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Danek Ma`arna C`arns
Fleet Admiral

Joined: March 26, 2004
Posts: 102
From: Atlanta
Posted: 2004-04-23 18:18   
First thing up is.. Give us information.

How big is each ship? What is the Hull value of each? How much power does a Engine create? How much power does moving 15 gu/s take? How much power does it take to shoot an AR Missile? What is the range of an AR Missile? How much damage does an AR Missile do? How much damage can that shield or this Armor withstand? How fast will it repair?

This is a technologically based futuristic game. It is not post apocalyse or the dark ages. The people of the time would know these things, and we should too.

WHile we are on the subject, the only current power reading we had in game is the remaining charge in capacitor. We also need change indicator... to let us know it is charging or being drained and by how much. An analog gauge found in most automobiles cannot be that out of place in a futuristic starcruiser.

I understand the need for locked planets. After you build your most excellent planet, you do not want some hippie coming along and scraping your shipyard and factories to build an all food planet, saying "Feed the hungery, not your fascist war machine!" However, locking the planet also locks those same shipyards and factories. I assume this is for resource wasters and their prevention in a low resource situation. However, is there a way to split this function? A seperate "NO BUILD OR SCRAP" lock that still allows use of the facilities? Or just remove the resource lock completely. The same waster is still able to buy all the resources at the starport even when the planet is locked.

On factories, the que is small and the needs are large. Can the factories be made to automate? Let them build automatically until the starport has a certain number of each item the factory can produce... or if it is a series, the best its tech level or resources will let it produce. It could also scrap extra items for returned resources.

In this, I mean a planet with an ICC factory and a starport would set out building IE Drives (and everything else). Once it got a high enough tech level and had resources, it would switch to AFE, PFE, and AME drives, attempting to keep 50 on hand at all times, if possible. During the course, once it was producing AFE drives, it would begin scraping all the IE drives for resources, keeping 50 total drives on hand at all times. As more people switch out, it contines to produce AMEs and scrap the incoming IEs. While doing this, it is also producing Active shields and scrapping reactive shields.

Clearly, you would not want this feature on shipyard planets, or when building, as it would drain the resources... so maybe a maunal control/automated control button similar to the I/HI control on barracks? I know it has already been said that an upgrade option will be available in future versions. Perhaps if not a switch, then perhaps the automated factory would be a second level upgrade for the factory?

I assume the planets are limited to 32 buildings because each building is processor load. At the same time, we have far too much control over the planets themselves. In much the same way that Terran Planets have invisible support for population, would it be viable to completely remove the ability to build civilian structures? Let the planets manage their own Population, Food, Research, and Mining. Players should only be able to build Defenses, Shipyards, Starports, Barracks, Factories, and Depots... using what ever power, workers, and tech level the planet provides for them. Of course, the number of structures per planet could then be signifigantly reduced.

After preaching on the podium of realism for this long, I know want to flip flop totally. I know your view that the logoff teleport is an exploit, or, at least, a frowned upon grey area. Please, embrace this instead. Allow any ship placed in a shipyard to be spawned at any other faction controlled shipyard. I know this is unrealistic. I know this is defeating the feel of the long distance travel, the purpose of the warpgates. However, every system is not connected by warpgate. There are large areas of no warpgates. Most ships cannot even jump from one star system to another.

It is a constant affair to spawn a ship, find a factory, build in the factory for 12 minutes, mod a ship, fight for 3 minutes, dock the ship in the SY and begin the whole affair anew. Player created Wormholes are neither common enough nor reliable enough to be used for routine travel. They are useful and important for new strikes into enemy held systems only.

If this is impossible to accept as a proposal, then please remove the "fuel" from the jumpdrives. A longer jump with a pretty good chance of crashing even though the way is clear is to be prefered over the endless modding and waste of resources because a startship cannot carry enough fuel to leave the system in which it was built. Travel limitations are a common thing in the beginning of MMOs. Designers believe them to add to the atmosphere, the setting. The first few times you cross from Freeport to Qeynos... you get the fear in Highpass, the awe of the EK canyon, the wonder of the bridges in North Karana. After those few times, it just becomes a highly unpopular pain in the ass. They always relent on the travel restrictions for the overall good of the game. Darkspaces has at its greatest strength incredible action... the very first MMO to actually get PvP right.

On that note, please allow players to have three slots to fill with a ship mod so they can spawn it straight from the shipyard. This would be home tech only, of course, but what is the point of forcing everyone to spawn with reactive shields and IE drives? That just fuels the mentioned above behavior. So a person builds a heavy cruiser during a slow time... mounts active shields, AME drives, a FR1500, 4 sabot and 4 fusion torpedoes. If the action gets close qurters, he is ready. Then he goes tot he shipyard and saves this ship in one of his three slots. He can now produce this Heavy Cruiser and it will spawn with these mods each time. If a balancing act is needed, loss of these ships could have a higher prestige loss... marking them as double the lost resources or something.

Along with the Target Nearest Enemy hotkey, we need a Target Nearest Small Enemy hot key... enabling us to rapidly target those annoying missiles and fighters that PD seems to miss.

Corvettes, Frigates and Destroyers need a rework in design and purpose. Corvettes are currently totally at the mercy of missiles and fighters, yet mount several heavy weapons, Frigtes run a range of Cruiser level firepower to none, and destroyers are pretty much completely overlooked as the ranks it falls under can surpassed in three hours in a supply ship.

Aside from the required bomber versions, each class needs an assault version with size appropriate firepower (long range), and an escourt version with enhanced Point Defense weapons, allowing it (with the help of three or four like vessels) to act as an anti fighter and missile screen for an entire task force. Both of these versions would need to make heavy use of Electronic Warfare devices.

With the coming fighter changes as they are planned, a dedicated antifighter platform will be needed, and it will need to be done at ranges far longer than current PD allows. Placing the smaller vessels closer to the enemy so they can intercept the fighters just turns the screening vessel into the first poorly defended target. Fighters tearing a big, slow, and alone dread to pieces is a good thing, but players using tactics need a way to protect them. You want more people in smaller vessels, this is the perfect way to do it. Fighter kills may need to become a pretige gaining activity, however, or at least a tracked stat.

My final thing is a pet peave. Remove the Engineering ship from the Midshipman list. Move it up to 1st Lt at least. The supply ship, however, needs to be moved down the list to midshipman, however. New players need a way to be useful, and supply is the best way. And the last thing you want a midshipman doing is engineering. I would raise it up to Captain, but you need it for the newbie server.

Darkspace is a remarkable game. You have pulse pounding action in a space game. The action will not fade because it is not AI monsters and rote "tactics", but PvP. You are the only MMO to get PvP right... where dying painful enough that you want to avoid it, but not so crippling that you want to shoot your neighbor when you die. Death is not Free like Planetside or DAoC, nor do you lose items for which you spent months saving. Emphasize the action, demphasize the slow activities of building and travel. It might be strategic, but its not fun.
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Dauphin
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy


Joined: April 27, 2003
Posts: 349
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posted: 2004-04-23 18:41   
Some very good suggestions, but the changes to shipyards you mentioned were already removed, so it's very unlikely that they will enable shipyard jumping again.

Everything else was perfect. However, don't expect changes any time soon. I'm sure the devs are already very busy.
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Antdizzle


Joined: February 07, 2003
Posts: 860
Posted: 2004-04-23 21:45   
not really.. i mean shig played a game...he NEVER plays..
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CowboyFunk
Vice Admiral

Joined: December 28, 2003
Posts: 145
From: ?
Posted: 2004-04-23 22:20   
my brain hurts...
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Shigernafy
Admiral

Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
Posted: 2004-04-24 00:58   
That was a very nice, comprehensive and insightful post. In fact, a number of those issues were on our todo list (which is, unfortunately, a mile long at this point).

I don't have the energy at the moment to go through it in any detail, but I'll just say that I enjoyed your suggestions, and I hope that most all of them can make it into the game - and I will do my best to advocate for them.
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Puny
1st Rear Admiral

Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 117
From: Gettysburg, PA
Posted: 2004-04-24 17:21   
Very nice, it was a good read. Most of your points are well-thought out and comprehensive.

Just to add a little bit...
Fighters should be more progammable, instead of just "launching a fighter" and watch it do it's own thing. You should be able to give it commands from a distance. Such as a CTRL 1 could command it to attack a single ship CTRL 2 could send it against enemy fighters, CTRL 3 could send it to escort a ship and tag along with it and make sure that is it well protected without having to waste another ship to escort it.

I'd just like to say.... There needs to be a way to BUILD FIGHTERS on the planet! Seriously, I never-ever see a "Construct B27 Fighter" icon, but I do see ones that people unload them and sell the slot to the StarPort.

See ya' in da' MV!
-Puny
_________________


Gideon
Cadet

Joined: September 14, 2001
Posts: 4604
From: Oregon, USA
Posted: 2004-04-24 18:50   
Quote:

First thing up is.. Give us information.

How big is each ship? What is the Hull value of each? How much power does a Engine create? How much power does moving 15 gu/s take? How much power does it take to shoot an AR Missile? What is the range of an AR Missile? How much damage does an AR Missile do? How much damage can that shield or this Armor withstand? How fast will it repair?



Faustus, early on, determined a complete prohibition on revealing precise ship dimentions. I have no idea why. I'll probably wind up breaking this rule before too long, as I don't really see a reason for it.

As for functioning component statistics...hrm. On one hand, we want players to find the component balances themselves. On the other hand, documenting this for them helps gameplay. We'll most likely settle on a compromise, post v1.482. A system which gives a rough list of the stats for each component, but not precise information, and not in terms of real-world measurements. Why not real world measurements? Well because, quite frankly, I don't think we posses enough engineering and scientific knowledge within the dev team to do it credibly.

Quote:

WHile we are on the subject, the only current power reading we had in game is the remaining charge in capacitor. We also need change indicator... to let us know it is charging or being drained and by how much. An analog gauge found in most automobiles cannot be that out of place in a futuristic starcruiser.



Yeah. I am always in favor of giving the players as much feedback as possible in game. The only problem is, making sure the interface doesn't become over-crowded. Then, it just becomes a cluttered mess, which defeats the whole purpose of providing information. That being, to aleviate confusion, rather than create it.

Quote:

I understand the need for locked planets. After you build your most excellent planet, you do not want some hippie coming along and scraping your shipyard and factories to build an all food planet, saying "Feed the hungery, not your fascist war machine!" However, locking the planet also locks those same shipyards and factories. I assume this is for resource wasters and their prevention in a low resource situation. However, is there a way to split this function? A seperate "NO BUILD OR SCRAP" lock that still allows use of the facilities? Or just remove the resource lock completely. The same waster is still able to buy all the resources at the starport even when the planet is locked.



A locking system which provides players with a way to more precisely control the specifics of a lock is on the table. Just a couple of more pressing concerns to address first.

Quote:

On factories, the que is small and the needs are large. Can the factories be made to automate? Let them build automatically until the starport has a certain number of each item the factory can produce... or if it is a series, the best its tech level or resources will let it produce. It could also scrap extra items for returned resources.

In this, I mean a planet with an ICC factory and a starport would set out building IE Drives (and everything else). Once it got a high enough tech level and had resources, it would switch to AFE, PFE, and AME drives, attempting to keep 50 on hand at all times, if possible. During the course, once it was producing AFE drives, it would begin scraping all the IE drives for resources, keeping 50 total drives on hand at all times. As more people switch out, it contines to produce AMEs and scrap the incoming IEs. While doing this, it is also producing Active shields and scrapping reactive shields.

Clearly, you would not want this feature on shipyard planets, or when building, as it would drain the resources... so maybe a maunal control/automated control button similar to the I/HI control on barracks? I know it has already been said that an upgrade option will be available in future versions. Perhaps if not a switch, then perhaps the automated factory would be a second level upgrade for the factory?



Our current in game economic controls (of which, interfacing with factories is concidered a part) are complete and utter pap. Major work is required here. Particularly from the next version on, as there will, hopefully, no longer be any "useless" components, but just components which are better for different situations. Because of this, more variety of components will have to be on hand. Then, when we go over the better technology system, with upgrade levels to each component...well, as you can see, our current interface (or should I say, lack of interface) is completely unacceptable.

Quote:

I assume the planets are limited to 32 buildings because each building is processor load. At the same time, we have far too much control over the planets themselves. In much the same way that Terran Planets have invisible support for population, would it be viable to completely remove the ability to build civilian structures? Let the planets manage their own Population, Food, Research, and Mining. Players should only be able to build Defenses, Shipyards, Starports, Barracks, Factories, and Depots... using what ever power, workers, and tech level the planet provides for them. Of course, the number of structures per planet could then be signifigantly reduced.



We are actually currently concidering whether to give players more and more detailed and in depth controls over planets (with more options) as time goes by. Structure number per planet actually isn't a terrible load on the servers right now, it accounts for a fairly small percentage of the actual use, and actual use is a fairly small percentage of potential processing power.

Quote:

After preaching on the podium of realism for this long, I know want to flip flop totally. I know your view that the logoff teleport is an exploit, or, at least, a frowned upon grey area. Please, embrace this instead. Allow any ship placed in a shipyard to be spawned at any other faction controlled shipyard. I know this is unrealistic. I know this is defeating the feel of the long distance travel, the purpose of the warpgates. However, every system is not connected by warpgate. There are large areas of no warpgates. Most ships cannot even jump from one star system to another.

It is a constant affair to spawn a ship, find a factory, build in the factory for 12 minutes, mod a ship, fight for 3 minutes, dock the ship in the SY and begin the whole affair anew. Player created Wormholes are neither common enough nor reliable enough to be used for routine travel. They are useful and important for new strikes into enemy held systems only.

If this is impossible to accept as a proposal, then please remove the "fuel" from the jumpdrives. A longer jump with a pretty good chance of crashing even though the way is clear is to be prefered over the endless modding and waste of resources because a startship cannot carry enough fuel to leave the system in which it was built. Travel limitations are a common thing in the beginning of MMOs. Designers believe them to add to the atmosphere, the setting. The first few times you cross from Freeport to Qeynos... you get the fear in Highpass, the awe of the EK canyon, the wonder of the bridges in North Karana. After those few times, it just becomes a highly unpopular pain in the ass. They always relent on the travel restrictions for the overall good of the game. Darkspaces has at its greatest strength incredible action... the very first MMO to actually get PvP right.



Well, nothing is "impossible". Some things are just too much of a pain in the ass to be worth the effort. However, design work has been put forth to revamp the travel system. Faustus introduced the current shipyard limitations to prevent players from teleporting in freash ships to a shipyard from elsewhere. No, I know this actually isn't the central problem with shipyards. It's just explainging why Faustus decided to do what he did. As to what future moves will be taken...well, there is a small conflict brewing between the school that wants to make things more "realistic", and the school that feels that the proposed level of "realism" will hurt gameplay. No word on what school will win at this time.

Quote:

On that note, please allow players to have three slots to fill with a ship mod so they can spawn it straight from the shipyard. This would be home tech only, of course, but what is the point of forcing everyone to spawn with reactive shields and IE drives? That just fuels the mentioned above behavior. So a person builds a heavy cruiser during a slow time... mounts active shields, AME drives, a FR1500, 4 sabot and 4 fusion torpedoes. If the action gets close qurters, he is ready. Then he goes tot he shipyard and saves this ship in one of his three slots. He can now produce this Heavy Cruiser and it will spawn with these mods each time. If a balancing act is needed, loss of these ships could have a higher prestige loss... marking them as double the lost resources or something.



Well, allowing players to preload a ship, and then have that ship spawned when they select it for creation is on the table. However, please keep in mind that one of our guiding concepts for the next version and beyond is to eliminate the "junk" components. We plan to do this, by making each component have it's own strengths and weaknesses. Because of this, a "stock" ship wouldn't actually suck, and would be a useful ship in combat, right out of the gate. After all, what government would have it's standard military vessles actually use the worst possible equipment in existance as standard? It might use the cheapest, but not seek out the absolute worst.

Quote:

Along with the Target Nearest Enemy hotkey, we need a Target Nearest Small Enemy hot key... enabling us to rapidly target those annoying missiles and fighters that PD seems to miss.



Actually, I favor simply making the point defense code work correctly and efficiently.

Quote:

Corvettes, Frigates and Destroyers need a rework in design and purpose. Corvettes are currently totally at the mercy of missiles and fighters, yet mount several heavy weapons, Frigtes run a range of Cruiser level firepower to none, and destroyers are pretty much completely overlooked as the ranks it falls under can surpassed in three hours in a supply ship.



No ship is left unchanged from the next version on. This includes corvettes, frigates, and destroyers.

Quote:

Aside from the required bomber versions, each class needs an assault version with size appropriate firepower (long range), and an escourt version with enhanced Point Defense weapons, allowing it (with the help of three or four like vessels) to act as an anti fighter and missile screen for an entire task force. Both of these versions would need to make heavy use of Electronic Warfare devices.



Well, each type of ship (such as "assault") will actually imply certain design philosophies in the next version on. However, not all ship classes are appropriate for all tasks. Slower ships are simply not as suited to tasks that require faster tactics. Likewise, smaller ships are not as suited to tasks that require very heavy firepower and durabiltiy. Just a few simple logic rules are brought into the design process.

Quote:

With the coming fighter changes as they are planned, a dedicated antifighter platform will be needed, and it will need to be done at ranges far longer than current PD allows. Placing the smaller vessels closer to the enemy so they can intercept the fighters just turns the screening vessel into the first poorly defended target. Fighters tearing a big, slow, and alone dread to pieces is a good thing, but players using tactics need a way to protect them. You want more people in smaller vessels, this is the perfect way to do it. Fighter kills may need to become a pretige gaining activity, however, or at least a tracked stat.



Well, fighters will be better than now, but won't be controling the game. Yes, they will be more potent. This falls in line with our plans to diminish the number present at once in game. At any rate, a screening vessel is planned for ICC and UGTO. K'Luth design philosophy is simply to not be detected, and thusly not be the subject of fighter attacks. This should be expressed through their new cloaking device rules. Remember, just because a ship is a large dreadnought, doesn't mean it's incapable of defending itself. After all, what's the point of building a massivly expensive warship if it's just going to be shreaded by the first wing of fighters that flys along? Ships arn't designed by George Lucas here.

Quote:

My final thing is a pet peave. Remove the Engineering ship from the Midshipman list. Move it up to 1st Lt at least. The supply ship, however, needs to be moved down the list to midshipman, however. New players need a way to be useful, and supply is the best way. And the last thing you want a midshipman doing is engineering. I would raise it up to Captain, but you need it for the newbie server.



It is required for the newbie server, as it is also the vehicle through which players will be creating space platforms. However, all ship requirements in terms of rank and badges are up for evaluation in the next version. So, we will keep your request in mind.

Quote:

Darkspace is a remarkable game. You have pulse pounding action in a space game. The action will not fade because it is not AI monsters and rote "tactics", but PvP. You are the only MMO to get PvP right... where dying painful enough that you want to avoid it, but not so crippling that you want to shoot your neighbor when you die. Death is not Free like Planetside or DAoC, nor do you lose items for which you spent months saving. Emphasize the action, demphasize the slow activities of building and travel. It might be strategic, but its not fun.



Some people enjoy the slower activities (yes, even travel). The trick is to provide a place and a use for every action in the game, but to not require every player to perform every task. That way, each player can enjoy the game in the way they want to, not the way we want them to. Yes, this is a lot harder way to design a game. I can honestly not think of a single game that has been designed for the online gaming market that follows this philosophy. However, since we are not beholden to a larger corporate interest, we can affort to take the risky and difficult path, and see what kind of rewards it may hold. Yes, this will take time to do, and yes, we will screw it up from time to time. That is the nature of all things worth doing.
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...and lo, He looked upon His creation, and said, "Fo shizzle."

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Meko
Grand Admiral

Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
Posted: 2004-04-24 18:59   
good post gid.

gave me a better understanding of whats going on in DS
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Koda
Marshal
Fatal Squadron


Joined: August 29, 2002
Posts: 1384
Posted: 2004-04-25 00:19   
Wow, a good read.

A few additions to the list id like to contribute.

1)Id would really like to see the "Target Diamonds" get an overhaul.. something with a 2004 feel to it.

I know $$ & time are tight .. But i think a new representation would go along way towards Keeping the Interface feel "Current".

Planet Diamonds are another story.. When buildings are built, they look good when you ZOOM in all the way. Why cant they be scalled up some? So it looks better than seeing a diamond? or a stack of boxes(troops). Not like were worried about scale? CoughLUNAvsSTATIONCough.. Also giving the building types some differences other then color also between diamonds, and other Geometric shapes.. Hearts, stars, clovers, and balloons?

2)A Change in talking to your enemys. Its cool that we have the ability to Chat with our Enemys. When the night is slow, its fun and good know your enemy. Although I would really like to see some sort of Ship to Ship Hail Accept, b4 you get spamed. In addition, if all 3 factions could have a ship that had the ability to Esdrop on enemy com chatter, as long as they had a line of sight or somthing.

3) Escape pods, along with escape shuttles for larger class ships. This would create a need for people to try to save there buddys, and tales of heros could be hallowed in the fourms of DS. Also larger bounties placed on those who "seek" to make new friends by killing shuttles and crew pods. With the Capt/Admiral being on ONE of the Many Pods Ejected by ships in the dying phase. ABANDONING SHIP (cntrl ?x2 + 10 secs for you to eject)would only be an option for those trying to take some burden off there Death tally..

Also Carriers would be a great help to any fleet, if fighters could help in Rescue missions.


-Char

[ This Message was edited by: CharAznable on 2004-04-25 00:22 ]
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Southpark
Admiral

Joined: February 25, 2004
Posts: 132
From: Texas
Posted: 2004-04-25 00:36   
hehe, crowded interface? i play on a 1600x1200 screen and a 1280x1024 screen, on neither is the interface even close to being crowded, i even have a "complaint" about the interface being too sparse. when modding my ship, i have to actually drag my mouse ALL The way from the left to the right.. over and over.. at 1600pixels of resolution, thats a long trip hehe..

i vote for a "custom" interface where we can move the portions around a little ^_^

i know its on the list somewhere probably, and really low on the list..

just wanted to let ya'll know that the interface is far from crowded imo, and probably only gets crowded if you're playing at 800x600 or smaller.

minor edit: the interface is too small actually for a 1600x1200 display, i have a hard time clicking on some of the buttons sometimes in the "frenzy" of battle, but it is nice to be able to see everything hehe

[ This Message was edited by: Southpark on 2004-04-25 00:37 ]
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Gideon
Cadet

Joined: September 14, 2001
Posts: 4604
From: Oregon, USA
Posted: 2004-04-25 11:57   
Fautsus has the interface designed around 800X600, in keeping with the minimum system requirements for DS. I play it at a much higher resolution, as well.

Escape pods would be included if/when we get into a crew aspect of the simulation. Rewards would be present for rescuing crew from ships. Crew would gain XP. Etc... No word on a timetable for this feature, or even if we will include it, or decide it detracts from the general gameplay.
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...and lo, He looked upon His creation, and said, "Fo shizzle."

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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
Posted: 2004-04-25 12:27   
i play it at highest it goes...but yeh, thanks gideon, i made a post about wanting to know what was going on and what we could expect in 1.482, what was being fixed etc...you nearly got it all there thanks...
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Fatal Destruction[formally ZeroG]
Cadet

Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 35
From: OMG, Im lost somewhere in Georgia!
Posted: 2004-04-25 19:13   
Very good reading and very good post(s). Like most of the ideas. BTW, is there a estimation, guess or idea of release of v1.482?
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Doran
Chief Marshal
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 29, 2003
Posts: 4032
From: The Gideon Unit
Posted: 2004-04-25 19:37   
2 Weeks™
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Antdizzle


Joined: February 07, 2003
Posts: 860
Posted: 2004-04-25 21:21   
Quote:

On 2004-04-25 19:37, Doran wrote:
2 Weeks™




you forgot the (2 weeks ™ is a trademark of palestar ranging from the length of 2 weeks to but not limited to infiniti) ..or something like that..
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