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Prestige system problems (Long) |
Forseth (Ret)
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 01, 2003
Posts: 828
From: Forseth
|  Posted: 2004-05-07 10:08
not a bad idea but i do have a few problems with it. tart makes a good point where you wouldnt need to play to get the highest rank in the game. i would be approaching FA right now. June 1st i would get it. but i am also close to gettin it pres wise as well. so i believe taht it takes you almost a year if not a little less to achive FA in the first place. this will be my first time to get it as well. i know that a few players can get FA easily their 3rd time around but i think thats one of the great parts of this game. the Replay Value. once I hit GA im gonna stay GA for a good 3 or 4 months, then im gonna start over and try to make a record time for myself in how long it takes to get GA. so what im tryin to say is if you put in a Time rank system like that then you totally kill the replay value of the game. period. i think maybe a thing like rookie, private, sargent, Veteran type system might work but dont Exchange the pres system for a time rank system. its a good idea but it just needs to be thought out first 
-Ryan
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Sc0tTn
Cadet
Joined: February 26, 2004
Posts: 206
From: Mackay Queensland
| Posted: 2004-05-08 05:28
I just think that it's too easy to earn the lower ranks. I made 1st rear in 4 weeks. I played in pretty religiously though. I think that the range between ranks should be greater and there should be more ranks.
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Koda
Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: August 29, 2002
Posts: 1384
| Posted: 2004-05-08 10:34
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On 2004-05-06 16:39, Hirad Coldheart wrote:
Had a rather interesting discussion with Gideon, AdmBito, Vinco, Sonlox and some other people in the lobby last night.
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Foo dont ask bito important questions!
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1/ The current system is too 'Top Rank Heavy'
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Now, if im not mistakken this is because of the Buy 1 get 1 Free sale at the Dollar general. Or was it because the of the Atkins Diet reducing the # of StarWars Nerds Weight Levels so now they can leave there rooms and experence the sunlight again?
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2/ Newer players were often left behind in the learning curve due to not having many peers to learn with/from, this is due to prestige being too easy to gain and rank advances being exceedingly rapid (Especially for the lower ranks).
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The learning curve isnt the problem. The problem is that DS has fallen even more behind the rest of the ponies. To put things bluntly, I dont see alot of people playing DarkSpace.
@Bansh, the problem with the Rank System is that Being a Fleet Admiral or a GRand Admiral doesnt really mean you have a Fleet of people by you all the time. They might as well call you Capt Crunch or Froot loops, cus all youve earned is a nifty name.
[my2cents]
prestige and credits should be used for the same purposes, In addition to the "top hvy rank" positions being decided withen respective fleets.
[/my2cents]
-CharAznable
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Lith Ragond
Cadet
Galactic Navy
Joined: November 25, 2001
Posts: 1854
| Posted: 2004-05-08 13:21
Quote:
| It would also be a good idea if the ranking was within faction. This would have the bonus of encouraging people to join the numerically weaker faction because this would likely acheive a higher rank at any given prestige value. |
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well, it looks like someone straight out solved the "we have fewer players in our faction" whining that happens so much. GJ!
i'd like to add my own little suggestion to this thread, and mirror what others have said.
a time subscribed rank system is far too faulty and simplistic. as people have mentioned it makes being on the lower rung way too boring.
time subbed+badge reqs doesnt make sense either, cause any player could easily grab all the badges before the "subbed time" req would be met.
what DOES make the most sense is the "time played+badge req" type of rank system. wherein we will need a new badge system also. i'll outline my own lil vision of this:
Note: for ranking system without the GA (aka old) here is a link: http://darkspace.sylea.org/staffdir/The_Ranks.htm
For Badge reqs go here:
http://darkspace.sylea.org/staffdir/badges.htm
(WARNING: all numbers are strictly representational to give the reader a better understanding; these numbers in no way should be taken literally! Same with the badges)
But I think we'd also need to revamp the badge system. Something like this: (tranny stay the same up to gold)
Bronze - still 50 points
Copper - 250
Silver - 500
Gold - 1000
Platinum - 2000 Tranny - 300
Diamond - 4000 Tranny - 800
Ensign: 3 hours of play + Bronze Navigator + Bronze Support
2nd Lt.: 6 hours of play + Bronze Transport + Brone er
1st Lt.: 10 hours + Bronze Star
Lt. Commander: 14 hourse + Copper Nav + Copper Support
(i'm gonna skip the mid ranges and address the "top heavy" ranking we have.)
Admiral - 220 hours (believe me that's LESS than the average time your barely admiral/almost admiral has played, so you'd actually get their FASTER time wise) + Platinum Engy + Platinum Combat + Platinum Tranny
FA - 440 hours + Platinum Star
GA - 950 hours + Diamond Star
that way we can have an even spread of badge reqs up to GA (requiring Diamond star). and if you go through some of the GAs you'll notice a good number of them wouldnt be there. same with FAs and admirals. they'd still have their same pres, just not their ranks. of course, we can also mess with ships reqs, and hopefully have MORE ships before a system like this would go in place. otherwise, i kinda like this system.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2004-05-08 14:06
Dont like the new badges idea. The problem is with the pres, not the badges. Leave them be.
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AdmBito
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: October 04, 2002
Posts: 1249
From: Its hard out here for a pimp
| Posted: 2004-05-08 14:28
I, too, think that the badges should be spaced out a bit more. Repair badges are ridulously easy to get, and construction now is pretty easy too. The rest just come naturally. The system the fellow above me had (sorry he isn't quoted) is pretty good except for the planets captured (Transport) badges.
I think 800 tranny points is a bit too high for diamond; currently, there are only 80 players with 800 or more tranny points, and quite a few of those dont even play. Scaling that down, combined with the other changes to the badges, and adding more badge requirments to each indivual ship would be a nice way to diversify, at least temporarily.
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Puppies gotta die, too.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2004-05-08 16:10
I worked hard for my badges, and I dont want anyone taking them away......
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Lith Ragond
Cadet
Galactic Navy
Joined: November 25, 2001
Posts: 1854
| Posted: 2004-05-08 18:04
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| I think 800 tranny points is a bit too high for diamond; currently, there are only 80 players with 800 or more tranny points, and quite a few of those dont even play. Scaling that down, combined with the other changes to the badges, and adding more badge requirments to each indivual ship would be a nice way to diversify, at least temporarily. |
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thats the point, GA should require that much work (only 50 GAs)
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AdmBito
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: October 04, 2002
Posts: 1249
From: Its hard out here for a pimp
| Posted: 2004-05-08 18:15
Those 80 players that gathered those 800 points were the ones who played religiously/every single night when the MV was empty and capping planets was a simple task of a station and tranny, or 3 trannies. Now, with a re-populated MV, a player is lucky to get a planet or two a night if they are fleeted up. Also, with grouping gone, those numbers at the top of the list may be a bit inflated.
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Puppies gotta die, too.
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Antdizzle
Joined: February 07, 2003
Posts: 860
| Posted: 2004-05-08 18:17
bito get rid of that sig anyway i agree with the badge idea however 800 is to much i only have 400 so make it like....600
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Feralwulf
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 24, 2004
Posts: 1729
From: sitting somewhere drinking beer
| Posted: 2004-05-08 19:30
Ok I tried to read all of the previous posts, but that's a lot of reading and I'd rather be playing so forgive me if I say something that has already been said............100 times.
Has anyone come up with the idea of a stepped system using Prestige+Time+ badges?
Ex: the Prestige value of Ships damaged or Repaired increases with Time played.
Have it done so that someone would have to have played say maybe 6 months in order for their Prestige values to be comparable to todays system. For the 1st 3 months of playing time prestige gained for whatever stat (Ships damaged, repaired, constructions, planet caps etc.) would be 1/3 of todays value, at 3 months to 6 months it would be 2/3, and after 6 months it would be at the current values.
Also The prestige lost could be worked so that in the 1st 3 months Prestige lost would be greater for Deaths, planet Collisions, FF etc. and would decrease with time played so that after the 1st 6 months it would be at it's current value.
Certain Ranks would be dependent on the Star badges.
Captain = Bronze star+ Prestige
1st rear Admiral = Silver star + Prestige
Admiral = Gold Star + Prestige
And add another Star and set of badges (platinum for example) to gain the rank of Fleet Admiral.
2 weeks to gain the rank of ensign? No. If it had been that way when I used my 5 day free trial coupon, I would have been done after 5 days of Midshipman. As it is my 1st day of DS lasted aprox. 72 hours, and I was subscribed within the 1st 24.
I agree that The ranks are top heavy but a LONG period of time at a low rank I think might hurt rather than help.
Whatever happens lets just wait until I have enough Prestige and Time in to NOT lose my Rank of Admiral! 
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 rnrn
Don't mess with old dudes...age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill!
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Grimith
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: August 09, 2003
Posts: 836
From: Your local future farm.
| Posted: 2004-05-09 04:32
It’s that time of day, folks (well, actually, morning for me... but... whatever)... Yes, that’s right... After months of silence, I am back to make a very long statement! (I did not have sexual relati— no, that statement’s already been used...) Well... it probably isn’t going to be that long if I started typing it at about 4:30 A.M... but... that’s besides the point... ON TO THE ACTUAL MEANING OF THE POST!!!
I’ve read all of the posts on the forum... well... nearly all of them (doesn’t matter to explain)... and, I must say, I like the way the discussion has been heading in terms of a new idea to regulate rank. I’m not particularly peachy with the time-regulating thing that was currently suggested (mainly because that much of a space between Midshipman and Ensign seems... preposterous in this instant gratification world), but at least it’s a step in the right direction. I’m not quite so sure about how the thing needs to be revamped, though... so I’m going to contribute!
(You’ll have to forgive me, folks. When it’s dark outside, I lose a few marbles.)
I’ll have to agree with the update statements about the armed forces. Ranks should be partially based on time and effort. However, as I am pessimistic, I’ll also have to point out that there are generally exceptions to the rule. You know... some people being so skilled that they may be due for an early promotion... or some people being so exceptionally skilled that they’re held back because they’re needed more for certain things than others...... Okay, yeah, it’s politics, and the K’luth might not be that way, but... you gotta admit... it’s one of those things that just pops into your mind when you think about prestige and positioning and rank.
But, I digress.
Really, I have nothing much more to contribute than the fact that at least it’s good that people are being constructive and trying to think of ways to improve the game instead of being destructive. I mean... come on... which is better: 100 people complaining about losing their hard work should the important people decide that a prestige wipe is in order, or 1 person suggesting a new idea?
Granted, those numbers may be skewed... and I’m sure there are people that will oppose my stance. Yet, those same people might also be the people that don’t see the value in other rewards of gaining new ships... or something else to look forward to... or need incentives to enjoy playing. This game, last time I checked, was about the effort of a team. People working together in unison to both have fun and, to... well... have fun. When you need incentives to help people or to enjoy yourself in the game... then you shouldn’t be playing this game. You don’t belong here.
Or, maybe you do, and it’s I that don’t belong here.
Yet, once again, I digress. My apologies. I was supposed to be talking about the prestige system.
Everything connects in some form or fashion... the good and the bad about these ‘idea’ posts. I’m not going to point everything out, though... that would eliminate the thesis of this post. Instead, I’ll just say that I’m open for anything that’s done because I want the game to be better. And, if the change actually makes the game worse in my eyes, I think I’ll live. Eventually, the only way will be able to go up.
I feel that the end justifies the means.
(((Ugh... way too much optimism in that. Can only come from being tired. I’ll probably edit this post as soon as I get more sense into me, but it’s the general idea... I mean, I didn’t really suggest much of anything, but I want to try to encourage the people that are thinking like this to continue to think like this because, frankly, it’s the best thing to do. I also tried to shoot down some people that complained... or something... kinda... bah... whatever. I’m stopping my brain right now.)))
OH!!! Before I forget (yeah, it sprung on THAT quickly), I want to make my own suggestion: Ranks could also be awarded by... special deeds. For example, the man (or woman... but... my gender assumption comes from what they teach me in English class. Sorry.) that risks his prestige standing to face off against the enemy when no ally is in sight deserves something. He might lose in actual points, but he deserves something more than a cookie (an idea might be a special drawing of a cookie courtesy of the Macktastic Jackswift!).
I’m sure other special commendation things could be invented... but that was the one that came to my mind. I’m not quite sure how that could be worked out... but... hey... the people that are thinking about stuff like this will surely be able to come up with something.
...Now, for serious this time, my brain is going poof. Catch you people later.
[ This Message was edited by: Grimith {The Little Tart Man} on 2004-05-09 04:35 ]
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2004-05-09 12:52
Quote:
| Feralwulf:
For the 1st 3 months of playing time prestige gained for whatever stat (Ships damaged, repaired, constructions, planet caps etc.) would be 1/3 of todays value, at 3 months to 6 months it would be 2/3, and after 6 months it would be at the current values. |
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I think it should be the opposite. Prestige gain is fastest when you're low, and then slows as you go up the ranks. Granted, this effect is already partially existant due to the exponential increase in prestige requirements for ranking up, but it seems backwards to force slow rank advancement on the low ranks to me.
This supposedly existed at one point, but a way that seems intelligent to me would be to scale prestige gain based upon the relative rank or points of your enemy. Basically, if you're an Admiral and you just destroyed the engineering ship of a 1st Lieutenant, you'd only gain a fraction of the prestige you would have gained if that engineer was a Grand Admiral. Midshipmen blowing up midshipman would gain decent prestige, but a midshipman getting damage on a dread of a Fleet Admiral would gain 3x the Ships Damaged prestige for that.
That seems like a nice way to scale things. It would also take care of the prestige gain rate issue I talked about in the first paragraph - prestige gain would by default be highest when you're low ranked, since everything you do would tend to be against higher players, and thus gain you more points. High rankers would have trouble getting the higher-ranked-player bonuses, and thus their advancement rate would be slowed.
This doesn't really address anything other than PvP combat, but that's a large component these days. You could even do bombing points vs. defense bases.. other categories, I don't know. If this option is favored, we can work that out later.
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| Grimith {The Little Tart Man}
Ranks should be partially based on time and effort. However, as I am pessimistic, I’ll also have to point out that there are generally exceptions to the rule. You know... some people being so skilled that they may be due for an early promotion... or some people being so exceptionally skilled that they’re held back because they’re needed more for certain things than others...... |
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This is exactly what I proposed in my earlier post. You can gain promotions automatically after a certain amount of time (provided you have a certain ratio of Age to Time Played, to ensure that people that don't play don't get promoted), or after a certain point level, but there would also be some sort of a council to promote earlier, or to delay things a bit if they find it necessary. This would mean you will eventually get promoted even if you're hated and play like a blind dyslexic Alzheimer's-afflicted 97 year old, but if you're a Gaming God and everyone loves you, you could climb the ranks very quickly. There would be some minimum times at each rank required, but theoretically you could make it very small.
Coupled with more advanced ships, specialized versions of some, and a more robust and demanding badge system (as well as more rewarding, for both generalists and highly specialized players), I think this would provide a better prestige system.
Further suggestions/criticisms/refinements?
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* [S.W]AdmBito @55321 Sent \"I dunno; the French had a few missteps. But they're on the right track, one headbutt at a time.\"
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2004-05-09 13:11
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On 2004-05-07 01:47, TAZ wrote:
My only concearn with having an executive council for deciding promotions past a certain rank though is the good old boy network!!
I noticed that you mentioned a way to keep people from getting promoted out of turn due to freindship, but how about a way for those who might be getting held back because they arent well liked by someone with a lot a influence on the council??
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Well, theoretically, the council is balanced enough to avoid things like that..
My safeguards:
Minimum and maximum times in a rank, to prevent people from being promoted to Grand Admiral in a week because they have a friend on the Council, or to make it impossible for a spiteful member to hold them at Commander for 3 months.
A balanced makeup of the council, provided by elections, and renewed on occaision. If someone is being mean consistiently, vote them out.
Related to that, public voting records for promotions.
And besides, this is a team game, and there is certainly an amount of social interaction required. If you can't get along socially, you won't get too far in the game. You won't be completely hindered, but there is something to be said for making it more like life - politics are involved in work promotions, after all. Even if you're the hardest working person in the world - or the best pilot - if you're always pissing people off, how far are you really going to get? This just demonstrates that life reality.
So, be a decent pilot and be nice to people, and you'll do fine. At least in theory.
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| Politics, they always add a new level to something otherwise simple!! |
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Indeed, but its just more added depth - and human-created depth, which I think is the best kind!
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On 2004-05-07 02:54, BackSlash (Missing Rachel) wrote:
FAR to high, way way to high, I like my AD rank as I worked hard to get it. The last thing we want is to make it hard to get those gold badges etc. Doing something that takes away a ship I can pilot right now, wouldnt make me a happy bunny, and im pretty sure other people wouldnt like it either.
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Yes, my example was high, but I just picked an arbitrary number. Theoretically, there would be nearly-infinite rewards as you go up the prestige ladder. People may not have 50,000 supply points now, but when you manage it, you're 50k Supply Badge (may not be a badge really, but that level of accomplishment) gets you a 10% speed boost on your 4 bayed supply ship, for example. Bonuses like that.
I do think, though, that badges should be tweaked, and possibly raised. Or, leave them like they are, and change the requirements for ships. This would, of course, go hand-in-hand with changes to ships themselves, so its not just like you're getting a ship taken away: there's now a new, better ship to be attained, just ahead of your current stats.
Also, some people might not like it, but I think a lot would stick around, albeit with some grumbling. If, however, any ships made more difficult to reach were also improved somehow, I think this would lessen the discontent. Also, most players who genuinely want to improve the game, or play the best game they can would support changes like that, since the goal is the betterment of the game. I'm not saying everyone should blindly approve of all changes, but most of the work we do is public anyway, and if you don't like what's happening, you can post or chat with the Devs to attempt to change things... and if things don't work out for you, chalk it up to a "dynamic" game, and live with it. Like I said, its just one more thing to work toward.
But ideally, things would stay relatively close to how they currently are, with new ships being introduced with higher, more specific requirements.
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On 2004-05-07 06:16, Barth3zzz wrote:
As already pointed out; Youd have to sit around and do nothing for 2 weeks just to reach Ensign.
If you want to make it time based then make it so people reach commander after a week. Or rather after a certain amount of time played.
That way they can actually get usefull ships and be of any use to the rest of us.
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Again, though you seemed not to be replying to me, something where players determine the promotions would alleviate some of the problems with your complaint. You wouldn't have to sit around and wait 2 weeks to be promoted. First off, my requirements would be low - you only need an hour or two to get the hang of the place, and then you could gain your promotion.
The game could even give you a "Battlefield Commission," and promote you immediately after a certain time and prestige threshold, and then send a message to the council.. and once they approve the promotion, it would be official and permanent. That way you wouldn't have to wait on others to get promoted, but without their blessing, your promotion wouldn't last indefinitely.
Just as you pointed out, an exclusively time based system is a bad idea. It needs to be tied in with other things - in my suggestion, it also considers performance/prestige, as well as ability to work together: the more social team-oriented aspects, since its other players who officiate the promotions.
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Id rather see the rank system somewhat dynamic, like only the top 3% of the subbed player base can be a FA. The top 4-10% can be Admiral.
Youd then actually have to compete with other players to stay maintain your rank.
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I don't like limiting the number of people at each rank. There might be some subtle use of that in real life, to avoid a top heavy rank structure, but its not explicit. Likewise, I wouldn't want to see it hard-coded. If there were an executive council like I suggested, it might work out to be somewhat unofficially limited, but I don't like it hardcoded. That way, you can't really gain a higher rank if other people just as good as you got there first. There's no advancement. Plus, I tend to dislike hard-coded rules that could be handled by humans just as well.
Ok, that's enough typing today. I think I've outlined my system well enough, as well as addressed some concerns mentioned by others.
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* [S.W]AdmBito @55321 Sent \"I dunno; the French had a few missteps. But they're on the right track, one headbutt at a time.\"
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2004-05-14 14:53
sweet! killed another one..
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* [S.W]AdmBito @55321 Sent \"I dunno; the French had a few missteps. But they're on the right track, one headbutt at a time.\"
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