47
instead of increasing the number of cannons, you could simply increase the amount of bullets (eg flack cannon fires 5 bullets,while the high damage one simply shoots 1 bullet)
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-04-24 22:09
Quote:
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On 2011-04-24 21:47, NoBoDx wrote:
instead of increasing the number of cannons, you could simply increase the amount of bullets (eg flack cannon fires 5 bullets,while the high damage one simply shoots 1 bullet)
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I mean, yeah. That too. Whatever. However the devs wanna design weaps is up to them.
My point being that where the old customization system allowed you to replace every slot with any weapon, we should simply have more weapon types with varying power and ranges and etc, and allow players to swap weapons only within their types.
Think of it as a compromise.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-04-24 22:10 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2011-04-24 23:24
I never saw a any weapon any slot system.
It was, if you had the enemy factory planet, you could swap torps for torps, (and missles or flux waves, which was BAD). Or want an amjd on an EAD? If you had the enemy factory, OR, you got it dropped in space, you could do it.
Beams were non swappable. Everyone had the same armor. It was all about fighters, misles, torps, and cannons.
There were some wild combos too. And there were times when it sucked. But again, u die, ship bye bye. And when you see a particularly pain in the ass ship, well, that was what Wolf liked to do - take them out. Carrier dread spitting larves? Kill it. MD with psi! Whack him down.
Damn, that EAD musta had an amjd....
Bomber dread using bios....
Oh wait, did I mention, you could scan the other guy's equipment, so you could see what they had. (ICC must have really been hard as hell then, busy hands all the time)
I think the thing that I don't like about the change is it was done along with the weapons leveling. A double whammy. It was like a DS NGE. Horrible. And like SWG NGE, you have your favorers and detractors.
I still think, personally, that what DS gave the gameworld by .482 was so unique. I haven't liked the game as much since, although I did like the changes in 1.5. There is just a part of me that keeps my eye on the mmo board for a game comparable to the old DS. Sue me. I miss it.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-04-24 23:42
OK, bad explanation on my part earlier. Better to explain in points then..
- More weapon types per class
- Each weap type have different slot points, so you can fit more of a weaker weap, or less of a more powerful weap
- No, you shouldn't be able to fit on an enemy weapon no matter what
- No u shouldn't be able to swap weap types (eg. interchange missiles and torps)
Can't go back to the old customization system, so the next best thing is to introduce more weaps types.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2011-04-25 03:34
If you type on search box about "modding" ,"add more ships", "weapon levels", i bet you can find my posts of 2008-9 arguing to death with Jack why they need to bring back modding or add more weapon systems .
Their reason is simple. Old system was broken and they couldnt achieve the balance between factions. Now , if we go back to version .481-2 we can see darkspace was so unbalanced for each faction, at some point we had to create our own balance using so called technic "correct fit".
If we need to start(1 example for faction):
1- Claw was so uber , it could take on any dread as long as it was a 1vs1 situation. Full of torps,chemical lasers,speed was the best friend for a claw.
2- Then ugto found a way to avoid kluth small ships. They used full flux fitted assault destroyers. It only take to push "V" to activate all the flux waves on the ship and kill everything destroyer below within 500 gu. Regardless cloaked or not.
3- ICC was master of defense. Using armor instead of shield, building full torp assault cruisers, or even full emp,fusion,am torp mix on any ship and pulse them in a safe spot was the deal.
[Removed]
Please don't make-up your own stories about what happened, it paints the wrong picture.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2011-04-25 05:04 ]
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jamesbob
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 22, 2009
Posts: 410
| Posted: 2011-04-25 03:47
has anyone else relise that after every bad decision most of the fan base complain about it so another bad decision gets put in so half the player base leaves.
then they bring in another bad decision instead of fixing bugs and that creating more problems.
yes i am refering to the defence system now.
planet control great.
defence bases suck and always will. unless they decide to roll back.
in regeards to ship configing i honestly prefer this system to the old one
because at least it can not be abused.
i do not care about grammer anymore.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-04-25 04:02
That's why perhaps the devs could reconsider a limited form of customization. In fact, just adding more weapon subtypes would already make things more interesting simply by giving it an illusion of more choices. LOL.
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