| Author |
Some Gameplay Thoughts |
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
|  Posted: 2013-03-24 21:23
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On 2013-03-24 18:56, Zero28 wrote:
Do not compare Ds with mechwarriors.
First of all your all wrong about it, Catapult got its 4 medium lasers to defend itself very effectivly, even against mech of the same weight. Its speed alows him to gain distances on heavier class mech like an atlas, thus still able to use its LRMs.
it also carries jumps jet to get over terrain other mech would have problem to reach, or even can't reach
Also add the fact he can shoot his missiles behind cover, only needs an allie Light mech to spot the enemy. With that, a catapult can easily take down an assault mech or 2 on its own
i know cuz i Play Mechwarriors for a while, including Mechwarrior online and the catapult is my favorite mech
An MD/CD cant even dream of beign that effective since everythign just jumps trought everythign, ignoring all its possibe escort and jsut shoots him down and forces it out, and if he jumps, What stops another dread to just track him and follow?
Remember, Kluth dont play to win, they play to get kills
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The difference between MW and DS is that a distant assault mech can't pointjump a LR missile mech. That we know very well.
I've been in the situation where I was flying my Siphon and pounding away at an ICC CD while in a dico field. Along comes a few salvos of Harpexes fired by a SS and MD. Took me out in 3 to 4 full salvo hits.
I couldn't jump the MD. Neither could I jump out. Tried to cloak, but the high ECCM in the area ensured that my sig couldn't drop fast enough to pre-det the incoming missiles.
We can see here that the JD is the so called "great equalizer" between long range ships and assault ships.
IMHO, 2 things could be done to help with LR play.
- Min jump distance
- Greater range for missiles
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-03-24 21:24 ]
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-DBS
Marshal
Joined: January 04, 2011
Posts: 204
From: St. Petersburg, FL
| Posted: 2013-03-24 23:03
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On 2013-03-24 14:00, Talien wrote:
If cloak had a longer cooldown for Dreads and Stations it would do a lot to get people to stop complaining about it I'd think. Luth would still have their 100% effective cloak and first strike advantage, but instead of dumping a couple alphas then recloaking they'd need to jump out to reposition for the next strike unless they have a major numerical advantage.
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The cloak through still has a duration to full effect after the cooldown and it is longer with higher lvl ships...
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On 2013-03-24 23:05, -DBS wrote:
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On 2013-03-24 18:50, Talien wrote:
It would give Kluth players an incentive to use something other than Dreadnoughts, because right now there is absolutely none. When do you ever see a luth player who can use Dreads in any combat ship smaller than one? The Cruisers are on par with ICC and UGTO but nobody uses them, and the Claw is easily the nastiest Destroyer in the game, but nobody uses it.
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Claw is fun and I have a modded Scale and Stinger also  People would use these ships if we had more players. I think the new map will add life to the game for some bit
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[ This Message was edited by: -DBS on 2013-03-24 23:07 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-03-24 23:10
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On 2013-03-24 23:03, -DBS wrote:
The cloak through still has a duration to full effect after the cooldown and it is longer with higher lvl ships...
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I know, but it's not significantly longer where there's any advantage to using anything besides Dreadnoughts, Kluth players still use them almost exclusively as soon as they're able to with a Station, Engineer, or Transport thrown in occasionally.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-03-24 23:33
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On 2013-03-24 23:10, Talien wrote:
I know, but it's not significantly longer where there's any advantage to using anything besides Dreadnoughts, Kluth players still use them almost exclusively as soon as they're able to with a Station, Engineer, or Transport thrown in occasionally.
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I think it's human nature to use the best piece of equipment available for a SOLO situation.
Now I mentioned SOLO because it's basically the first thing that comes to mind when you log in to play. When there's no gameplan for the players in the faction, solo play becomes the foremost thing on their minds. And they want fly the ship best suited for that job.
For Kluth, it's dreads. Because their stations are almost deathtraps.
For Uggies, it's mostly stations (and the EAD).
For ICC, it's mostly cruisers and the AD.
So sometimes you'd end up with a fleet of stations/dreads/cruisers that is ill equipped to do anything else other than pound the enemy. Hmm, yeah, that is the main focus of the game after all. Though it does not bode well for fleet tactics.
But who cares? Because most players just want to win. No, not their team. They want to win, individually, by themselves. Never mind if the rest of their factionmates end up as roman candles. They want to be the one who kills the enemy and survive.
In a way, I think it indicates that the class of ships mentioned above either
- has a clear and decisive advantage over the other classes in their own factions
- or the other ships in the faction are clearly deficient in major areas when put up against the best ships in the opposing factions
As long as there's no incentive to use the other ships, or disincentive to use those "best" ships, or even limiting factor imposed in the game to prevent this from happening, this scenario will play itself out over and over again. Players will find a "best" ship, and use it almost exclusively.
p.s. -
In CounterStrike, it was the AWP. And server admins responded to it by limiting the number of AWPs per team.
Just sayin' you know.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-03-24 23:36 ]
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Danek Ma`arna C`arns
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 26, 2004
Posts: 102
From: Atlanta
| Posted: 2013-03-25 09:36
Why do people not use the Claw?
The Claw is an utter failure of a ship in every single situation.
Against smaller vessels, like Corvettes, it does OK, if you are able to decloak right at the point that they are inside beam range, and remain in beam range for the full duration. This is more difficult than you would expect.
Against Frigates, Engineers, and Supplies; the Claw performs extremely well, IF you can find one sitting still. At speed, the Claw has trouble landing enough torps to make the kill before running out of energy, or being fired upon by escorts. Now, joint point out the supply of these ships to shoot at... oh wait... those are the EXACT people you were threatening some players for shooting at JUST YESTERDAY.
Against other destroyers, the Claw is a target. It lacks the energy to chase, the range to brawl, and the damage to deal a meaningful alpha. In fact, that is a common effect for K'luth ships smaller than Dreads... they just lack the alpha to do more than harrass a frigate... there is no hit and run... the enemy regens the damage faster than K'luth ship can reposition and strike again.
Cruisers are death. They can avoid your torps, usually... and while the battle is long... the Claw is slowly losing. If Harrassment is your game... so be it. The Claw can occasionally beat a Missile or Strike Cruiser... but it is far more common they jump away before you even get through a shield facing.
Dreads and stations are attackable. They cannot commonly avoid your damage. The issue is that the damage is light enough to be pointless unless you can get in several volleys... and all of those volleys are within range of the Dread's counter attack. The Claw can survive one return volley if the Claw is able to turn three facings of armor to absorb the blows and half the enhancements of the Claw are DEF.
In a group... the Claw is a hindrance. Even when working with other close range ships like Siphons, the Claw will have a hard time finding a place to hit the same facing and NOT be in the Siphon's line of fire.
And that is the crux of the Claw... the Claw MUST be moving at at least a decent pace to have any chance of avoiding return fire... the Claw has such short range that it has no choice but to basically climb on top of the enemy ship, where the Claw has to only half blown to smithereens.
And the enemy will regen their armor damage faster than the Claw will regen their hull.
I am assuming when you looked at the Claw, all you saw with weapons, which you figured looked pretty good, considering Dread level 8-10 damage values. You forgot the Claw is a Level 4 destroyer... take everything you know about Dreads and cut the range and damage to half or one third.
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Subtilizer
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: February 20, 2010
Posts: 122
| Posted: 2013-03-25 11:01
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On 2013-03-25 09:36, Dank Ma`arna C`arns wrote:
Why do people not use the Claw?
The Claw is an utter failure of a ship in every single situation.
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Yeah in this i disagree.
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On 2013-03-25 09:36, Dank Ma`arna C`arns wrote:
Against smaller vessels, like Corvettes, it does OK, if you are able to decloak right at the point that they are inside beam range, and remain in beam range for the full duration. This is more difficult than you would expect.
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If im going to be honest there is zero reason to attack a corv, it is completely harmless. Sure it can beacon you but it can't kill you, now if it has help the bigger question is why are you expecting it get off scot free attacking an enemy group. And if you are someone like me who with the recent server changes suffers intense lacenty issue then trying to kill a corv is completely impossible. A corv is just a bug to ignore (by cloaking).
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On 2013-03-25 09:36, Dank Ma`arna C`arns wrote:
Against Frigates, Engineers, and Supplies; the Claw performs extremely well, IF you can find one sitting still. At speed, the Claw has trouble landing enough torps to make the kill before running out of energy, or being fired upon by escorts.
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Is the claws damage this bad for you? Most engineers die in seconds after being attacked by my claw, while i can't comment on the speed (my claw is faster than a base frigate) v.s the lesser classes the damage is more than satisfactory. The exception might be UGTO since the tanky hull and the small ships dodging ability can make it hard as well as UGTO having decent damage. ICC however is a piece of cake.
I don't have enough time to finish off this but one final note
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On 2013-03-25 09:36, Dank Ma`arna C`arns wrote:
I am assuming when you looked at the Claw, all you saw with weapons, which you figured looked pretty good, considering Dread level 8-10 damage values. You forgot the Claw is a Level 4 destroyer... take everything you know about Dreads and cut the range and damage to half or one third.
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The leveling for beams (disruptors) and im not sure but i think hull were both removed. I'm really unsure on the latter but a disruptor is a disruptor no matter the ship.
[ This Message was edited by: Chaoticstorm on 2013-03-25 11:01 ]
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Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
| Posted: 2013-03-25 11:47
the level system is still very there
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2013-03-25 11:54
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On 2013-03-25 09:36, Dank Ma`arna C`arns wrote:
Why do people not use the Claw?
The Claw is an utter failure of a ship in every single situation.
Against smaller vessels, like Corvettes, it does OK, if you are able to decloak right at the point that they are inside beam range, and remain in beam range for the full duration. This is more difficult than you would expect.
Against Frigates, Engineers, and Supplies; the Claw performs extremely well, IF you can find one sitting still. At speed, the Claw has trouble landing enough torps to make the kill before running out of energy, or being fired upon by escorts. Now, joint point out the supply of these ships to shoot at... oh wait... those are the EXACT people you were threatening some players for shooting at JUST YESTERDAY.
Against other destroyers, the Claw is a target. It lacks the energy to chase, the range to brawl, and the damage to deal a meaningful alpha. In fact, that is a common effect for K'luth ships smaller than Dreads... they just lack the alpha to do more than harrass a frigate... there is no hit and run... the enemy regens the damage faster than K'luth ship can reposition and strike again.
Cruisers are death. They can avoid your torps, usually... and while the battle is long... the Claw is slowly losing. If Harrassment is your game... so be it. The Claw can occasionally beat a Missile or Strike Cruiser... but it is far more common they jump away before you even get through a shield facing.
Dreads and stations are attackable. They cannot commonly avoid your damage. The issue is that the damage is light enough to be pointless unless you can get in several volleys... and all of those volleys are within range of the Dread's counter attack. The Claw can survive one return volley if the Claw is able to turn three facings of armor to absorb the blows and half the enhancements of the Claw are DEF.
In a group... the Claw is a hindrance. Even when working with other close range ships like Siphons, the Claw will have a hard time finding a place to hit the same facing and NOT be in the Siphon's line of fire.
And that is the crux of the Claw... the Claw MUST be moving at at least a decent pace to have any chance of avoiding return fire... the Claw has such short range that it has no choice but to basically climb on top of the enemy ship, where the Claw has to only half blown to smithereens.
And the enemy will regen their armor damage faster than the Claw will regen their hull.
I am assuming when you looked at the Claw, all you saw with weapons, which you figured looked pretty good, considering Dread level 8-10 damage values. You forgot the Claw is a Level 4 destroyer... take everything you know about Dreads and cut the range and damage to half or one third.
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To add on to what chaotic said. You are too new to have seen some of the Claw wolfpacks that have flown around. Imagine some 8 claws in a wolfpack attacking one target in a cordnated manner, its very effective.
hell when i was lth a while back i flew a claw mostly. How many times did i die in it? 3 .how many kills close to 100. So you saying that the claw is rbish is based on your biased choice of luuth dreads vs anything else.
Ohh PS if you having trouble flying anything smaller than a dread, learn how to fly and not just hit V smash space bar then hit V again.
Now for something pertaining to this topic. To nova the biggest loss for the long range ships was removing the dictor, they prevented the assaut ship from jumping the ranged missle boats. And if they were foolish enough to do so the missles would lay waste to them. But the biggest problem with the dictor was one fractions complet inability to drop their dreads to fly something smaller to force the dictor out of the area
And as for the luth cloak. I kinda like the idea that was said about giving a chance to fail after a certain amount of time. Just have to find an area that is not stuupid weak or ohh my god strong
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2013-03-25 12:49
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On 2013-03-24 07:40, Pantheon wrote:
I have fought players (Azreal comes to mind) in long range ships with a close range ship, and every time I jump them, they simple jump away and continue to pummel me.
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Your not doing it right. Kluth can cloak, sublight over to a long range ship, open fire. Missile ship is forced to either disengage or die. If it tries jumping 1000 gu away you can simply jump it and kill it.
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You state that they are 100% risk free ways, but what you're asking for is an 100% risk free way to be a long range ship.
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No, I am not. I am asking for a way to counter Kluth cloak. It does not have to be 100% reliable, just reliable enough that it can work sometimes. Again, something that works 100% of the time with no counters is bad, this is both for the Cloak, and any potential counter to the Cloak. My honest opinion is that minelayers and interdictors should be a huge part of countering cloak. Kluth can still circumvent it with a lot of paitence and some luck, while ICC/UGTO actually has a chance of engaging at long range without being pointjumped.
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No doubt cloak can use some tweaking, but it's not in relation to long range viability (which is entirely viable).
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I do not see anyone flying anything but CQC ships. The only exception I saw was actually Kluth, I do see a few Ganglias throwing missiles/fighters from time to time but I suppose they are an exception because they not only dont have to worry about cloaked enemies sneaking up on them, they actually have multiple methods of escape should they get jumped. Dont think I ever seen anyone use a Carrier or Missile ship otherwise aside from the occasional Command Carrier as an oversized engineer.
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You can keep hammering on and on about this, but the development team is happy with where we are, and we're not going to be making changes to anything regarding long range viability, as it's perfectly viable now.
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Well, of course, but do not be suprised if your problems remain.
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On 2013-03-24 09:34, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
You want long range ships to have a chance to survive against brawlers, and yet you can't accept a min range for jump drives.
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Partly because it does not fix the problem (brawlers can still pointjump from long range), and actually complicates long-ranged ships fights against brawlers, Much like it would prevent brawlers from point-jumping long range ships, it also prevents long range ships from jumping 1000-1500 gus to get breathing room.
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You want cloak to be altered in such a way that they can be surprised?? (I seriously don't know how to accomplish this without it being ridiculous)
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As I said, why not try minelayers? It actually sounds perfectly reasonable, and on top of that it brings back into use a certain role that has not seen use since the minelayer boats were nerfed many years ago.
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As Pantheon said, you obviously have your own ideas on how you want this game to be, but it ain't gonna happen because it goes against the design of the factions completely.
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When the design of the factions does not work, maybe it is time to change the design?
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Feel free to suggest countermeasures along the same basic lines. But anything outside that will probably not be considered.
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All I ask is countermeasures. Right now, Cloak really does not have any. You could have utterly rediculous amounts of ECCM (multiple EWAR ships, ECCM plats, ECCM planet) and currently it was a negligable effect on Kluth cloak.
At the same time, though, ECCM is a bad countermeasure for cloak because it shuts out the EWAR game for ICC and UGTO. ICC/UGTO are not going to bother with the EWAR game and the EWAR game becomes only a bludgeon in which to whack the Kluth with. That is why I seek a better counter for cloak.
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You still have planetary dico. And who knows, if we or someone can think up of another better way of how ship based or even plat based dicos can be implemented without making half the playerbase log out in frustration, then maybe.... just maybe... it will make a return. Until then, ummm NO.
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Why not platform-based dicos? A lot of the fustration of the old interdictors is that they were very easy to defend and very hard to attack. The Kluth interdictor especally had very good armament, and the ability to cloak if things got dicey for it which made it especially maddening. Remove all of that and you have an immobile, unarmed platform (I would not even give it PD, force the defenders to provide some PD coverage for it) with only a bit of armor/shielding. I would increase the range to 1500, only because of heavy cannons/core cannons being a bit long ranged.
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Danek Ma`arna C`arns
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 26, 2004
Posts: 102
From: Atlanta
| Posted: 2013-03-25 15:03
I stand by what I said.
I don't think that any story that relies entirely upon outnumbering your opponent 8 to 1 and still having to use extreme amounts of coordination to dispute my word. I think, if anything, it reinforces them.
Nor am I sure you are even referencing the current version of the game... You seemed to infer you were speaking of CL2K Claws from 1.480... since I haven't been around long enough to remember. I'm not sure what that would have to do with today's Claw...
Easy way to tell that levels on weapons still exist... look at the ammo. Projectile Speed and Damage go UP; Ammo per Rack goes DOWN as levels increase.
Ah... learn how to fly... as if there is some magical thing you do better than other people BECAUSE YOU KNOW HOW, and those whom do not are NOOBS. I'll call your bluff. Speak it. Educate us. Bring light to the downtrodden.
Manage your energy... wait... you don't even know the mechanics of the game... how would you know what is the most efficient weapons are?
Change speed while avoiding? Please.
Assign weapons of the same type to different hotkeys so you can keep a steady stream instead of grouped fire? Years too late. And, only barely effective. Works well enough if you don't have to also navigate, but if you do, you start running into your Keyboard's/PC's/Darkspace's inherent ability to process only so many keyboard buttons at once. It leads to gaps in your navigation or fire.
What? What is your all powerful god given talent that makes you fly so much better than the other turds?
I know what it is, by the way. Your 4 step plan to being better than everyone else.
A- only log in when we outnumber the enemy.
B- hug planet with both arms and suction cup attached to anus.
C- assume the clusterball orgy formation of eight dreads.
D- pray that maybe, just maybe, the K'luth won't come for you tonight.
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Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
| Posted: 2013-03-25 15:34
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On 2013-03-25 12:49, Novacat wrote:
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On 2013-03-24 09:34, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
You want long range ships to have a chance to survive against brawlers, and yet you can't accept a min range for jump drives.
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Partly because it does not fix the problem (brawlers can still pointjump from long range), and actually complicates long-ranged ships fights against brawlers, Much like it would prevent brawlers from point-jumping long range ships, it also prevents long range ships from jumping 1000-1500 gus to get breathing room.
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the min jump distance is to make long range ship able to actually support its allies at range without having the enemy able to ignore the whole fleet just to get you. what YOU want, is long range ship to be entirely imune to close range battles, in a way that CQC ships cant reach it
With the min jump distance, its true that enemys from elsewhere can jump directly to you, but beeing a long range, means you need support, and there for you make sure that all the enemy are at the location where they can't jump back at you, and are too busy with the main forces. befor showing yourself in. If you solo jump a ship then expect to have his ally jump you, same goes for him.
You'd actually have to use your mind, plan ahead and wait til the right time to come out, and you will shine
and BTW if your ship keeps moving, and a ship jumps right on you, by the time he lands, hes gonna be with more distance, and more to your liking. but if you wanna stay still thats your problem
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2013-03-25 15:34
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On 2013-03-25 09:36, Dank Ma`arna C`arns wrote:
The Claw is an utter failure of a ship in every single situation.
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To be fair, the Claw was deadly a long time ago. Back then, all those weapons were as powerful on the Claw as they were on a Dread, and as a result all that firepower really allowed the Claw to punch holes into much, much bigger ships.
[ This Message was edited by: Novacat on 2013-03-25 15:51 ]
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Diabo|ik
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2002
Posts: 327
From: Quebec, Canada
| Posted: 2013-03-25 15:48
To Talien:
Right now ships below dread are useless for Kluth for a simple reason, close range = suicide with a cruiser.
To Wessssss
And the claw is a total joke.
Right now there is zero advantage to using a smaller ship, because of the way the faction changed post 1480-1481.
We can't stand and fight like you can, and dance around etc. No energy for that, no "all arcs" weapons for that, no defenses for that. If we could, heck I'd do it over a dread any day as it's so much more fun. But such gameplay as been nerfed... Remember the 1480-1 claw, it was a fantastic ship that could do exactly what you suggest... NERFED. Same for the drainer, NERFED. Scarab? NERFED. Ganglia? NERFED. What do we have left? Siphon, Mandible. And with the nerfs on kluth defense and energy regen, the ONLY WAY they can work is if we strike hard, drain our energy, then retreat.
And it's "working as intended". Kluth dessies and cruisers for this purpose are a total waste of time and energy tho. They don't offer another way of fighting for us, and they aren't better at the way of fighting the Siphon and Mandible offers.
I'd be all for a return to more 1480-1481 Kluth fighting style. But it won't happen. Forget it. Not my words... Devs words...
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2013-03-25 15:57
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On 2013-03-25 15:34, Zero28 wrote:
the min jump distance is to make long range ship able to actually support its allies at range without having the enemy able to ignore the whole fleet just to get you. what YOU want, is long range ship to be entirely imune to close range battles, in a way that CQC ships cant reach it
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There are ways of countering long-range ships aside from point-jumping on top of them. Infact, the next patch will have Escort roles which are dedicated to countering missiles and fighters.
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With the min jump distance, its true that enemys from elsewhere can jump directly to you, but beeing a long range, means you need support, and there for you make sure that all the enemy are at the location where they can't jump back at you, and are too busy with the main forces. befor showing yourself in. If you solo jump a ship then expect to have his ally jump you, same goes for him.
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The problem is numbers. If the enemy gets an ally, so do you, and when you can jump straight to him, there is really nothing stopping you from bringing two CQC ships to that fight, and at close range, two CQC ships will smash a single CQC ship and a long range ship. This is why battles in Darkspace eventually devolve into blobs of CQC ships fighting other blobs of CQC ships.
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On 2013-03-25 15:48, Diabo|ik wrote:
I'd be all for a return to more 1480-1481 Kluth fighting style. But it won't happen. Forget it. Not my words... Devs words...
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Well, we can always work for something newer and better, no?
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Diabo|ik
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2002
Posts: 327
From: Quebec, Canada
| Posted: 2013-03-25 16:42
I really wish we could!
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