| Author |
Fighting Kluth Destroyers |
Captain Caveman
Cadet
Joined: October 12, 2002
Posts: 668
|  Posted: 2003-05-08 05:20
Please note, this post does not in anyway, shape, or form, deal with the ecm fort problem, so please refrain from arguing about it here. This is merely some pointers for players out there who consistently get their butts handed to them by Kluth players.
I realise that alot of players out there believe that the Kluth have an overwhelming advantage against the other two factions. And in some respects, I can agree with that statement.
Yes, the Kluth do have overwhelming firepower at close range.
Yes, the Kluth have an advantage against system damage weapons.
But I'd like to think that I've played each faction pretty extensively now, and am in a position of strength to comment.
The Kluth are not as uber as everyone makes them out to be
There. I've said it. I truly do not believe that the Kluth are as overpowered as people make them to be. And thats why I hope the upcoming patch does not nerf them too badly because although they do need to be brought down a peg or two, they are most definately in the same ball park as the other two factions.
The reasons why alot of ICC and UGTO players get their butts handed to them are primarily:
1) Numbers
2) A disproportionate amount of the better players on the Kluth side
3) Extremely powerful close range weapon loadouts on the Kluth ships
4) Gods awful tactics and ship configurations
I cannot help with any of the first three, and I’m not going to help with general tactics, but hopefully this post can help with the configuration of your ship.
Ship Configuration
Fusion torps. Why?
People complain most about the Kluth Dessies. They have lots of firepower and can dodge a direct hit from most weapons, so it amazes why people stick with fusion torps even with the knowledge that they rarely hit a Kluth Dessie, and even if they detonate their torps, the splash damage is minimal. Yes, you get twenty more, they have more range and fire faster. But whats the point in having those advantages if you're not going to hit the target?
It was only when playing as Kluth and fighting against one of the best ICC players around (Ramirez - If you read this mate, hope the RAF is going well and you come back one day) that I realised that AM torps are the best Heavy Weapon for killing Kluth. But in order to make them effective, you have to detonate your torps in order to maximise the splash damage. A close hit with a volley of six AM torps will take 10% hull off of a Kluth Dessie. If you use an AC with AM torps AND you learn how to detonate them correctly, you will be able to take Kluth Dessies apart in very short order. Kluth dessies are held together by bits of string and glue. They're so friggin fragile its unbelievable.
Psi Missiles
These weapons are extremely effective against Kluth Dessies. 2 volley's of 7 psi missiles from a modded Battle Dreadnought will be enough to give any Kluth Dessie are very large dent in their hull. Even if the dessie knows you're carrying these babies, I know of no Kluth pilot that ever uses a scanner, so they will not be able to pd them. And I reckon you'll have a minimum of a 70% hit ratio with them, they're that hard to dodge.
Nuke Mines
If you can attack a Kluth dessie when its at a standstill, it dies very, very quickly.
Question: So how do you make a Drainer stop so that you can kick the crap out of it?
Answer : Manually detonate nuke mines near its engines.
This is not an easy skill to master. And this is not your usual passive mine-laying where you simply drop a large minefield down and hope someone flies into it. This is all about seeing what the Kluth pilot is doing, and guessing where they will be. Then, it’s a case of dropping your mines early enough so that you get out of the blast radius, but not too early in case the dessie decides to turn radically. Then, when you blow your mines, make sure you only do so when you can be sure of hitting the engines. This normally means detonating the mines when the dessie is level with them, because there is a slight delay between you pressing shift + m, and the mines blowing, by which time the dessie will normally have flown past the mines, exposing their engines to the physical and system damage of the mines.
This is where the vulnerability of the Kluth dessies comes to the fore, because the single heavy armour on most is not enough to absorb the full effect of anything more than 4 nuke mines. Thus, by dropping 4 or more nuke mines and detonating them behind a Kluth dessie, you can almost guarantee that you will disable their engines. Then it’s a case of your teammates manually targeting the disabled enemy and killing it at will.
AM mines are also effective against the Kluth, but the system damage and extra 3 mines per slot that you get with nukes, make them a better bet in my eyes.
So now we have 3 different weapons that are effective against Kluth dessies. What do we mount them on?
ICC
Heavy Cruiser – 5 nuke mines, 4 psi missiles, 5 Heavy Armour, 1 reactor, 1 eccm.
Assault Cruiser – 6 nuke mines or AM Torps, 5 Heavy Armour, 1 reactor, 1 eccm, 1 spare reactor in hold
Combat Dessie – 2 nuke mines, 5 Heavy Armour (or active shields, depending on preference), 1 reactor, 1 eccm in hold
Minelayer Dessie – 3 nuke mines, 4 psi missiles, 5 Heavy Armour (or shields, depending on preference), 1 reactor, 1 eccm in hold.
UGTO
Battle Cruiser – 4 Nuke mines, 5 psi missiles, 5 Heavy Armour, 1 reactor, 1 eccm in hold
Torpedo Cruiser – 5 Nuke mines or AM Torps, 1 beacon, 5 Heavy Armour, 1 reactor, 1 eccm in hold
Assault Dessie – 4 Nuke mines, 4 psi missiles, 4 Heavy Armour
Battle Dread – 7 psi missiles, 1 reactor, 2 eccm
Note that only the Torp Cruiser and Assault Cruiser should be mounted with AM torps because of the full mounts.
Well that’s about all I can think of at the moment. If anyone has any other ideas they have picked up when fighting Kluth dessies, then by all means share them here and we can discuss what else works and what doesn't. And before you start whining about how you’ve tried that and it doesn’t work, quite frankly you’re talking crap. It probably means that you’re a bad pilot and you need to practice more. Don’t take it as a criticism, just learn the capabilities of each ship better, and how best to utilise them.
I would be grateful if people could refrain from turning what is meant to be a learning resource into an open flame war, but I’m probably living in hope. Either way, just try and open your mind a little and realise that there are other weapons in this game, and there are different ways of using them.
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Deleted
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| Posted: 2003-05-08 06:26
*Issues general order 27 to terminate Captain Caveman for releasing secrets of the K'Luth Masters.....
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DOM700 [-IMO-]
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 26, 2001
Posts: 3175
From: Eckental, Germany, Sol-System
| Posted: 2003-05-08 06:43
I still won't use AM torps because they simply fly too slow...
Anyway there are other and better tactics how to beat Kluths out there and I won't share them  Otherwise Snafu kills me
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Darksworde
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: September 06, 2002
Posts: 806
From: The Zoo
| Posted: 2003-05-08 07:30
Also, little note with regards to detonating Torps. If you camera the person you are shooting at, with enough practise and skill, you can optimise where you detonate your torps, as well as which section of the ship you hit (ie, front, left/right/rear). This requires a little skill however, as you have to constantly move the camera angle to keep your ship on screen, and then use this view to dodge and incoming fire.
PS - Dom, the kluth really really h8 AM Torp Det Killers. Believe me, theyve said so 
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[ This Message was edited by: Darksworde on 2003-05-08 07:36 ]
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Daylight \"The Beginning\"
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 24, 2002
Posts: 608
From: Oregon, USA
| Posted: 2003-05-08 09:01
MY GOD MAN, Be affraid be very affraid. That is the best post I have ever seen. I screem tactic all day in FA and no on listens...they are all to busy complaining. K'luth do not have much in the way of superiority as far as craft or load outs go. We just now how to use them and most of the rest of the players in the other factions are BRAIN DEAD! I have crushed every craft out there with a shell. Why...because the other had no clue to defend attack or even fly his craft.
GET TRAINING NEWBS...AND FA's TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HEHEHEHEHEHEHE
Not that it will matter. For I am the Daylight and will bring fire down apon those foolish enough to stand under my rays!
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DOM700 [-IMO-]
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 26, 2001
Posts: 3175
From: Eckental, Germany, Sol-System
| Posted: 2003-05-08 09:13
Well the ship with the best ability to kill Kluth dessies has no heavy weapon slots
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Shadow Wolf
Cadet
Joined: December 15, 2002
Posts: 57
From: Igensdorf(Metropolis ;D), Germany
| Posted: 2003-05-08 10:03
You can kill nearly every Kluth Dessie with nearly every weapon if youre skilled enough.For example:
You dont need AM Torps on an AC, its also possibl to kill one with Fusion Torps. They need to fly near your ship to fire their frontside weapons. So if you have mounted shields rotate them for defense and give the Kluth one, two or three full broadsides of your torps when hes in a range in which he cant dodge. Same with armor you only must rotate your ship instead of shields. And when a Kluth dessie is hit by three Alphastrikes of a AC hes pretty bad damaged.
The only bad thing about this is that you cant do it too often in a short time because youre armor is down very fast.
Id also say everybody can work out his own special tactic to destroy different types of enemy ships with his favourite ship. Especially when youre skilled and have played long enough its no prob. Look at DOM, hes a great example, because he flies a ship which you dont see too often in MV, but hes able to bring the most Kluth dessies down with it.
But for the newer players its quite good to know some standard and "easy" tactics before they have their own ones.
Also its good to know multiple tactics if the one you usually use doesnt work.
Personally i like AM Torps better, too, but i only wanted to say that this is a way but not the only one.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2003-05-08 10:13
i dont know where ur getting your information, but ICC is just generally annoyed, not scared to death of, kluth dessies. our tactics are fine, so we dont especially need your help, and id also like to point out that its much easier to kill a kluth dessie with fusion torps then with nuke mines.
and btw, we already knew how good psi missiles were. if u want to get technical im the one who brought the idea to UGTO. id also like to point out fusion torps and CL2ks have a much better effect (atleast for me) against kluth dessies and other ships. and, modding half a fleet with nuke mines isnt the best way to go about combat. at the very best i use nuke mines to stop a fleet from entering a certain area of space, friendly or otherwise, and i find they dont have much use as a middle-of-battle weapon against destroyers since they can just dodge them
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[ This Message was edited by: Lark of Serenity {C?} on 2003-05-08 10:31 ]
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Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Captain Caveman
Cadet
Joined: October 12, 2002
Posts: 668
| Posted: 2003-05-08 10:53
Quote:
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On 2003-05-08 10:13, Lark of Serenity {C?} wrote:
i dont know where ur getting your information, but ICC is just generally annoyed, not scared to death of, kluth dessies.
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I never said that ICC or UGTO are scared. All I said, was that alot of people whine about how uber the Kluth are (you in particular) and that people should actually try using different ship layouts.
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our tactics are fine, so we dont especially need your help
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Wrong again. The tactics are not fine. And I doubt that you speak for all of ICC when you say we.
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and id also like to point out that its much easier to kill a kluth dessie with fusion torps then with nuke mines.
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Wrong again. You should try flying with me, Wicked Ice or Darkheyr and you will see how much faster dessies die with nuke mines. If you like, ask Scotthug how easy it was for him to kill the dessies the other day when he flew with my nuke cruiser. Much easier to kill a target when its engines are disabled.
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and btw, we already knew how good psi missiles were. if u want to get technical im the one who brought the idea to UGTO.
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That maybe the case, but trying to hammer home the point because I don't see many people with psi missiles at all.
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id also like to point out fusion torps and CL2ks have a much better effect (atleast for me) against kluth dessies and other ships.
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Weren't you the player who after getting destroyed by my nuke claw and one other dessie, wrote a post screaming blue murder?
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and, modding half a fleet with nuke mines isnt the best way to go about combat.
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Are you a lawyer per chance? An interesting twist on my words there Lark. My post merely pointed that people should try the different weapons available because some of them are more effective at killing Kluth.
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at the very best i use nuke mines to stop a fleet from entering a certain area of space, friendly or otherwise, and i find they dont have much use as a middle-of-battle weapon against destroyers since they can just dodge them
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Well, quite frankly, you're not a very good minelayer then.
Look, I've got a bee in my bonnet because I simply got tired of hearing people moan about overpowered dessies when they're not. I respect you as a fleet commander Lark, but frankly, I don't rate your skills as a pilot, even less so after your post. A good Kluth Dessie pilot will dodge both the impact and blast of fusion torps. If you want to watch mines or AM torps in action, try flying with Darksworde, Ramirez, Armand, or any of the Nuke Squad boys.
[ This Message was edited by: Captain Caveman on 2003-05-08 10:57 ]
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conswirloo [V]
Cadet
Joined: March 22, 2002
Posts: 254
From: GA
| Posted: 2003-05-08 11:39
The caveman knoweth of what he speaks. I recall in eps ind a couple weeks ago, he was solo defending and holding 5 or 6 of us off, then he had to go and 4 other icc showed up, and we steamrollered em
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2003-05-08 12:31
a good kluth dessie will dodge a fusion torp
unless u know how to shoot a fusion torp so it will hit
guess what? i can
ohhh no, i suck at minelaying, i guess that makes me a horrible player, esepcially since i have the skill to land a hit with fusion torps. i must suck pretty bad.
and btw, i *screamed blue murder (what does that mean anyways?)* because 2 dessies were able to bring my dreads hull down 60 points in the space of 3 seconds.
and tactics are fine, atleast when im around, maybe ppl misbehave when im not around, but as far as i know ICC are doing fine with teamwork, tactics/strategy, and combat. theres the occasional n00b who thinks the best way to attack an enemy fleet is to run blindly into the middle of it and die, but that eventually gets dealt with.
and i have flown with Darkheyr, he has incredible mine laying skills, i will agree, but i have incredible fusion torp skills. shame on me and about half of ICC for being different then i suppose.
and just so u know, when i said *i use nuke mines...* i meant in the fashion of both how *i* use them and how i request other ppl to use them. funnily enough, having a minefield around the enemies planet does do quite a bit of damage to their effort to defend it. deary me, i didnt know that tactic was so bad, ill be sure not to bother trying to lead anymore.
incase u havent noticed by now, im in an extra-super-sarcastic mood, pls dont take anything too personally
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Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2003-05-08 13:05
id also like to point out its been awhile since icc has had our *butts handed to us*, i see many more victories over kluth then defeats
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Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Shadow Wolf
Cadet
Joined: December 15, 2002
Posts: 57
From: Igensdorf(Metropolis ;D), Germany
| Posted: 2003-05-08 13:28
Wow!!! What a speech!
I think youre right Lark, and to Caveman: Everyone can use his own tactics, theyre so many succesful ones so you cant say yours is the best.
I know the fighting style of lark and also yours, and both are good.
So id say show a bit more tolerance.
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Midnight *FA*
Fleet Admiral
Terra Squadron
Joined: April 29, 2002
Posts: 689
From: ICS. Idot (ICC Station) somewhere in the middle of nowhere
| Posted: 2003-05-08 14:21
Fusion torps have the best tracking ability.. when does anyone ever pay attention to patches! .. AM torps track like crap because they are more powerful.. BTW thier blast raduis could be getting a tone down but the splash damage between the 2 torps is only a huge 250 points ! .. I like my fusions just the way they are.. and have no problems inialaiting a Kluth dessie one on one.
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Azure.co.uk
Cadet
Joined: December 01, 2002
Posts: 355
| Posted: 2003-05-08 14:29
I totally agree wid ya CC, but I love me Ftorps:) I've tried AM tho, their nice but I love Ftorps..
And Lark, I dont wanna take sides or anything, but if a well balanced fleet with a few of those features which CC mentioned, is deadly..I mean deadly. After flying with him in his nuke cruiser in Eri earlier, the strat was ownage. I mean, how easy is it to kill a fleet of K'luth drainers if they're disabled?
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[ This Message was edited by: Azure.co.uk {C?} on 2003-05-08 14:40 ]
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