| Author |
Moderator Problem |
Deleted
Joined:
Posts: 0
|  Posted: 2001-10-31 00:21
One of my clan members, HG, has been having a problem with BIO recently. It seems that he was banned for no apparent reason, and perhaps it was just because of his reputation. There is a chat log that BIO posted in our forum, and I believe that it shows that my clan member is pretty much innocent. I would like this behavior to stop from BIO, and perhaps other mods that have a bias towards el33t and h4rDc0r3. And contrary to popular belief, I DO NOT allow my members to get away with anything in the lobby, and I take actions against them as I would any other player.
On a brighter note, I am working very hard to reform my clan members, so hopefully we'll all have an easier job of keeping them in line.
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Samweis*
Cadet
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 515
From: Berlin, Germany
| Posted: 2001-10-31 01:01
Can you post the chatlog here so that we can look over it?
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[GER]Clandiplomat
P: @31
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Deleted
Cadet
Joined:
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| Posted: 2001-10-31 06:58
This is what BIO posted in our forum:
04:41:35 [el33t]Lucife|2: "not very el33t material"
04:41:41 [el33t]HellGremlin: "I'm not appreciating that."
04:41:48 kckelly23: "hello"
04:42:08 [el33t]HellGremlin: "I really don't like when someone within the clan turns on it's own."
04:42:38 Daemeon: "yeah.. those kinda fights can get ugly"
04:42:39 [el33t]Lucife|2: "........."
04:42:38 Daemeon: "yeah.. those kinda fights can get ugly"
04:42:39 [el33t]Lucife|2: "........."
04:42:50 [el33t]Lucife|2: "im gone"
04:43:14 [h4rDc0r3]Yoko Yamamoto: "yup"
04:43:31 kckelly23: "What kind of game play is this game???"
04:43:54 [el33t]Palish: "*frown*"
04:44:00 Daemeon: "tactical space combat and resource managment"
04:44:03 [IHN]Creeper: "this is the devils own game >;)"
04:44:04 [el33t]Palish: "Elites are about skill, yes?"
04:44:13 Daemeon: "in a nutshell"
04:44:26 kckelly23: "coolness......kinda like mankind??"
04:44:26 [el33t]Palish: "Who cares if he trys to talk peace."
04:44:27 [el33t]HellGremlin: "No."
04:44:43 [el33t]HellGremlin: "Elites are about savagery and unique fighting style."
04:44:58 Daemeon: "more like starfleet command witha bit of masters of orion fer spice"
04:45:00 kckelly23: "its not??? thats what i heard...only reason why i came..."
04:45:08 [el33t]HellGremlin: "The biggest elites are all tenacious killers. We hunt people down. We ram death down their throats with a flaming shoehorn."
04:45:20 kckelly23: "masters of orion is to easy though"
04:45:26 Daemeon: "I take a size 9 and a half plz"
04:45:33 [el33t]Palish: "Good, and that's good."
04:45:36 Galagadude: "that game is easy but fun"
04:45:45 [el33t]HellGremlin: "That is how we want the rest of the clan to be."
04:45:45 [el33t]Palish: "For wartime. We go around and look for trouble?"
04:45:52 kckelly23: "how many resources can you mine or whatever?"
04:45:54 Galagadude: "MOO2 is awesome"
04:46:04 Daemeon: "MOO was awesome.. tho the Star Trek varient was better.. and ahrder"
04:46:09 [el33t]HellGremlin: "Frankly, we don't want our ranks to be filled with hippies... we don't go looking for trouble, but when trouble seeks us in the form of idiot clan leaders, we give them their dues."
04:46:18 Galagadude: "have you heard of stelcon"
04:46:27 [el33t]Palish: "Idiot clan leaders...such as?"
04:46:27 Galagadude: "its kind of like MOO but not quite as good"
04:46:32 Daemeon: "nope"
04:46:40 [DIBC]Super Engineer: "*coughs*"
* [DIBC]Super Engineer whispered "heheh look at HG talk...rofl"
04:46:59 [el33t]HellGremlin: "There's too many clans who tiptoe around each other with political gentleness. We don't want to be known for our excellent diplomacy, our delightful demeanor or our ability to solve problems..."
04:45:25 [BIS]BIOnicman: "hmm would you be so nice to go clan talk in another room like make a el33 room plz"
04:47:00 Daemeon: "nuttin like building a empire and havin the BORG knockin at yer door.. "
04:47:00 kckelly23: "anyone played Counquest:Frontier Wars???"
04:47:06 [el33t]HellGremlin: "We want to be known for terror."
04:47:10 Galagadude: "lol"
04:47:29 kckelly23: "Borg are here too??/"
04:47:38 [el33t]HellGremlin: "No... I feel that this is something that the whole lobby should hear, if it wants to..."
04:47:43 [DIBC]Super Engineer: "um HG, el33t isn't a clan...you're MERCENARIES"
04:47:54 [DIBC]Super Engineer: "because if you were a clan you would be able to declare war on other clans...heh"
04:47:56 Daemeon: "ouch"
04:48:04 [IHN]Creeper: "here we go........"
04:48:14 kckelly23: "if 4A here along with Borg??!! lol"
04:48:14 [el33t]Palish: "Heh. Heh heh."
04:48:15 [el33t]HellGremlin: "Thank you for telling us what we are and aren't, DIBC. You certainly know better than we do."
04:46:39 [BIS]BIOnicman: "why should we hear that save it for the forum plz change room if you want to discuss"
04:48:18 [el33t]Palish: "Heh heh heh heh."
04:48:21 [el33t]Palish: "lol rofl lol"
04:48:22 Daemeon: "i am leaving.. the gunfire has entered the area.."
04:48:32 [DIBC]Super Engineer: "And frankly, take your el33t talk somewhere else, we're not interested"
04:48:39 [el33t]Palish: "DIBC Super Engineer, I don't think you ahve room to talk."
04:48:52 Daemeon: "man.. it's like a train wreck.. can't stop watchin"
04:48:52 [el33t]Palish: "Perhaps when you get that BC removed from your name."
04:48:53 [DIBC]Super Engineer: "You want me to bring my account in?"
04:49:06 [DIBC]Super Engineer: "Palish, this is an ALIAS if you haven't guessed"
04:49:18 [el33t]Palish: "Go ahead."
04:49:19 [el33t]HellGremlin: "We weren't interested in your barely coherent stuttering hiccup of a leader starting this entire incident... we weren't interested one bit."
04:49:28 [IHN]Creeper: "look at supers stats time played = 0"
04:49:28 [el33t]Palish: "I've no time for a game, but if you want to impress me with all your shiny badges, sure."
04:50:12 [DIBC]Super Engineer: "heh HG, you have no idea who you're dealing with"
04:48:39 [BIS]BIOnicman: "DAMM ALL STOP THE UNFRINDLY TALKS FROM THE MAIN LOBBY NOW OR YOU GET OUT IN THE COLD FOR 24H TO THINK ABOUT IT THIS IS THE ONLY WARNING YOU GET"
04:50:41 [el33t]Palish: "Bio."
04:50:42 [el33t]HellGremlin: "Being unfriendly is against the rules, Bio?"
04:50:42 [el33t]Palish: "This is a chat."
04:50:46 [el33t]Palish: "We chat here."
04:50:46 [el33t]HellGremlin: "You're pushing your powers."
04:50:53 [el33t]Palish: "Agreed, HG."
04:51:06 [el33t]Palish: "I've naught heard one profanity, have you HG?"
04:51:10 [el33t]HellGremlin: "Please stick to regulating profanity, spamming, and other things an op should be involved in."
04:51:16 [el33t]Palish: "Check the guidelines, Bio, they're posted on the page."
04:51:17 Galagadude: "ccan somebody help me please"
04:51:19 [el33t]HellGremlin: "You haven't got the authority to police clan relations."
04:49:45 [BIS]BIOnicman: "bye HG"
04:51:25 [DIBC]Super Engineer: "You can chat all you want, quit putting down other clans"
* Invalid command, type '/?' for help...
04:51:40 Daemeon: "shoot galaga"
04:51:55 Galagadude: "im still having my failed to initialize display error"
04:52:06 Daemeon: "ew"
04:52:10 [el33t]Palish: "Super"
04:52:12 [el33t]Palish: "Do you read the forums?"
04:52:19 [el33t]Palish: "I have PERSONALLY been trying to stop all of this warlike business"
04:52:22 [el33t]Palish: "And clan-bashing."
04:52:28 [n00b]kyanox: "yay is almost captian"
04:52:29 Daemeon: "ya have all the latest drivers fer ye cards.. and direct x?"
04:52:31 [n00b]kyanox: "only 20 away"
04:52:35 [DIBC]Super Engineer: "hmm...I wonder Palish, so? I never said anything about you DID I?"
04:52:35 [el33t]Palish: "Please, get the facts straight before going off yammering about things like that."
04:52:36 Galagadude: "yeah but im not sure what i should do"
04:52:42 Galagadude: "yeah"
04:52:54 [el33t]Palish: "I see me and HG here."
04:53:01 [el33t]Palish: "Were you referring to HG? If so, I apologise."
04:53:06 SpaceGhost: "I thought games were for fun?"
04:53:11 [el33t]Palish: "Simply sticking up for the clan and whatnot."
04:53:14 [DIBC]Super Engineer: "You are fine Palish"
04:53:19 [el33t]Palish: "They are, Ghost. Frankly, I find this fun."
04:53:39 [el33t]Palish: "Amusing, rather...watching bickering of two clans like an old couple bickering over how clean a piece of fruit is."
04:53:45 Daemeon: "hmmmm, check your display setting in the launcher when you first start the game. Turn down EVERYTHING at first to see if you can even get it to run at all"
04:53:57 [DIBC]Super Engineer: "I never bickered, I'm simply telling him to stuff it"
04:54:06 Galagadude: "so should i turn down the display to windowed?"
04:54:10 [DIBC]Super Engineer: "He wants to go brag on and on and insult this and that go do it in other rooms"
04:54:13 [el33t]Palish: "I know. I was referring to this whole thing in general."
04:54:22 Daemeon: "no... leave that to full screen"
04:54:24 [el33t]Palish: "Has there been insult?"
04:54:26 Galagadude: "ok"
04:54:33 [el33t]Palish: "At this time in this room I mean?"
04:54:37 Galagadude: "`027x768 or 640x480?"
04:54:43 Daemeon: "but turn it down to like.. 640x480 at 16 bit.. blah blah"
04:54:46 Galagadude: "1024*"
04:54:52 Galagadude: "ok"
04:54:56 Galagadude: "does sound matter"
04:55:09 Daemeon: "nope"
04:55:13 Daemeon: "shouldn't"
04:55:15 Galagadude: "ok"
* [DIBC]Super Engineer whispered "yep sun told me the same...well HG's silent, so I think it worked and that lobby's just lagged...was like that yesterday when I banned 2 pple"
04:55:20 Galagadude: "thanks ill try that "
_________________
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chris aka sunshine
Cadet
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1649
From: Germany
| Posted: 2001-10-31 07:26
http://www.palestar.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=2619&forum=37&13
check this topic in the el33t clanforum.
just some facts:
- several el33t/hardcore members showed bad behaviour in chat/game/forum!!
- they've been warned by different mods, different times about the same topic.. i.e. swearing, harrasing language, sexual profanyties
- you were onnline while they showed this behaviour, several people told me what happened 3 days ago, maybe you were afk .. i just told you to care for you clanmates behaviour
[ This Message was edited by: sunshine on 2001-10-31 07:29 ]
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Christian 'sunshine' Weyand
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Selvarian {IMC}
Cadet
Joined: August 18, 2001
Posts: 1242
From: GA, USA
| Posted: 2001-10-31 11:23
OK (drawing a deep breath for a long-winded post, so watch out!).
First, I want to state that I try to be as fair and even-handed as possible while in my mod uniform. I have yet to kick/ban anyone, as, most of the time, a little polite request that people cease their problematic activities is met with acknowledgement and simple obedience (either that, or I am too tolerant of the behaviour and need to have my arse kicked by PS). That said, I have, on several occasions given multiple "requests" to certain people about their language in the chatroom. In addition, the offender(s) tend to adhere to the requests for a while, but their inhibitions soon evaporate (especially when moderators leave the room) and they revert back to the same behaviour.
Given the recent events, I want to say that this has been long in coming. There has been a lot of angst experienced by both moderators and players (both the directly affected and the disaffected) for some time. This topic came up in the last moderator meeting; IE, the fact that there are certain "problem players" in the chatrooms/forums. By "problem", I am referring specifically to the behaviour and language of certain members. Not all of them belong to the [el33t] clan, but a majority of the ones discussed as being "the worst offenders" do. The issue was brought up over how many times they should be warned before kicking/banning/expulsion actions should be taken. It was unanimously agreed that future warnings were to be singular AND swift, followed by even swifter action upon the next infraction. It was also my understanding (and suggestion) that a formal notification of grievance be issued to the el33t clan and (more importantly) the various "problem players" who were named in the meeting. Unfortunately, this was not done, and has had the worst kind of effect that I wanted to avoid: putting people on "double secret probation".
Now that it has come to a head, I think it is time for some SERIOUS changes in the way problems are dealt with. I will post the pre-Final draft of the RoC tonight (EST) and I would appreciate any final comments on it by Friday noon (EST). I will incorporate the suggestions/changes (as long as they don't conflict with what is already there) Friday afternoon, and then submit them to sunshine and Faustus Friday afternoon (as well as post them here). Any final changes made by PaleStar then will be made ASAP and will be posted, hopefully, by Monday (I will be speaking with Faustus Friday to confirm this).
A large notice in the news should then follow, stating, basically, that there is no longer an excuse for poor conduct by any player. It then becomes a simple manner of both players and staff (moderators/admins/PS/etc) to follow the guidelines set out to deal with any problems. It won't always always be that simple, but it will be a HELLUVA lot simpler than it is now.
Second, since the game has a growing on-line community and tends to have certain role-playing elements in it (though I deign to classify it as a RPG), I believe it is time to go ahead and formalize the distinction between in-game and out-of-game communications. As it stands, the behaviour problem can not ever be completely resolved because it is too easy to claim the lame excuse "I'm acting in character".
As such, I propose the following:
1) The creation of an in-game chatroom. Here, the gloves can come off and you can bash and talk trash up to the limits of the RoC (no belittling the *player*, no foul / sexually explicit language, etc). Note that player experience is OOG info; ie, referring to someone as a "n00b" in the IG chatroom is out of context. You can make fun of their rank or the fact that they fly their ship like a rookie, but the idea is to avoid coming close to the line between IG/OOG (let alone crossing it). This chatroom will be in addition to the normal chatrooms that already exist. The existing chatrooms will be listed as OOG *ONLY*, meaning you can chat about anything, but you cannot take on your persona and display his/her attitudes/behaviour there in any way. You can talk about them in the third person, if you like, but the RPing has to be done in whispers, in the IG room, or in a temporary room.
In addition, the various forums would need to be segregated into IG/OOG classifications.
I think all of the clan forums should be listed as IG and all of the others OOG. It would also be good for us to discuss a standard way to identify our messages as OOG or IG in the opposite context; IE, primarily for sending an OOG message in an IG context. I don't think that the other way is appropriate due to the nature of the problems we are trying to solve.
Third, I think, at some point, age should be incorporated into the profile as a required field, and have "Adult" chatrooms/forums where no one under a certain age is to be admitted. That way, those who want to go and get rowdy can do so, without language filters or explicitness rules.
Please comment on these suggestions as I would like to include potential rules covering them in the RoC.
One last note; I read the discussion between Palish and BIO in the el33t forum and I have one comment on it (but since I promised that I wouldn't bother them again unless they want me to, I will post it here): Yes, moderators are to be obeyed. If a moderator tells you to do something, DO IT. Don't ask questions, don't challenge it, just DO IT. If you feel the request is out of line, then email PaleStar about it, or post it on the moderator feedback forum (be civil, though). Continuing to defy the request of a moderator IS GROUNDS for being kicked/banned. Being a moderator means that the person is shouldering a great deal of responsibility for trying to do everything he/she can to keep the community cohesive and inviting to all players. They are charged with seeing the forest, NOT just the trees. Players, on the other hand, only see it from the point of view of their own particular tree and need to try and understand the terrible responsibility that comes with being a moderator. If any moderator does not recognize and accept this responsibility or is only there to abuse the power (and thus, shuck the responsibility), then he/she WILL be dealt with quickly AND severely.
As a LARP organizer, I have always stressed to my players and staff that volunteer staff positions are 99.9% responsibility/work and 0.01% power-tripping. They ARE work, pure and simple. Anyone who thinks it is cool to be a staffer only due to the false sense of prestige it affords them is in for a RUDE awakening. Not to mention the fact that the awakening may often result in being dismissed permanently as a staffer if they can't get up to speed quickly over this one little truth.
Thanks,
_________________
Selvarian
Caitian Defense Corps
Signing Out
[ This Message was edited by: Selvarian on 2001-10-31 11:45 ]
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Selvarian
Prime Engineer
Caitian Defense Corps
Founding Member - Interstellar Mercenary Corps
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Lord_Binary
Midshipman
Joined: June 20, 2001
Posts: 459
From: €/Austria/Sol-System
| Posted: 2001-10-31 13:40
well, my 2 cents:
I do NOT see ANY "problematic" statemnts in THIS particular chatlog.
But it's a *fact* that some el33t members
permanentely show bad behaviour
and language @ lobby chat 
sure, it would have been very simple for them to avoid confict: just doing what BIo said: creating an el33t chat room.
[ This Message was edited by: Lord_Binary on 2001-10-31 13:51 ]
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Deleted
Midshipman
Joined:
Posts: 0
| Posted: 2001-10-31 14:03
ROFL, my clan has a lot of problems, yes. I'm trying to work things out. Sorry again for this trouble.
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shadedancer
Cadet
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: July 26, 2001
Posts: 497
From: Hamburg, Germany, Sol-System
| Posted: 2001-11-02 04:27
Hello Selvarian,
you asked us to comment on your proposals, this shall do for me:
Quote:
| On 2001-10-31 11:23, Selvarian wrote:
As such, I propose the following:
1) The creation of an in-game chatroom. Here, the gloves can come off and you can bash and talk trash up to the limits of the RoC (no belittling the *player*, no foul / sexually explicit language, etc). Note that player experience is OOG info; ie, referring to someone as a "n00b" in the IG chatroom is out of context. You can make fun of their rank or the fact that they fly their ship like a rookie, but the idea is to avoid coming close to the line between IG/OOG (let alone crossing it). This chatroom will be in addition to the normal chatrooms that already exist. The existing chatrooms will be listed as OOG *ONLY*, meaning you can chat about anything, but you cannot take on your persona and display his/her attitudes/behaviour there in any way. You can talk about them in the third person, if you like, but the RPing has to be done in whispers, in the IG room, or in a temporary room. |
|
I like this one, I was allways a fan of in-game fiction and OOG discussion, we shall give fans of all communities a place to live their favoured style of playing. Of cause the belittleing of players can't be allowed anywhere, which might propose a problem for the in-game rooms, where mods would have to be from time to time and should also behave in-game.
Quote:
| In addition, the various forums would need to be segregated into IG/OOG classifications.
I think all of the clan forums should be listed as IG and all of the others OOG. It would also be good for us to discuss a standard way to identify our messages as OOG or IG in the opposite context; IE, primarily for sending an OOG message in an IG context. I don't think that the other way is appropriate due to the nature of the problems we are trying to solve. |
|
Follows logically from the first proposal...
Quote:
| Third, I think, at some point, age should be incorporated into the profile as a required field, and have "Adult" chatrooms/forums where no one under a certain age is to be admitted. That way, those who want to go and get rowdy can do so, without language filters or explicitness rules. |
|
It should be made clear that belittleing (nice word btw, is it really proper english?) in these "Adult" boards is frowned upon. Especially if it does set down ppl who can't read/write in these boards. Also perhaps we need to think about that a bit more, for it might build a two class system: those who are able to access all the forums and those which are restricted and neglected for that reason. I don't say that it has to be that way, I only want to mention this could happen and I for meself would't like DS to be that way.
Quote:
| One last note; I read the discussion between Palish and BIO in the el33t forum and I have one comment on it (but since I promised
[...] |
|
Well I haven't commented on the whole discussion mainly because I'm anxiuos to be (argh, needing more vocabulary, I'll start all over again)
Me affiliated with BIS seemed to be the wrong person to comment on any discussion made in the different forums, but I do here now, because Selvarian mentioned some things I strongly support Selvarians position here:
1. Taking responsibilities and duties (yes, it's a duty for me) as a moderator grants me certain rights.
2. In certain situations I'm bound to decide fast on the situation at hand, and I'll possibly do the right or wrong decission. As a human I do errors, allthough I try to minimize.
3. If I do decissions I'm bound to critiszim afterwards, and I stand me full responisibilty to that, if ppl feel that I abused me power as a mod, they should appeal to Palestar, which might, depending on the situation, speak right for me or the "offender". This is what I must accept as Moderator as well, that I might have handled the situation wrong, and get reprimanded about it. If I severly stepped over me rights, I deserve to loose me status as a moderator.
I overheard a lot of talk on the chat lobby, that one nice thing about the DS community is the overall nice treatment ppl give each other, and I'd like to keep this. Some ppl might call it censorship, but me I think that it's something completly different to ask ppl to behave a certain way (developed and wanted by the community), as to do censorship, which implies I hinder certain ppl to speak up.
BTW here is a Forum to speak about mods in every aspect. Abuse, honoring, application for sending them money 
If anybody feels this model devides mods and players to far from each other, then stand up and name the ppl which do step the line, which do abuse their powers and propose some different model! These are free Forums (to a certain degree) where everybody of our community might speak up (in a civil manner) and does get recognized.
Huh, I hope, that I didn't tipp anybodys toes to hard, this is only what I think on the whole discussion about moderators.
yours shadedancer 
PS: Sorry for any orthographic, gramar and other errors, I tried me very best.
[ This Message was edited by: shadedancer on 2001-11-02 04:45 ]
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shadedancer(@3423) ClanID ($38)
Director to Bionic InduStries [BIS]
One rule: Don't be stupid!
It's an expansive rule that covers a lot of ground
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chris aka sunshine
Cadet
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1649
From: Germany
| Posted: 2001-11-02 07:49
the "Bionicman Topic" is closed!
http://www.palestar.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=2619&forum=37&24 ..
there you can read my statement, and i hope the whole discussion comes to an end 
i'm not interested in permanent infighting, thx
[ This Message was edited by: sunshine on 2001-11-02 07:54 ]
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Christian 'sunshine' Weyand
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