| Author |
Fighting Kluth Destroyers |
Azure.co.uk
Cadet
Joined: December 01, 2002
Posts: 355
|  Posted: 2003-05-08 14:36
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On 2003-05-08 14:21, Midnight *FA* wrote:
Fusion torps have the best tracking ability.. when does anyone ever pay attention to patches! .. AM torps track like crap because they are more powerful.. BTW thier blast raduis could be getting a tone down but the splash damage between the 2 torps is only a huge 250 points ! .. I like my fusions just the way they are.. and have no problems inialaiting a Kluth dessie one on one.
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Actually AM torps have better tacking due to how slow it travels...AM torps are very affective against K'luth dessie, but not AS good against cruisier and above (in my experience)...
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AdmiralChaos III
Midshipman
Joined: January 21, 2003
Posts: 179
| Posted: 2003-05-08 15:33
well i can post it here and help this issue the reason am torps are so damn good is cause of its splash dmg which still work is they dodge them,
they do the same ammount of dmg of fusion torps when they hit the target and double when the am torps hit i would like to see all icc/ utgo players at least tryin it once and see how it realy hurts them but you absolutly positivly have to detonate the torps other wise they are usless agianst dessies!! so just try them once!!!
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Ashatwork
Cadet
Joined: April 03, 2003
Posts: 116
| Posted: 2003-05-08 15:36
This is really long.
EAD/AD vs Kluth --->
Why close range, why not medium to long range ships!?
BDs are medium range ships able to do light to medium damage as the target gets progressively closer and it becomes harder and harder for them to dodge the incomming fire. CDs are long to medium range ships that aren't highly effective until the fighters close to within 400 gu of the target and start encircling the enemy ship. ACs are lethal in a prolonged fight, 6 full mount torp bay, high manuverability, high top speed and the special slots to mount reactors to fight for a prolonged period at max speed, add shields which with redirection make an enemy have to blast through 4 layers of active shields then a full mount internal armor. MDs are long range stand off platforms, nobody wants to have to fight their way through a planet's dbases and 2 or 3 MDs.
Unfortunatly, none of these ships are particularly good at fast close range combat. Which means once the Kluth get in range, and the best kluth pilots in small ships can evade a high %age of incomming fire until they close within 300 gu and the pilots in the larger ships have auto hull and global system repair so they retain most of their potency until they close to beam range.
There are a large number of situations when being able to inflict massive damage over a short range and brief timeframe is needed.
--Defending teammates: bombers, dictors, crippled teammates, supplies -- rarely when a teammate needs help is it a situation where they can sustain multiple kluth alpha strikes. Against ICC sure you can hammer away at that AC for a min or two because 6 f torps don't do nearly the same damage as 3 or 4 cl2ks. (The EXACT same thing applys when an EAD or AD attacks a teammate, 6 or 12 torps hitting the AD or EAD won't dislodge them from their prey...)
--Defending planets: That ganglia just flew through 800 gu of missiles, fighters, torps and cannons and is getting ready to dump troops. Jump in obliquely and blow out his engines keeping him from getting close enough to orbit or just get 30gu away and blow him out of the sky.
--Capturing planets: Closing in from dictor range is ALL short range combat. Your enemy is between 700 gu and 1100 gu (depending if they are on the near or far side of the planet. Which very far when both you and the enemy are flying at max speed twoards each other (closing between 40-52 gu/s or 13 to 28 seconds before you're on top of each other)
General:
Honestly, in an AD or EAD you're probably fighting the Kluth in the stupidest way possible. Kluth ships are hampered by a general lack of long range weaponry, mount massive close range firepower in all ships regardless of class and have autorepair to shoreup light to moderate system damage. Neglecting a few specific hulls every kluth ship over the frigate class mounts comperable forward mounted firepower. So you're taking a short range combat ship against a fleet of enemy ships that are all geared against short range combat. In effect, any 2 MV modded Kluth ships is like going up against 2 AD in an EAD. Something that is REALLY stupid to do and expect to come out alive.
I've generally found the only difference between fighting at 100% hull and armor and 60% hull and armor is that if I go into combat at 60% hull my mistakes are shorter.
System damage, not hull status is the main determing factor in fighting kluth for me. Which makes an interesting side comment to a number of my less liked Kluth players. If I log all the time to escape dying, then why do I keep jumping back into battles at 50%+ hull to save teammates? Ok that was in poor taste take a dig at some people I don't like, I'll probably edit it out :/.
Fighting Kluth for me is all about cherry picking. Watch which areas the kluth are avoiding and where they are circling. Check constantly to see which kluth are seperated from their teammates. Keep your speed fairly low until you see a kluth heading your way. That way you can percision jump faster (w/o having to worry about slowing down from 20gu/s).
Rules of engagement:
Never go after a specific target, neglecting EVERYONE else, unless you're sure you can kill them in 1 or 2 shots.
You should be engaging the target that is the LARGEST threat to you. If you've hit a kluth 2 or 3 times and they are sitting at 8% hull and facing away from them, they aren't a threat. Give them 15 seconds to repair their drives and escape and they BECOME a threat, but you need to worry about any red targets closing in on you.
Generally speaking you'll be fighting at 12-15 gu/s accelerating up to full speed periodically to either dodge torps, slow the rate of gain when you're being chased or to stay in range of a fleeing enemy. This means you'll be burning energy fast by firing constantly at the same time only getting moderate energy recovery due to speed.
So you've got an almost dead, unmoving target within 150 gu of you... with a few of his buddies steaming to his rescue. You can either finish him off, turn and engage his pals, or swing around, putting HIM between you and his friends and start trying to figure out how to get the heck away from 3 angry Kluth.
1) Finish him off:
Due to the current state of DS where crippled ships are being targeted as if they aren't crippled torps will miss unless you do 1 of 3 things: Shoot them with direct fire weapons, fire tracking/non tracking projectiles so you are directly infront of or behind them, manually target them so the client doesn't lead the target.
EVERY one of those things requires a few seconds of your time and ALL of your concentration so you're no longer watching the guys closing in on you.
2) Engage the people persuing you:
You just left a ship that will quickly regain engines and weapon control behind you and in 15-30 seconds you'll be facing an additional foe. Unless they take this oppertunity to run... which is VERY RARELY the case. ICC/UGTO will almost always run, rarely they'll stay around because when their engines go, so do 80% of their weapons. With most of the kluth weapons front mounted and the auto repair fixing all systems the Kluth will regain weapons at the same time they regain their jump drive, in addition they'll remove hull...
3) Bug out:
You're giving yourself cover, getting a chance the crippled ship's teammates will FF him for you and you're getting a chance to escape. Chances are, since running away means flying straight you'll have enough time to do number 1) and kill him.
3 is the BEST thing to do in my book. 1 is good if you have teammates around. 1 is NEVER a good idea if you're chasing down an enemy ship... odds are if 1 kluth jumped in to save them 2 or 3 more are on their way. 2 I don't like, I don't like being outnumbered and I really don't like having someone behind me that can turn on me at any second.
Percision jumping Kluth:
Always jump BEHIND them. Even if this means you're jumping past them so the Kluth is behind you as you are behind him. Fewer weapons can be brought against you... and if it's only 1 kluth you can turn to face them bringing your undamaged forward armor into play.
Regardless, any Kluth will have to turn around to bring the bulk of their firepower into the fight, which gives you time to turn around yourself so they can't hit your engines and gives you time to charge your jump drive.
Remember, the closer you get to a enemy ship the more damage chemical lasers do and the higher the accuracy of your projectiles (less time to evade). This applies for the Kluth too, the closer YOU are to them the more damage they do. So exploit their beam arc restrictions.
Jumping around Kluth
Unless you're jumping 1 isolated ship--by isolated I mean 200 gu away from max range of his teammates--NEVER jump closer than 500 gu to your enemy.
You want time to get up to speed BEFORE you're under fire, you also want to give yourself time for your jump drive to charge.
Always ALWAYS know where you are in relationship to a dictor. Don't fly straight at enemy planets... Yes if you're taking an enemy planet you HAVE to do this, but always worry about it. If you ejump away and get caught in an enemy dictor you are DEAD. Always know when you're going to clear a dictor field.
Watch out for piercers...
Anyhoo, I think that's about all I can think of... I kinda lost my train of thought actually
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Russian Roulette with Muskets
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 04, 2002
Posts: 393
| Posted: 2003-05-08 15:44
Quote:
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On 2003-05-08 05:20, Captain Caveman wrote:
Battle Dread – 7 psi missiles, 1 reactor, 2 eccm
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rather use 2 reacors and have one eccm in cargo.
with 2 reactors you can fly at 20 gu, volley missiles without e loss and charge the cl2k's if needed.
and do not fire the all missiles at the same time. wait 2-3 seconds between shots, makes it harder to dodge all of them. i prefer using 2 groups.
no kluth dread or dessy can effectivly fight a missile ship with 360° arcs at that speed. they will run out of power soon.
Another thing: Yes cl2k's hurt, but notice: your bd can take more damage than a kluth dessy, and closing in to fire cl's will hurt the dessy much more than you.
replacing the 2 its with nuke mines can be effective to.
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Ashatwork
Cadet
Joined: April 03, 2003
Posts: 116
| Posted: 2003-05-08 16:20
Quote:
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On 2003-05-08 15:33, Dark Chaos wrote:
well i can post it here and help this issue the reason am torps are so damn good is cause of its splash dmg which still work is they dodge them,
they do the same ammount of dmg of fusion torps when they hit the target and double when the am torps hit i would like to see all icc/ utgo players at least tryin it once and see how it realy hurts them but you absolutly positivly have to detonate the torps other wise they are usless agianst dessies!! so just try them once!!!
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I have problems with how short the range of AM torps are, especially in evasive combat situations.
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Diomed
Cadet
Joined: January 09, 2003
Posts: 40
From: Sterling Heights, Michigan
| Posted: 2003-05-08 16:29
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! Finally someone has done something more on here than just complain how uber Kluth dessies are. I have always been well aware of the limitations and vulnerabilities of the kluth ship I was flying. (I was Kluth until less than a week ago.) They are EXTREMELY weak against fighters, (Yes- I know mass fighters create lag), weak against missiles, weak against CL's. About the only thing I can say for them is that they pack a punch and- like all destroyers from all factions- can dodge torpedoes well. I don't know how many of you have played RPGs like Asheron's Call and EQ and games like that, but the thing about Kluth Dessies that frustrated me is the same as the problem with those games. Fight for 30 seconds, heal and wait for 3 minutes. Fight for 30 seconds, heal and recharge and wait for 3 minutes.
Well- sadly, I am leaving work now and will be gone for the weekend. Won't be back til Monday, but I will be missing all of you and this game. Fight well and with honor.
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Sandals
Fleet Admiral
Agents
Joined: January 21, 2002
Posts: 2001
From: Redmond,WA,USA
| Posted: 2003-05-08 16:30
Ftorps are fun AND their ICC-Tech. So......
Other thing:
All or nothing torp/mine layouts arn't too smart. It's best to go with one or maybe two Nuke Mines, rest torpedoes.
Also, any dread in Darkspace can beat a K'luth destroyer one on one, most of the time. The only reason it can't is if the destroyer is using its (very large # of) torpedoes at long range (400 GUs?) where AM torps cant even reach (Yeah) and Ftorps will never come close enough to damage, most of the time. But, that's only a real concern if you can-not jump the destroyer for some reason.
Also I fly missile dreads anyways, so long range is fine by me. 
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Ashatwork
Cadet
Joined: April 03, 2003
Posts: 116
| Posted: 2003-05-08 16:39
Quote:
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On 2003-05-08 16:29, Diomed wrote:
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! Finally someone has done something more on here than just complain how uber Kluth dessies are. I have always been well aware of the limitations and vulnerabilities of the kluth ship I was flying. (I was Kluth until less than a week ago.) They are EXTREMELY weak against fighters, (Yes- I know mass fighters create lag), weak against missiles, weak against CL's. About the only thing I can say for them is that they pack a punch and- like all destroyers from all factions- can dodge torpedoes well.
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It's a DESTROYER. All destroyers are made of paper.
Try flying an assault destroyer infront of an AD.... You'll have less of a life expectancy than a lone drainer getting jumped by me or skuriti.
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Specterx
Fleet Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: December 09, 2001
Posts: 547
From: Virginia/California
| Posted: 2003-05-08 17:09
I find it fascinating how Lark has done nothing but complain, complain, complain about K'luth for the past few months (years?) yet now claims that ICC has "more victories than defeats" versus the K'luth.
As with most conflicting accounts the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
In an ideal world people would care about balance and address BALANCE issues (e.g. the ganglia) rather than phantom problems drummed up in a post-combat heat. If K'luth destroyers do too much damage, you:
1. Shouldn't let them get that close (this is called having a fleet with more than one type of ship, and humans ARE getting better at it - dictors are actually somewhat common now)
2. Should learn how to use the weapons available to DESTROY those K'luth ships, while they merely damage you.
I'm suprised that nobody has mentioned the Battle Dread. It can mount three CL2ks and up to seven psi cannons (or some combo of psi cannons and flux waves). It's MADE to counter fast-moving ships.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2003-05-08 17:25
alright, lets look at this rationally
F torp:
tracks target
800 Gu range
very fast
small energy drain
sexy red colour
N Mine:
no tracking
50gu range
N/A
medium energy drain
ugly spiky ball
most veteran players are smart enough to realise when a minefield is being layd (the lack of torpedoes being shot at them or someone else is usually a big clue, especially when the target ship has 100 hull and 100 shields/armour)
at close range the likelyhood of a kluth dodging an F torp fired while cutting across his stern is very slim, ive made more kills with F torps and faster then i ever seen someone in a mine layer do. maybe im just lucky
want a good strategy against kluth dessies?
well too bad im not giving it out in a public forum, last thing i want is kluth getting free information on a combat strategy.
and if u say *but u just said that thing about his stern* it doesnt really matter since anyone with some experience knows that move
id also like to know how many times ive *whined* about imbalance over the past month, i think youll find i do it very little. you might even want to take notice of the fact im telling the ppl who still ARE whining to hush up since the next patch is going to fix everything ANYWAYS
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[ This Message was edited by: Lark of Serenity {C?} on 2003-05-08 18:08 ]
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Juxtapose
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: May 11, 2002
Posts: 1308
From: Give me your bullets!
| Posted: 2003-05-08 17:31
What a humerous post.
But I certainly hope no one reads any part of these posts and takes them as scripture.
What works for one rarely works for all.
Just keep trying things out untill you get what works...then you can start repairing all the damage done to your prestige. 
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4cemje
Cadet
Joined: August 25, 2002
Posts: 211
| Posted: 2003-05-09 00:36
Quote:
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On 2003-05-08 17:25, Lark of Serenity {C?} wrote:
alright, lets look at this rationally
F torp:
tracks target
800 Gu range
very fast
small energy drain
sexy red colour
N Mine:
no tracking
50gu range
N/A
medium energy drain
ugly spiky ball
most veteran players are smart enough to realise when a minefield is being layd (the lack of torpedoes being shot at them or someone else is usually a big clue, especially when the target ship has 100 hull and 100 shields/armour)
at close range the likelyhood of a kluth dodging an F torp fired while cutting across his stern is very slim, ive made more kills with F torps and faster then i ever seen someone in a mine layer do. maybe im just lucky
want a good strategy against kluth dessies?
well too bad im not giving it out in a public forum, last thing i want is kluth getting free information on a combat strategy.
and if u say *but u just said that thing about his stern* it doesnt really matter since anyone with some experience knows that move
id also like to know how many times ive *whined* about imbalance over the past month, i think youll find i do it very little. you might even want to take notice of the fact im telling the ppl who still ARE whining to hush up since the next patch is going to fix everything ANYWAYS
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[ This Message was edited by: Lark of Serenity {C?} on 2003-05-08 18:08 ]
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Im sorry to correct you here but it seems to be needed.
ftorps have a range of 550gu not 800 gu. Yes they do have a great fire rate and use little energy plus have plenty of ammo. They are a spacebar mashers dream, but any skilled pilot in a desie or below can dodge then with ease, even most cruisers, especially shields mounted icc have no worries when it comes to ftorp. Additionally these torps have poor splash dmage so a miss is a miss, no chance of inclicting reall pain off of a detonation. AM torps are far more effective at countering ships that can dodge ftorps, because while they can dodge the torpedo they cannot escape its large blast radious. Yes it does require skill above spacebar mashing to use these weapons effectively, maybe Darksworde or Ramirez can teach.
Above all remmember DarkSpace was not design to be won by one ship sporting one type of weapon. Specific configurations and ships are needed to counter each type of ship in the game. An AC for example using ftorps can safely pound larger ships at range with little risk to itself. Conversely if it is forced to engage with a close combat fighter like a drainer its performance suffers. To counter this the AC most be modded for close quarter combat(AM torps/mines), or another more suitable ship is chosen. One must realize when and where to pick a ship for the situation, if you know your going to meet up with a fleet of K'Luth dessies prepare for it, do't bring poor counters then whine about it later.
P.S. Lark do you really expect your AD(I assume it was f-torp modded) had any chance verus two K'Luth Dessies(Modded with f-torps(large ship killers)) who where capable of dodging just about anything you fired, and you being far to slow to dodge anything they threw at you?
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Seraph
Fleet Admiral
Joined: October 07, 2002
Posts: 446
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2003-05-09 04:55
You know what i found to be effective against kluth dessies? Psi Cannons. A dessies can not dodge and keep up wiith you, they are amazing accurate and since dessies are so weak in armor they do lots a damage. and they dont take so much energy.
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Russian Roulette with Muskets
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 04, 2002
Posts: 393
| Posted: 2003-05-09 05:30
Quote:
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On 2003-05-09 00:36, 4cemje wrote:
Im sorry to correct you here but it seems to be needed.
ftorps have a range of 550gu not 800 gu.
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nope. 800 is right.
if both ships arent movin its exactly 800.
If the attacked ships is fleeeing from the attacker the Fusion torp range decreaes. the client takes the increased torpedo-traveltime into calculation.
Ifthe Travel Time would be more than the Life time of the torpedo, the client wont let you shoot.
Works reverse to: if a ship is closing in to you with 30 gu/s you will be able fo fire earlier.
noone ever noticed this?
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- I'm not buying this!
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Darksworde
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: September 06, 2002
Posts: 806
From: The Zoo
| Posted: 2003-05-09 05:43
Why thanku 4cemje. Very nice post you made there.
Lark, with regards to the FTorp situation and kluth dessies dodging them, ask azure about the 2 duels we had (Drainer vs AC). I doubt if you would call Azure a noob or someone who doesnt know how to use an AC.
Suffice to say, Both myself and my brother, Captain Caveman can quite readily dodge F Torps from some one who uses and detonates them from well within 50-100gu of that person and take no or little damage whatsoever, damage that is quickly repaired.
In fact, i have to say, when i was kluth and saw ppl using F Torps, i was always very grateful to them, as they were making my life easy. The only person, using Torps and an AC, 1v1 who used to worry me was Ramirez, simply because he :
A) Used AM Torps
B) Knew how to detonate them
C) Knew how to keep distance between me and him
D) Knew how to target specific areas of my ship
Every other situation where i died or was soundly beaten was due to the following reasons :
A) Was outnumbered at least 3v1 odds
B) They had a dictor
C) I blew my butt off with mines (Had to add this 1, and the reason i now use Nukes, not AM Mines)
With regards to mining. There are 2 schools of thought how these should be used. The first involves laying a large minefield and then hoping that the enemy does not
A) Use a pulse wave or scanner to dodge/clear these mines
B) Realise you have laid down a mine field and come from another direction
The second, is really more a form of combat mining, and involves dropping 1 or 2 groups of mines in combat that will cross the path of an enemy ship and then detonating them at the moment the enemy ship is closest to them. This requires an infinitely larger amount of skill and is why ppl like Wicked Ice / Darkheyr / Captain Caveman can and are so effective in combat.
Now, with regards to tactics, the first option is viable, as this allows you to take out larger numbers of ships, or dictate where the main bulk of an attack will originate. The second method is more akin to using Torps with no tracking or movement skills, but are invisible to any apart from those who run with scanners.
Now, to be honest, a fleet comprised of just 1 element of any type of weapon can be easily defeated.
A group of ppl with mines, fly with a scanner and keep your distance.
A group of ppl with F torps, get in close and dodge like crazy. Use only small ships
A group of ppl with AM Torps, keep your distance and take your time, or grab a few Dreads.
This is why the most effective fleets are always a combination of weapons. Mines to slow them up whilst they pay more attention to dodging torps, fusion to take out larger, slower ships, AM Torps as a compliment to both, with a larger splash radius. PSI Missiles, for effective combat at mid-long range and fighters to lag everyone out
What we are saying tho, is dont get stuck in the rut and think that your 1 tactic will work everytime. Ppl learn and adapt, and what works 1 week wont work the next. Also, learn how to use a variety of these selected tactics, master them and be more effective. But also, to learn how other ppl can counter these tactics so you yourself can follow suit and counter them.
To be honest, combat between vets on DS is more akin to a fast paced version of chess, learning about your opponent, making your opening moves, planning a few or a lot of moves in advance, knowing when to press and when to retreat.
And then, for those ppl in the know, remember
"In difficult ground, press on";
"In encircled ground,devise stratagems";
"In death ground,fight"
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[ This Message was edited by: Darksworde on 2003-05-09 06:16 ]
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