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let see if we can help balancing the game |
Reznor
Marshal
Joined: March 29, 2010
Posts: 316
|  Posted: 2011-08-13 00:33
I think I'm going to stand up and say I LOVE this build.
K'luth have been utterly BROKEN for ages. Now they....aren't. They aren't gods toying with mortals.
Doing damage to them while cloaked MAKES A DIFFERENCE. They now consume AHR for armor.
They do not have ABSURD repair rates, now only having 1 ahr on dreads.
Having them all refit also makes a massive difference. Siphons/Krills are no longer "Kill everything" ships. They actually have weaknesses.
I don't have to put up with snob K'luth anymore now that I can legitimately put them in their place within the bounds of the game.
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Xavier I. Agamemnon
Grand Admiral
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 12, 2010
Posts: 357
From: Babylon5
| Posted: 2011-08-13 03:24
Quote:
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On 2011-08-13 00:33, Reznor wrote:
I think I'm going to stand up and say I LOVE this build.
K'luth have been utterly BROKEN for ages. Now they....aren't. They aren't gods toying with mortals.
Doing damage to them while cloaked MAKES A DIFFERENCE. They now consume AHR for armor.
They do not have ABSURD repair rates, now only having 1 ahr on dreads.
Having them all refit also makes a massive difference. Siphons/Krills are no longer "Kill everything" ships. They actually have weaknesses.
I don't have to put up with snob K'luth anymore now that I can legitimately put them in their place within the bounds of the game.
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i too like the way luth is now. jest becareful when there are alot of them on. *remembers that frightful day of gangilas and krills.*
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Xavier I. Agamemnon
CD/I.C.S Spartacus
HC/I.C.S Athena
CDD/I.C.S Achilles
Leader of the Exathra Alliance Fleet.
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Azure Prower
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2006
Posts: 309
| Posted: 2011-08-13 03:59
Least my piercer has the "you're going to die" effect still.
Flying around solo and switching on my interdictor field to strike fear and have people running scared always brings me a smile.
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Viskel the Muffin Muncher
Grand Admiral
Joined: November 13, 2009
Posts: 38
From: Your Fridge
| Posted: 2011-08-13 16:32
Alright, I came back shortly after the 1.670 Hotfixes, to try out the new version and see if the balance was fixed...
Frankly, it's not even close. Personally, I think it's even less balanced than 1.5 version.
As a developer for another project (Discovery mod, for Freelancer), I've got about 5 years of experience in testing and balancing ships against each other. I like to think this gives me some sort of experience support in my evaluations.
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Kluth;
First off; The UGTO Armor/Damage buffs. Very very very bad. Of all the things I've noticed so far, that is the biggest problem.
I'm in a Scale. A cruiser specifically made for short-range slamming attacks into the rear of other cruisers and dreadnaughts. A Scale on your arse is something no Dread should enjoy. Granted, it shouldn't kill the dread outright in doing so, but it should drain all the rear armor and some hull before either running out of energy, or the Dread pilot, if he knows what he is doing, to get him out from behind him.
What should not happen, is the rearward firepower of a Battle Dread or EAD killing a Scale in roughly 45 seconds. Something is very very wrong with that picture. And I can guarantee a Torpedo cruiser won't die to a Kluth dread in 45 seconds, even tanking the Dread's FORWARD firepower. In fact, I know it won't die, as I watched that exact thing happen yesterday.
Also, I tested UGTO forward firepower vs Kluth forward, with a Siphon vs EAD.
It took the EAD one salvo to hull me. -HULL-. That means, 3 layers of Fore armor, and roughly 14% of my hull was taken off in one Alpha strike. In a Siphon.
What'd I do in return? Knocked him from 96% to 84%. 12% armor damage. That's not even half of his forward armor. And keep in mind, we were both enhanced for beam damage.
While Kluth are meant to have a weaker armor, they shouldn't be able to be hulled in a single strike from a same-class ship against their heaviest armor arc. Especially not when dealing less than half of that amount of damage in return. And certainly shouldn't have a cruiser killed by a BDs/EADs rear firepower faster than the cruiser, made for this task, can remove the Dread's rear armor.
--- --- ---
Stations.
Hive/SSs seem fine, but as was mentioned multiple times so far; the Battle and Command variants of those stations have no purpose. To compensate the lack of repair abilities with the BS/Nest, the two both need a serious firepower buff. -Not- armor for either, but firepower. This firepower should come in the form of missiles or fighters. Battle Stations/Nests are made for.. Well, Battle. That means they should be able to deal significant damage to ships at any range, but that they should have no ability to repair themselves, reload themselves, or either for any ships escorting it. It should be pure power, no support. The Hive and SSs already cover that.
The Line Station was already extremely weak pre-patch, and it still needs some work. It needs a few missiles added in, and a 10-15% shield buff, or instead another Aux Generator.
Until the Command Module is entered in, a possible use for Command Stations could be to give them and upgaded form of the repair field (1.5-2x), but with no reload drones at all, and very little firepower. It should have a large shield/armor tank, but not be able to deal much damage, with the upgraded repair field being its reason for existence.
--- --- ---
UGTO;
With UGTO, the Dreadnoughts are still too powerful. They have a ton of armor, and a enough firepower to rival the Kluth. They are both the best armored and the best in firepower, and no ship should hold both of those qualities at the same time. UGTO are meant to be a balanced approach, ICC a defense approach, and Kluth a firepower approach. UGTO are balanced between Defense and Firepower, but both are to the level of their specialized counterparts.
The Reduce the 10% damage bonus on UGTO to a 5% bonus. Remove two QSTs from the EAD and replace it with 3-4 Heavy Lasers. Right up, nose-to-nose, this thing should be a very lethal enemy. But at range, it should be very vulnerable.
Then reduce the armor bonus back to its original level.
After that, give another 5% firepower boost to the under-Dread ships, except the Battle Cruiser and Torpedo Cruiser. Those two are fine as they are.
--- --- ---
ICC;
The firepower nerf, while good for balancing against UGTO, seriously harmed ICC's ability against the Kluth. This was said before, I agree with it, based on my experience fighting against ICC as a Kluth. In my Hive, the ICC's 2 ADs, 1 CD, and Combat Destroyer were unable to break my tank, and I had no support ships or other stat. At the time of the main battle, I had 1 Krill and 2 Scales defending me from 1 MD, 2 ADs, 1 CDest, and one other ship I can't recall.
I was still able to fight them off, killing them all, with 72% remaining hull and 40% remaining armor. This in a Hive and mostly close-range.
I also watched 4 CDests take on a Parasite and a Scale. Even 2 CDests on the Scale, away from the other 3 ships, the CDests were taking the Scale's armor down -incredibly- slowly. Much slower than the Scale was hurting them in return, while being unable to use its torps (they always missed due to CDest's agility), and rarely in beam range.
4 Psi Cannons shouldn't out-damage 2 CDests.
ICC need a 5% damage boost on all under-dread ships, like UGTO got, but then also extend to a 5% shield boost on all dread ships.
To further balance it, give shields a 15-20% damage resistance against Kluth Beams, but not SIs.
Lastly, give the ICC ships, across the board, a 5% increase to their power supply/regeneration. While they should have energy problems, it currently is far worse than it should be, and resulting in the ICC ships being massively out-classed by Kluth, and still out-classed by UGTO as well.
--- --- ---
Summary;
Battle Station/Nest need a firepower buff via missiles. Line Station needs a 10-15% shield buff or another Aux Gen as well as 2 missile slots.
Command Stations lose most of their firepower, get a 25% armor/shield bonus, then get an upgraded form of the Repair Field, until the Command Module is entered into the game.
Kluth need their armor nerf reversed back to original levels.
UGTO need their dreads' damage buff lowered from 10% to 5%, remove 2 QSTs from the EAD and replace with 3-4 Heavy Lasers.
Remove the armor bonus from all UGTO ships.
Give another 5% bonus to under-Dread class ships except the BC and TC.
ICC need all under-dread ships to get a 5% damage bonus. Their dreads need a 5% shield bonus.
Shields given a 15% bonus against Kluth beams.
5% increase to power supply/regeneration.
[ This Message was edited by: Viskel the Space Lobster on 2011-08-13 18:56 ]
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MarineKingPrime
Marshal
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 04, 2010
Posts: 239
From: CSS CheezyBagels
| Posted: 2011-08-13 17:51
Also, reduce the armor buff that ugto has, so ICC has better defenses.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-08-13 17:57
im not having trouble fighting kluth as is...
And no Kluth armor nurf currently in game. (its in beta)
UGTO and Kluth require a bit of thinking to engage. There are ships we have to counter every ship they have, just not the ship you would think.
A good rule of thumb for icc, is to go one ship lower class than the one your hunting. Supirior defense through manuverablity.
Yes i agree UGTO ships outclass ICC ships in damage and defense class per class now. Yes i have HUGE issue with this.
Im icc though, been fighting with a shorter stick for so long now it just feels natrual. Ill manage.
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Viskel the Muffin Muncher
Grand Admiral
Joined: November 13, 2009
Posts: 38
From: Your Fridge
| Posted: 2011-08-13 19:00
On 2011-08-13 17:57, *XO*Defiance wrote:
im not having trouble fighting kluth as is...[/quote]
I have seen ICC having a lot of trouble fighting Kluth where they shouldn't have had such a hard time. I'm, ironically, saying my opponent has it too hard and myself too easy.
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And no Kluth armor nurf currently in game. (its in beta) |
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Yes, apologies for that. I was typing so much up that I got my thoughts all jumbled. Problem was the combination of UGTO armor and weapons buff. Post edited to fix that part.
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UGTO and Kluth require a bit of thinking to engage. There are ships we have to counter every ship they have, just not the ship you would think. |
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I was an ICC for a long time before Kluth, and still play both, though ICC not quite as much at the moment, so I do know the tactics. But even with the right set up, there is still a general level of disadvantage for the ICC when they fight Kluth.
Quote:
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A good rule of thumb for icc, is to go one ship lower class than the one your hunting. Supirior defense through manuverablity. |
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This I know. But I watched 4 Destroyers get out-damaged by a Parasite and Scale, even with the CDests staying at longer range and using their manueverability.
I'm also writing up some ship ideas in another thread(s) soon.
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-xTc- ExisT
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness
Joined: March 20, 2010
Posts: 534
From: Red Lobster
| Posted: 2011-08-13 19:14
As a lobster, i say that it is very easy for us to pop fools vs ICC.
On the other hand, vs UGTO, luth has a much harder time of popping fools.
We will indeed pop that fool eventually over time, but it is much more difficult and risk of death is much greater.
UGTO can damage icc faster than we can(citation needed)
Idk how icc vs ugto is, but ugto is the overpowered faction right now imo, not luth(alot of icc QQ about that in /y)
agreed with removing the recent ugto armor buff... wth they dont need more armor!?
UGTO says all their ships now suck. well yes, when by itself, every ship sucks, on every faction. Thats the beauty of 1.67, this game is now pretty close to ZOMG BALANCE. You need TEAMWORK with ships that strengthen eachouther in regards to the many many situations in DS.
UGTO just havent adapted to the fact that this is a FLEET STRATEGY game, not a pew pew boom! game, even tho most of this game consists of pew pew boom!
They are too used to the 'one ship pwns all' way of thinking. Use your 30 different ships that compliment eachother in counter to different situations!
But, we arent seeing alot of UGTO anymore, they suddenly disappeared, it would be better to get their say in this too.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-08-13 21:29
retracted statement as it gave no useful imput other than my bias point of view.
If you want to make ICC better Vs Kluth, be my guest. Ill just lol and as i buldoze any kluth ship i come across
[ This Message was edited by: *XO*Defiance on 2011-08-13 21:34 ]
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2011-08-13 21:33
Quote:
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On 2011-08-13 19:14, xTc-JSRSJ wrote:
As a lobster, i say that it is very easy for us to pop fools vs ICC.
Idk how icc vs ugto is, but ugto is the overpowered faction right now imo, not luth(alot of icc QQ about that in /y)
UGTO just havent adapted to the fact that this is a FLEET STRATEGY game, not a pew pew boom! game, even tho most of this game consists of pew pew boom!
They are too used to the 'one ship pwns all' way of thinking. Use your 30 different ships that compliment eachother in counter to different situations!
But, we arent seeing alot of UGTO anymore, they suddenly disappeared, it would be better to get their say in this too.
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Thats why you see a lot of the fools you pop QQ in /y because there is really only luth on now...barely any Uggies. So Luth is all there is to compare against 99% of the time in MV.
And UGTO does feel a BIT OPed... decided to take on an EAD with my AC (didn't expect to win but should have been able to do quite a bit of damage before having to run...boy was i wrong)..Beams connected and took out 75% total shields and ate 25% in to left armor because i could not move shields fast enough
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-08-14 00:57
Quote:
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On 2011-08-13 16:32, Viskel the Space Lobster wrote:
Stations.
Hive/SSs seem fine, but as was mentioned multiple times so far; the Battle and Command variants of those stations have no purpose. To compensate the lack of repair abilities with the BS/Nest, the two both need a serious firepower buff. -Not- armor for either, but firepower. This firepower should come in the form of missiles or fighters. Battle Stations/Nests are made for.. Well, Battle. That means they should be able to deal significant damage to ships at any range, but that they should have no ability to repair themselves, reload themselves, or either for any ships escorting it. It should be pure power, no support. The Hive and SSs already cover that.
--- --- ---
Summary;
Battle Station/Nest need a firepower buff via missiles. Line Station needs a 10-15% shield buff or another Aux Gen as well as 2 missile slots.
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Good, I'm not the only one who sees that BS should have missiles (or in my case, should swap the missiles with SS meaning SS loses them).
I don't feel like such an outcast now 
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-08-14 02:17
i still say you guys are missing the point of the battle class station.
Its a staton protector/killer
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Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
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MarineKingPrime
Marshal
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 04, 2010
Posts: 239
From: CSS CheezyBagels
| Posted: 2011-08-14 02:39
Right now, ugto armor is 30% stronger than shields. So Right now, a well rotated UGTO ship can absorb up to 200% more damage than an ICC ship. But, a supposed advantage of this is that ICC can focus all of it's shield energy to one arc.
Alright, so one shield arc is 90% health and one UGTO armor arc is 120% health. Now, ICC can have 270% on one arc and then all the shields are gone. That's pretty good right? Including the inside armor arc, ICC has 370% on one arc. Now UGTO only has 240% on one arc. A 130% defense advantage on one arc.
Now this is great if ships in this game never rotate. However, if an ICC ship wants to rotate they only get 100% on that other arc. A UGTO ship gets another 240%. So, UGTO has much higher defensive potential than ICC does. UGTO might actually have more combat endurance because of this.
Shields are great, but armor is just too strong right now in comparison to armor. If a UGTO ship rotates once, it immediately can take more damage than an ICC ship.
I ask that UGTO gets its armor buff completely removed fom the game, or ICC gets a shield buff.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-08-14 03:16
dont agree with your numbers there...
and HP is not everything.
if shields are 90% hp of armor, lets call each shield arc 90pts.
so a HC for ICC has 760pts (4xarmor 4x active shields)
A UGTO BatCr has 8x armor plates at 120%hp. 960pts.
My Boarder Cruiser has a total of 600pts (half active half reactive) yet its more defensive than both the HC and the BatCr.
This does not mean i dont believe UGTO is OP.. just saying theres more to defense than HP.
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Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-08-14 07:51
Quote:
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On 2011-08-14 02:17, *XO*Defiance wrote:
i still say you guys are missing the point of the battle class station.
Its a staton protector/killer
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How is it going to kill another station? It doesn't have the range. People don't look at a SS/BS combo and say "uh oh that's a tough nut to crack", they look at it and say "free prez!"
(Plus you never want to leave stations alone now without dread or smaller ship support)
If anything, the support station should be the station protector. Right now the roles are all mixed up, and the SS is best at everything. I know it has missiles and always has, but I think it's time we explore new layouts for all three stations and really make each one good at it's role, according to it's name.
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