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Prestige system problems (Long) |
TAZ
Cadet
Joined: July 04, 2002
Posts: 143
From: U.S.A.
|  Posted: 2004-05-07 00:48
I like this idea, it has merit! However, I think something more than just time should be used to determine rank, my suggestion, badges!!
While in the Army, I learned that some ranks were compulsory, meaning that you recieved them for having time in service, unless you had done something wrong and required discipline! Other ranks were earned not only by time in service, but were awarded according to points, and those points were earned, for the most point, based on medals and awards earned.
Now someone could take the time to figure out how many combat/build/repair/etc points should be required for promotion to each rank, or that same someone could use the current requirements for badges and require that certain badges be required for certain ranks. Sort of like the requirements for certain ships are now!
This would allow rank to be set by both time and experience!! I dont know about you but seing a FA or GA flying around who still dont have a gold star because he never took the time to learn how to build a planet and only has a bronze engineering badge is a little lame!! If your gonna have the rank to command others in the game then in my opinion you should know all aspects of the game, not just combat!!
Well thats my two cents worth anywho!!
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2004-05-07 01:17
Quote:
| Prestige would remain the same, as in you would still gain it, youd still gain bomber supply and combat points, but prestige would NOT Determine Ranks. |
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Quote:
| Virtually all specialized ships should require heavy badge stats, with some ships accessible only after a long and arduous effort at aiding your team. |
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This is my player opinion, fyi; no Dev-ness is included herein.
I wouldn't mind a different way of determining rank, where prestige doesn't do it directly. However, I don't think that purely your time around should do it. Ideally (well, for me), we could make it more of a military system, whereby your time around would basically get you promoted to a minimum rank (say, VA in a year) even if you're the worst player ever. This would be handled by an automated system, mostly.
However, there'd also be a command HQ sort of thing, where the leaders of each faction (a dozen, at most... how they're chosen is out of the scope of this post) get notices about all the folks in the Navy who are due for an automated promotion.. and they can delay it a small amount if they think the person needs more time, or push it through early if the player is doing exceptionally well.
This would, of course, work best in an MV setting, where Factions are distinct profiles, or there's some sort of a detriment to changing (ie, petition for rank in the new faction, etc).
Past VA, there would be only a minimum time committment required to attain a rank, but the actual promotion would come from the Faction leaders. Thus, it would require a bit of devotion and skill to advance up to the real power ships. The time minimum would keep people from promoting their friends unduly, though.
Additionally, as Vinco mentioned, a different badge system would be nice. I envision something with higher minimums, but also more levels after our current gold. So you might, in addition to your Admiral rank (gained by skill, time, and factional respect), require 7500 bombing points for the Bomber Cruiser. This would reward those who specialize in certain aspects by making highly specialized ships available with very high badge rewards (perhaps even a 20,000 point level, or so, for the highest level of specialization), while also requiring a well-rounded player to gain ships like the EAD.
It would require quite the redo of our current system, but I think this sort of reform would add depth to the rank system, as well as provide more factional identity, and factional leadership - perhaps a function for the GAs: they form the upper echelon of leadership, with elections every so often determining the Executive Council, which is in charge of promotions.
How's that sound?
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2004-05-07 01:20
Quote:
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What if you would calculate rank apart from total prestige. You can actually calculate a players skill like this:
take all the good things
and divide them by all the bad things
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It sounds remarkably similar to our current system.. except you use division rather than subtraction...
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2004-05-07 01:21
Quote:
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On 2004-05-07 00:48, TAZ wrote:
... a system whereby promotions come from both time and experience ...
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Heh, guess I should really click on to the next page before I post my response, since ours are quite similar... but in my defense, I hadn't read yours before I posted mine. 
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TAZ
Cadet
Joined: July 04, 2002
Posts: 143
From: U.S.A.
| Posted: 2004-05-07 01:47
Thats okay shig, you added some valid points with your post! My only concearn with having an executive council for deciding promotions past a certain rank though is the good old boy network!!
I noticed that you mentioned a way to keep people from getting promoted out of turn due to freindship, but how about a way for those who might be getting held back because they arent well liked by someone with a lot a influence on the council??
Politics, they always add a new level to something otherwise simple!!
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2004-05-07 02:54
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On 2004-05-07 01:17, Shigernafy wrote:
Additionally, as Vinco mentioned, a different badge system would be nice. I envision something with higher minimums, but also more levels after our current gold. So you might, in addition to your Admiral rank (gained by skill, time, and factional respect), require 7500 bombing points for the Bomber Cruiser. This would reward those who specialize in certain aspects by making highly specialized ships available with very high badge rewards (perhaps even a 20,000 point level, or so, for the highest level of specialization), while also requiring a well-rounded player to gain ships like the EAD.
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FAR to high, way way to high, I like my AD rank as I worked hard to get it. The last thing we want is to make it hard to get those gold badges etc. Ships v level, is pretty balanced id say. I cant see any problem appart from the Siphon and gang, because ICC and UGTO get thier attack dreads @ Ad. But its only a minor gripe and a VERY minor one at that. Doing something that takes away a ship I can pilot right now, wouldnt make me a happy bunny, and im pretty sure other people wouldnt like it either.
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Barthezzz
Fleet Admiral
Joined: May 31, 2001
Posts: 5630
From: The Netherlands
| Posted: 2004-05-07 06:16
I dont think this system would help Ds at all.
As already pointed out; Youd have to sit around and do nothing for 2 weeks just to reach Ensign.
Do you really think new players are gonna play the game for 2 weeks with about 4 diffrent ships just so they can get 3 more ships?
I sure as hell wouldnt.
Or having to wait 2.5 Months! Just to get a decend combat ship.
If you want to make it time based then make it so people reach commander after a week. Or rather after a certain amount of time played.
That way they can actually get usefull ships and be of any use to the rest of us.
Id rather see the rank system somewhat dynamic, like only the top 3% of the subbed player base can be a FA. The top 4-10% can be Admiral.
Youd then actually have to compete with other players to stay maintain your rank.
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Pope
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 11, 2002
Posts: 2449
From: World of tomorrow
| Posted: 2004-05-07 07:30
Uhh.. I'm sorry to say, but i strongly oppose the entire concept.
What are the goals of the Prestige system?
- Provide a "Level Treadmill" to keep People involved
- Provide a Measure for individual Tasks a Player has fulfilled, to determine his specialization
- Provide statistics about various other values
- Punishment for misaction (FF, Death)
What are the goals of having specialized Ships scaled in Hull Size?
- Provide for a variety of roles a pilot can fulfill
- Provide a continous advance in Ship Power as the Pilot steps up the Level Treadmill
A time-based Prestige system leaves the Player with a Level Treadmill that he has absolutely no way of influencing his Progress in. There is no incentive to increase your Skill; there is hardly an incentive to Play in the first place apart from earning your badges. Once you have 1000 Supply points, why would you ever supply anyone again? Why would you participate actively in a game when just continuing doing whatever gains you the stat you currently need is more important?
My proposal is this:
As a Player plays the game, he gains points for his actions as well as playtime. Any Playtime period X in which the Player gained or lost (!) any Points will be counted towards his Prestige for a relatively low, but not negligible amount.
Any points gained will also be counted to his prestige with a variation of the current Formula-based system.
Prestige is independent from the points once calculated. The delta of points and resulting change to Prestige during Period X is calculated at the end of each X, and applied.
This is how the raw Rank is calculated, based on Playtime and points.
Points, however, also decay. They could be stored with a daily or weekly timestamp. If a player has not built a Planet for over 1000 Periods of X, then he will not be able to fly an Advanved Engineer, because he lost the badge. He did not (see above) lose the associated Prestige, however.
Additionally to the Badge-oriented system, there could be a Rank override. If someone has attained the Rank of Grand Admiral, he should be able to fly all Ships that require a Rank of Command regardless of Badges.
Additionally, not only the distance between the Ranks should increase as the Player advances the Level Treadmill, but also the expectations towards the Player as a pilot should rise.
A Grand Admiral should be punished severly harder for the loss of a low-level Ship than someone who just got access to said ship.
Note that nowhere here does the time since subscription apply, only the time played. Even this only amounts to a small amount of Prestige.
The decay of Points is also based on Play time during which none of those Points are gained.
In order to address the Problem with GA accumulation, which by the way any Experience points based Game system has, I want to make the following proposal:
Scale the Rank differences based on the current total Prestige of all active (subscribed) Players. However, this should probably not be done linearly. Someone with database access could build statistics that could help figure out how to do this.
To prevent the loss of Rank, simply hold Accounts at their achieved Ranks, and let them advance only when they meet the new requirements.
This encourages active participation in the Game during playtime, as opposed to just encouraging gaining Rank w/ lobbing lots of Torps at the enemy, or, worse, sitting in the Lobby because you are bored of not being able to influence you advancement.
Let me stress again that IMHO a purely subscribed time based Rank system will be a very, very bad idea. In order for the "Level Treadmill" to work, the Player has to be in control of it! I'd rather see no Rank system at all than this.
If i didn't make sense, i will happily make a diagram
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[small][ This Message was edited by: Zrmlgarash on 2004-05-07 07:53 ][/small]
[ This Message was edited by: Zrmlgarash on 2004-05-07 08:09 ]
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Wyke {ThorsHammer}
Cadet
Joined: February 22, 2003
Posts: 416
| Posted: 2004-05-07 08:23
Quote:
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On 2004-05-06 21:49, Meko wrote:
bad idea wyke..... then if sopmeone stopped playing and someone else earned more pres theyd be demoted
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Well at the moment the ranks are top heavy, if this is going to be addressed, we need a new system. We have several solutions.
We could have a steady addition of new ranks at the top end. This has the additional problem, that there is going to be pressure to reward those new ranks, you only have to consider the “New ships for GA” discussions.
An alternative is to look for steady (exponential) increase in new players, to keep the rank curve steady, this would eventually also need new ranks at the top end to give the senior players a target.
I don't think either of these presents a good long term solution. This leaves two alternatives, keep the status quo or introduce a new system.
I think a new rank system should preserve all current stats, but must decouple rank from a static table of values = rank.
Any new system must see some players lose some rank, otherwise it doesn't address the main cause for the change. We could have a big-bang approach for the whole community via a partial or complete reset before the introduction of a new system. I think a complete profile reset would be a killer blow for DS.
The alternative is a progressive system that is as painless as possible and corrects it's self over time. I think my suggestion does that and although my suggestion implies a rank drops, this need not be compulsory. The scheme could easily be used only for promotion and a player would never drop in rank, but would have an steadily increasing target, to increase increase in rank.
Though why somebody should be rewarded “If [they] stop playing” escapes me.
It would also be a good idea if the ranking was within faction. This would have the bonus of encouraging people to join the numerically weaker faction because this would likely acheive a higher rank at any given prestige value.
Also if as already been suggested, ship availability become linked to badges, and rank become primarily about influence, command and bragging rights, I think players would accept it more readily, that a profile reset.
[ This Message was edited by: Wyke on 2004-05-07 08:43 ]
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Piotr-san
Chief Marshal
*Renegade Space Marines*
Joined: July 18, 2002
Posts: 385
From: Poland
| Posted: 2004-05-07 08:57
Quote:
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On 2004-05-06 23:59, Hirad Coldheart wrote:
Pretty good thread right until the EvE player decided to get his two cents in, Hey piotr, do us all a favour, dont bother next time.
Really this is just something that arose from an idle discussion in the lobby and got a lot of interest, its now just here for general discussion amongst a wider audience.
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First of all I don’t play Eve so that’s another dumb comment from you even if I was playing coco bamboo on moon I’ve been here long enough to comment what I want and to make judgments Secondly in 2 years of playing darkspace id flame only 2 threads .First would be Gothugs one describing unfairness of using skills against other players .Second ,guess what its yours but i wont bother to even comment it .Ds almost lost all good players its sad seeing more and more players such like your influencing community .Its really a pity I logged in to forums i wanted to remember the old guys and atmosphere not what’s happening now.
Ps: Do yourself a favor and don’t open your mouth.
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[ This Message was edited by: Piotr-San on 2004-05-07 08:59 ]
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Autolycus
Cadet
Joined: April 10, 2004
Posts: 3
| Posted: 2004-05-07 09:01
A disturbing trend that I'm noticing here is that so many people have the opinion that the game is not fun unless you are at a high rank and in a very powerful ship.
What a strange point of view!
Who cares what rank you are? If you spent all your time between Midshipman and Admiral NOT having fun, what the heck were you doing online?
I thought the fun was simply in the playing of the game. All the time spent in a frigate or destroyer flying around at top speed amongst the giants - trying desperately to stay alive.
I thought the fun was interacting with friends, fleetmates, and enemies. Building teams, executing plans, and accomplishing goals.
Sure I, too, enjoy being able to "level up" and achieve higher ranks. I enjoy having more and better ships available as I climb the ladder.
But the climb is just as fun as the position. Getting knocked all the way back down to Midshipman only means that I get to have that fun all over agan!
If some kind of 'big bang' prestige reset does come along; see it as an opportunity to forge your path anew, not an excuse to whine about past glory. And if your rank is so important that its loss would make you quit playing - then good riddance.
My 2 cents.
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Pope
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 11, 2002
Posts: 2449
From: World of tomorrow
| Posted: 2004-05-07 09:10
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On 2004-05-07 09:01, Autolycus wrote:
If some kind of 'big bang' prestige reset does come along; see it as an opportunity to forge your path anew, not an excuse to whine about past glory. And if your rank is so important that its loss would make you quit playing - then good riddance.
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Amen to that.
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Epsilon
Cadet
Joined: November 03, 2003
Posts: 7
From: In the United States of America
| Posted: 2004-05-07 09:14
Be careful, this system would
1) Allow a noob to just orbit a planet in MV Deep within there sides territory and leave the game running overnight (i think people have said this before)
2) Bring a TOTAL DOWNFALL of skill, which is what rank should be about.
3)Severly lower commitment to the game
4)I think it would kill the ship diversity. I.E people might not want to be a supp ship or scout anymore.
5)Overall i think it would damage our already damaged Member Number.
Edit:If profile wipes come along there will be a MASSIVE Decline in members, some people literally have spent years building there rank, and yes anarchy will erupot and DS will likely fall.
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[ This Message was edited by: Epsilon on 2004-05-07 09:17 ]
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Creeping Shadow
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 22, 2003
Posts: 261
| Posted: 2004-05-07 09:21
oke you heard my view already in the lobby now i'll explain in full as u might precieve may be there is maybe there is not prob with the prestiege system but what u are proposing is worst then the current system .. if u r planing to put rank according to time in ds or time played ... then you should consider what value we will have for doing it all right? i mean if u will be a GA in 2 year .. then i can just crash 1000000 ships and i will still be promoted.. may be i dun't quite understand it .. anyway wiping out prestiege is somthing that i'm quite against think about it for ppl like me and many others who work so hard to earn what we have ...all that for nothing? btw if u think bringing everyone down to the same level is not the solution to promote team work either those who wanna be solo heros will still be the same... and putting this time promotion will come up worst for the new commer because now they woun't be abale to catch up with the vets no metter how hard they work at least current system the harder you work the higher rank you will be ... and so what if ppl just sit and repair and gain prestiege if they wanna be just borning that'z their money they r wasting .. wel i'm tired juz came back from work and i got majour headache so i'll leave it at that ..
I know i'm bad in english .. so dun't bother moking about it
ruff
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Epsilon
Cadet
Joined: November 03, 2003
Posts: 7
From: In the United States of America
| Posted: 2004-05-07 09:27
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putting this time promotion will come up worst for the new commer because now they woun't be abale to catch up with the vets
ruff
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Yeah, wouldnt it suck if all you could get was a frigate and everyone else had a dread jsut cause they were here a year before you? yeah, you would feel inferior.
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