| Author |
Fighting Kluth Destroyers |
Dr Evil
Cadet
Joined: May 08, 2002
Posts: 930
From: *** CLASSIFIED ***
|  Posted: 2003-05-09 06:17
Great posts Ash and Conswirlo, you guys hit the nail on the head. A kluth destroyer has 1/4 of the armour compared to it's human counter part. Even a human scout has more armour. They're not hard to take out at all, you just need to be smart about how you fight. You guys have laid out the ideal tactics that the vets have been using for ages now to combat the kluth, it's not all that hard when you know their weaknesses.
My take on Anti Matter vs Fusion torps: I always mount fusion for the following 5 reasons: 1) Lower energy cost per mount, 2) lower recharge time, 3) longest tracking range, 4) more ammo per launcher, and 5) fastest travel velocity.
In a 1 on 1 dogfight, the guy with the better power management will be able to dish out more damage over longer time. As kluth in a 1 on 1, I will not close until I can guarrantee a killing blow with beam weapons, until then I stay out at range and let my torps do the bulk of the hard work. Once the enemy ship is low on energy and at 50% hull or less, then I close and finish them off.
If the ship I'm fighting has AM's mounted, I keep optimal range from them around 500 gu's +/- so I can hit them and they can't hit me. Fusions have a 20 gu blast radius, AM's have a 40 gu blast radius, the difference in damage between the two is 500 points, that difference is made up rather quickly by the number of shots you can get off per total energy usage. If you're using AM's and the person you are fighting closes with you, then manual detectionation is your friend. If they stay out beyond your optimal firing range, you're going to lose your shields/armour and tip the fight in their favour long before you close on them. If you fly directly at them, you guarrantee them hitting you directly with their torps. If they're smart, they will maintain that distance and not allow you to get within AM targeting range.
Here's a mathematical comparison I did last year when we started working on balance discussions, this is based upon an ideal loadout with an ICC Assault Cruiser with 2 reactors mounted and 6 launchers, the math shows how long it takes to unload the launchers and the total possible damage over time, torp speed, and tracking distances:
1) Fusion Torpedos
Launchers x 6
Ammo Max = 60
Damage = 2250 location, 750 random internal (3000 per torp)
Energy Cost = 900 per launcher
Recharge = 15
Range = (45 velocity * 12 projectile life) = 540 gu's
Possible Damage = 360 torps * 3000 damage = 1,080,000 points
Time to empty = 60 torps / 6 launchers * 15 recharge = 150 secs (2 mins 50 secs)
Total energy consumed = 360 * 900 = 324,000
2) Proton Torpedos
Launchers x 6
Ammo Max = 40
Damage = 2438 location + 812 random internal (3250 per torp)
Energy Cost = 1120 per launcher
Recharge = 16
Range = (40 velocity * 12 projectile life) = 480 gu's
Possible Damage = 240 torps * 3250 damage = 780,000 points
Time to empty = 40 torps / 6 launchers * 16 recarge = 106.66 sec (1 min, 47 secs)
total energy consumed = 240 * 1120 = 268,800
3) Anti Matter Torpedos
Launchers x 6
Ammo Max = 40
Damage = 2625 location + 875 random internal (3500 per torp)
Energy Cost = 1450 per launcher
Recharge = 18
Range = 40 velocity * 10 projectile life = 400 gu's
Possible Damage = 240 torps * 3500 damage = 840,000 points
Time to empty = 40 torps / 6 launchers * 18 recarge = 119.88 sec (1 min, 59 secs)
total energy consumed = 240 * 1450 = 348,000
Synopsis: Current in game values, Fusions have the highest hit and damage potential, AM's take second, and PTorps take last. Fusions have almost half the energy cost and can dish out 20% more damage per launcher. The cost in energy savings alone allows you to fly at a higher rate of speed and avoid being hit by incoming muntions.
As it stands, Proton torps pretty much suck compared to the other two torp types. We will be tweaking these values to balance the torps out and pu the ptorps closer to the middle of the pack for hit potential.
You guys will really like what we're going to do with the regular weapon slots. Railguns and particle cannons will no longer be the trivial weapon they currently are, they will hit more often like the psi cannons currently do. This will mean that ships mounting them will be able to hit fast moving ships and damage them before they can get close enough to bring heavy weapons to bare, which means a well balanced loadout will be able to combat smaller ships.
-Dr Evil
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Darksworde
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: September 06, 2002
Posts: 806
From: The Zoo
| Posted: 2003-05-09 06:36
Nice post Dr Evil. Curious to hear more about the changes to Weapon Slots. IMO, each weapon should have its own place in the game, and currently rail/gauss/particle just dont seem to have one.
With regards to F Torps, am i correct in saying you mainly use kluth dessies in MV.
IMO, a persons choice of ship and which ships they prefer to attack determines your selection of torps. As an overall, attack any ship weapon, definately the Fusion Torp is most effective. Any dread or cruisers/dessies with average pilots are fairly easy to hit.
However, your analysis does not take into account the tracking speed of the torp against the manuverability/acceleration of the ship or how the ship is piloted. Would be interesting if this could be factored into the equation (Although i think you would need a doctorate in Mathematics to work it out, so i aint expecting anything)
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DOM700 [-IMO-]
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 26, 2001
Posts: 3175
From: Eckental, Germany, Sol-System
| Posted: 2003-05-09 07:07
@Dr Evil
Isn't the Staff supposed not to post any data about weapons?
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Captain Caveman
Cadet
Joined: October 12, 2002
Posts: 668
| Posted: 2003-05-09 07:36
Quote:
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On 2003-05-09 06:17, Dr Evil wrote:
Great posts Ash and Conswirlo
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Yeah, nice post Cons.  
Quote:
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Fusions have a 20 gu blast radius, AM's have a 40 gu blast radius
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Therein lies the biggest advantage of AM torps. Most of the half decent Kluth dessie pilots out there can avoid torps by a distance of greater than 20gu's, but not 40.
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If they stay out beyond your optimal firing range, you're going to lose your shields/armour and tip the fight in their favour long before you close on them. If you fly directly at them, you guarrantee them hitting you directly with their torps. If they're smart, they will maintain that distance and not allow you to get within AM targeting range.
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Yep. But the trick to using AM torps effectively is to be aware of your range limitation and to simply not put yourself in a situation where you are "chasing" the Kluth dessie. Twist the range difference to work in your favour by flying away from the Kluth dessie. If they pursue you, the range advantage will work in your favour, because their torps will have to travel the extra distance to hit you, whereas your torps will have a shorter distance to travel because the Kluth ship is flying at them.
I'd say the range advantages only make a difference when you fight in one on one combat, or when you fight against ships of cruiser size or bigger. In engagements consisting of anything more than 2 ships on each side, I'd say that 90% of players lose awareness of the total battlefield and simply focus on the one or two ships they are pursuing. Thus, it gives their opponents the chance to get within weapons range without having to worry about pursuing the target.
You should also always try to lure enemies into weapons range of your comrades. Again, this most often happens when there are large fleet engagements because it is so hard for your enemy to keep track of all the ships they're are fighting.
Quote:
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Here's a mathematical comparison ...............
Synopsis: Current in game values, Fusions have the highest hit and damage potential, AM's take second, and PTorps take last. Fusions have almost half the energy cost and can dish out 20% more damage per launcher. The cost in energy savings alone allows you to fly at a higher rate of speed and avoid being hit by incoming muntions.
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I'd have to say that this is taking an ideal situation as your basis. The damage potential is indeed greater for fusion torps if everyone of them hit, but it again boils down to what would happen if they don't hit.
360 * 0 = 0
And will always equal zero. I'm taking an extreme perspective myself, but the increased splash damage of the AM torps virtually gurantees some damage. And given that Dessies jump out at about 50% hull, it doesn't take many near misses to get them there.
Another point. The numbers that you've calculated essentially point towards a war of attrition, in terms of torpedoes. With AM torps, the dessie will either be dead, or will have jumped out injured before you run out of torps. Either way, you can re-arm so the number of torps doesn't really have much of an effect.
Quote:
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You guys will really like what we're going to do with the regular weapon slots. Railguns and particle cannons will no longer be the trivial weapon they currently are, they will hit more often like the psi cannons currently do. This will mean that ships mounting them will be able to hit fast moving ships and damage them before they can get close enough to bring heavy weapons to bare, which means a well balanced loadout will be able to combat smaller ships.
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Yummy.
At the end of the day, all I wanted to do with this post, was to try and knock some sense into people. Too many times have I seen six AC's, all armed with fusion torps, have rings run around them by two or three Kluth Dessies. I just hope that some of the information myself and others have posted above actually hits home and people consider some alternatives.
[ This Message was edited by: Captain Caveman on 2003-05-09 07:40 ]
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Teager
Cadet
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 317
From: St Augustin, Germany
| Posted: 2003-05-09 08:21
@Dom700
cant you start posting constructive things? 
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2003-05-09 09:47
4cem, either u havent played with an experience AC + fusion torps, or your just blind, but i do very well with them myself.
incase u didnt notice, i did not say nuke mines suck. i did not say we should mod fleets with only 1 weapon, i pointed our your analysis of fusion torps being less effective then AM torps was flawed. as far as i know half of Agents uses fusion torps, and we were capable of taking down about 18 dessies using about 6 cruisers in a long strung out deep space battle in BD in a rather short period of time. pls show me an example of AM torps doing this.
and ramirez, you are very good with am torps.... but pls stop flying into the middle of the enemy fleet... please?
as a whole ive found it much easier to land a hit with fusion torps then time a detonation with am torps, and according to you im either lying or i suck, whatever, i dont really care, if u guys want to keep on getting AM torps thats fine, but i roxor with fusion torps so thats what ill do.
side note: i beleive my current record is 6 kluth dessies before dying within a 3 minute period or so (possibly less, wasnt really paying attention to time)
and btw 4cem, considering i had 0 weapons, no energy and a dmged J drive, no i didnt expect to live that long, but the fact 2 dessies can drop a dread SIXTY hull is insane. it takes like 20 ICC destroyers to do that, probably more
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Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
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Banshee
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: August 28, 2001
Posts: 2181
From: Philadelphia, PA
| Posted: 2003-05-09 10:12
Do it easy way, just manually detonate your torps near them 
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DOM700 [-IMO-]
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 26, 2001
Posts: 3175
From: Eckental, Germany, Sol-System
| Posted: 2003-05-09 10:21
Quote:
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On 2003-05-09 08:21, Teager wrote:
@Dom700
cant you start posting constructive things?
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What about you
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If the buildings on your planets disappear, guess who was there....
Never forget what you fight for
I have earned my betatester badge for being part of the open beta
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JackCrackerMan
Fleet Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 13, 2003
Posts: 169
| Posted: 2003-05-09 11:55
Anyone who is anyone knows how to take down a Kluth Dessie, get some Fast, good tracking weapons and its as good as dead! but the main problem shouldnt be trying to focus a tactic on just dessies, but Dessies/cruisers/dreads. Now, you can quickly take a Dessie with a PSI dread, and even better a cruiser... now when you get into Dreads and bigger, the PSI missile dreads are pretty much useless, by the time you have vollied them, they are right on you and BOOM you are gone. On the other hand, you design a ship good enough to take out a dread, then you are useless against a dessie... Until we can design out ships to the fullest of their abilities on all levels, the best way to fix our problems are by catagorizing your weapons, set them to numbers... because the last thing you need to be worrying about is your Energy at 0 in the middle of an assualt after missing about 4 vollies of Fusion torps... my best advice to all you heavy weapon guys out there.. set your beams to a number and your heavies to another... when they fly in close to strike with Beams, fire off the heavies, any other time; use the beams, if you try and use the heavies, most likely your just waisting needed energy on something that wont be done. Also, just incase you didnt know... dont fly into close combat with a psi missile dread unless you just want to have your missiles flying circles around your enemy, and not into them.
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conswirloo [V]
Cadet
Joined: March 22, 2002
Posts: 254
From: GA
| Posted: 2003-05-09 12:07
Quote:
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On 2003-05-09 07:36, Captain Caveman wrote:
Quote:
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On 2003-05-09 06:17, Dr Evil wrote:
Great posts Ash and Conswirlo
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Yeah, nice post Cons.
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I'd like to take credit for a brilliant post, but all I was saying is that the bad caveman scares me
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DOM700 [-IMO-]
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 26, 2001
Posts: 3175
From: Eckental, Germany, Sol-System
| Posted: 2003-05-09 12:40
Quote:
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On 2003-05-09 08:21, Teager wrote:
@Dom700
cant you start posting constructive things?
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2000th post
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If the buildings on your planets disappear, guess who was there....
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NoPants2win
Cadet
Joined: February 23, 2002
Posts: 1275
From: Poorly ventilated paint storage facility.
| Posted: 2003-05-09 15:04
I don't give much credit to those damage over time stats. They only apply when you are shooting constantly and hitting everytime. The best torp config is a mix. In a fast ship anti matters go in the front slot. Lower ammo requirement, and a longer charge time. In a dread you want some anti matter on all facings because the kluth are going to be behind you targetting your engines
Ever wonder why your AD is dead in the water with 50% hull left? We do that on purpose.
You want to beat kluth? here is my little piece of advice. Bring lots of weapon slots and fighters to the party. DONT pulse each others volleys and FOR GOD SAKES DONT FF EACH OTHER!**!!*!*!^%%$(*%!!
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2003-05-09 18:36
Qoute: don't give much credit to those damage over time stats. They only apply when you are shooting constantly and hitting everytime. The best torp config is a mix. In a fast ship anti matters go in the front slot. Lower ammo requirement, and a longer charge time. In a dread you want some anti matter on all facings because the kluth are going to be behind you targetting your engines /Qoute.
kluth behind me? the last time i saw a kluth behind me was about a month ago.
Qoute: Ever wonder why your AD is dead in the water with 50% hull left? We do that on purpose.
/Qoute
dead in 50? itll keep running to 30, and ive kept my JD running to about 3 hull before (barely mind you)
Qoute: You want to beat kluth? here is my little piece of advice. Bring lots of weapon slots and fighters to the party. DONT pulse each others volleys and FOR GOD SAKES DONT FF EACH OTHER!**!!*!*!^%%$(*%!!
/Qoute
FFing is usually an accident on ICC, i couldnt say the same for kluth
fighters? *falls out of chair laughing*
PSI missiles are pretty much only thing i trust to hit a kluth dessie, too bad their taking them away next patch
usually theres a reason someones pulsed, i trust that judgement, except for the times they pulsed a mirv cloud
IT missiles work pretty well, and so do torps of various kinds. HVY weap slots are just as effective
want to beat? i thought we had *recalls 0 red in MV period*
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Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
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Dr Evil
Cadet
Joined: May 08, 2002
Posts: 930
From: *** CLASSIFIED ***
| Posted: 2003-05-09 19:04
Another tactic I employ is to not mash the keyboard when firing torps (unless the target is a station or a ship that is just sitting there that will be hit every time). Nothing is more wasteful then detonating multiple vollies of torps all at once where the bulk of your torps will be nowhere near your intended target. You're not only wasting torps, but the energy to recharge them, especially if you're moving at high speed. Fire a single volley at a time, wait until it is near the enemy ship, then detonate them, this will give your weapons and energy system time to recover instead of constantly bleeding them dry leaving you with very little power to continue the fight, it allow you to fight longer and maximize your damage potential.
Yes, like many here, I use different tactics for 1 on 1 or 1 vs many then I do when I have team mates. If the bad guy or gal is targeting another ship and actively firing on them and ignoring me, you better believe I'm going to close on their tail and nail them with the big weaps at point blank. Working with teams, you need to be much more aware of what is going on around you, odds are you are not the only person firing on the enemy, you get too close or from the wrong angle, and you'll end up getting beat up by your teammates.
-Dr Evil
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AdmiralChaos III
Midshipman
Joined: January 21, 2003
Posts: 179
| Posted: 2003-05-09 19:28
I have problems with how short the range of AM torps are, especially in evasive combat situations.
[/quote]
you have a problem prolly cause you dont know how to detonate them right!!!
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