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Lack of moons around Saturn and other planets in Sol? |
Peachy
1st Rear Admiral
Evil Empires Inc.
Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 48
|  Posted: 2005-01-05 21:41
Drajka said an accurate sol would be good as a scenario server not in the MV which as you've all pointed out would give uggies resources by the bucket.
I think theres merit in an accurate sol scenario. I would sit in the kuiper belt and tractor comets into earth.
Also give us Sedna , it would serve as a nice kluth refuelling depot.
Or for the conspirators - planet x.
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philll
Admiral
Joined: September 13, 2003
Posts: 268
| Posted: 2005-01-06 03:29
well if any of u remember Jupiter Fleet u should knoq that the made all of the 30 moons or so of jupiter into deathplanets(15 def)
now if on ship jumped in think what would happen if those def were lvl 3 fighter bases.
there would not be the game would crash
not that this isnt a bad idea but it wouldnt work with dark space how it is now
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Reason
Cadet
Joined: April 14, 2002
Posts: 156
| Posted: 2005-01-06 06:56
First off, I do not speak for or represent Darkspace or Palestar in any way, shape or form.
Having said that, Sol was already revamped once since its original form here in Darkspace. At least 15 more objects (Moons/Planets/etc) were added into the revamped Sol system when the first phase of the "Metaverse Concept" was put into place, thanks to Demorian. He also went through and tried to make it more "accurate" to the best of the Editor's capabilties. There were some additional plans for this system and the rest of the Metaverse in future phases, however, I cannot comment further. I simply do not know the status nor should I in the future due to my departure. Such questions/comments should be directed to Palestar.
- |2eason -
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Drajka (The λ Snark)
Cadet
Joined: December 01, 2004
Posts: 21
| Posted: 2005-01-06 08:48
Wow @.@ Woot! This topic is "hot" 
Well, yes, you all make very good points, and to those that support me - thx  .
As was said above, I suggest this for a scenario server, not for the Metaverse. It is true that if there were level 15 defense on all those moons, there would be enormous lag and such, but say for instance, that some of the moons, such as "Pan", would have less than 32 spaces for building, perhaps just 16, or 12? Seeing as they are notably smaller.
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On 2005-01-05 16:01, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
black hole would just be like a wormhole that was black. With different graphics....Wouldnt lag atall, the tons of moons wouldnt either, its what comes OUT of those moons that could lag the zone server.
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Right. Now I also realize that having 32 construction areas is probably hard-coded in to the game, so I hesitate to push the 16, or 12 space idea; however it does seem to be legitimate.
Thanks Peachy, you rock . Even though yer a bug.
If some of you are worried about the apparent "over-proximity" of the moons that would, hypothetically be added, then why don't we just scale the map up? If we were to make things half way accurate with the spacings of planetary bodies, it wouldn't be a problem. There are already huge mistakes in the "accuracy" of the planetary distances; such that Pluto should be at LEAST 5 times farther away from the nearest planet than it is now. Now I realize, that would be like a 5 minute jump from one side of the system to the other, with AMJ; and I do not suggest we 'put Pluto in it's place'.
And further, what about the Asteroid belt? I know what the first thoughts about this are: "OMFG LAG" And you're probably right, for I really have little grasp on the polygon count, cpu attention, and server tracking of the asteroids, though it seems strange that it was effectivly ignored in the construction of Sol.
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On 2005-01-05 19:10, RedXIII wrote:
If you actually looked into said research. Most of Saturn, Jupiter, Uranus and Neptune's moons are nothing more than asteroids that were captured in their orbit.
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True, but not all of them, perhaps the miniature ones, but ones such as Titan, have an atmosphere. Asteroids don't have an atmosphere, and there more than just asteroids revolving around Saturn.
Also, on another point, it is believed that the Moon/Luna is really a piece of the earth, broken off by some natural catastrophe long ago, and the place where the moon used to be, is now the Pacific Ocean. And yes, I realize that the pacific ocean dosen't have a sphere missing from it. Things will round over time from meteorites... blah blah blah space junk, and the like.
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On 2005-01-05 21:41, Peachy wrote:
Drajka said an accurate sol would be good as a scenario server not in the MV which as you've all pointed out would give uggies resources by the bucket.
I think theres merit in an accurate sol scenario. I would sit in the kuiper belt and tractor comets into earth.
Also give us Sedna , it would serve as a nice kluth refuelling depot.
Or for the conspirators - planet x.
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 And why not? He makes a good point.
Keep your opinions coming in. :>
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Doomclown
Cadet
Joined: January 01, 2005
Posts: 1
| Posted: 2005-01-06 22:32
IMO, a few of the major moons and a large asteroid belt is sufficient to replicate the "feel" of Saturn within the limits of gameplay.
OTOH, I used to be a big fan of Titan's Empire, and I think it would be cool to have a similar scenario in Darkspace (cast the K'luth as the Titans, stick one of the human factions on Earth, and the other wherever makes gameplay sense).
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philll
Admiral
Joined: September 13, 2003
Posts: 268
| Posted: 2005-01-07 02:49
i didnt mean lvl 15 defenses think how many missles that would be if each base launched 15 missles at once
i meant that the planets had15 def bases or maybe some 20 if u invest time but maybe u could make the planets unhabitable in a way where u cant build on it due to volcanic actvity
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Drajka (The λ Snark)
Cadet
Joined: December 01, 2004
Posts: 21
| Posted: 2005-01-07 06:14
True, true.
LETS NOT LET THIS TOPIC DIE!
These statements are valid.
Maybe I'm the only one that wants to have something additional in DS besides the new patch coming out..
No one commented on having less than 32 build spaces, is that hard coded into the game?
And what about being able to mine rings around planets? There are huge amounts of minerals there, read about it.
Blather. Keep the posts coming. This is fun talking about it.
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Lord DowneyBUM (UK)
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 13, 2003
Posts: 437
From: London England
| Posted: 2005-01-07 06:42
Need to be carefule about where you decide to draw the line between what u want and whats capable.
Wouldnt want Dreads or support stations being wiped out by Haileys Comet now, would we.
Or would we??
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Drajka (The λ Snark)
Cadet
Joined: December 01, 2004
Posts: 21
| Posted: 2005-01-07 10:36
Testing, I gotta nuu sig.. See if it works
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-01-07 11:09
Your sig, is too big Drajka
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-01-08 06:42
Still, it IS True that most of them ARE mere asteroids captured in orbit. Also, even if there was enough larger ones, the age-old Inequality, as Gideon said.
"Gameplay > Realism"
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-01-08 13:59
I think a greater solution to this problem is already evident: everythings too small in size.
Really.
Some things in DS just dont seem to add up, like how a station can be larger than a small moon and how when a EAD slams into a planet at 3000gu/sec doesnt so much as scratch the surface.
If we were to make everything in DS accurate to real life then alot of things would be drastically changed...
Planets would be at leas 3x Larger than they currently already are, and the scale of the entire metaverse would be at least tenfold to represent accurate gameplay. The reasons these arent done are for a fe main reasons. One, more size means more bandwith, making it possible to increase the lag (more of an object(s) in a set screen would also reduce frame-rates for low-end video cards). This also means that there is more distance to travel, and who really wants the EvE repeat of waiting an hour to get across a system?
DS is more relative to arcade style instead of simulator or else stratgy or RPG, its more a combination of them in moderation. We have a space simulator without the technical, a strategy game with only yourself to command, and a RPG where the only thing you gain are ships, all combined into one, which is good thing isnt it?
The point is the more realistic the game is the less fun it is likely to be, after all, while navigating on a 3D plane rather than a 2D one would be more realistic, it would be a pain to do so while in combat (and confusing), which is primary reason things are done on a 2D plane yet in a 3D world.
Yet there are many space anomalies that we have yet to see yet would definantly up the gameplay level...planets who actually show surface dammage...and planets you can render uninhabiable and planets you can terraform if they meet the requirements to do so...orbital mines for Gas Giants and the gravity of planets really do have an effect on everything...
And using Asteroids to slingshot them at planets hundreds of GU away.
Probably what most people really want is to see a real-time evolvation of static objects....suns that go nova...planets that decay...or improve...and best of all...landing on planets...
So many ideas...yet they all must wait the test of time...otherwise it won't make an A+ in it.
-Ent
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Drajka (The λ Snark)
Cadet
Joined: December 01, 2004
Posts: 21
| Posted: 2005-01-11 11:39
Ahh, yes, you make some very good points, and congrats on making a post longer than mine .
Yes, I agree with your argument on sizes. I agree that the sizes shouldn't be changed to be accurate... Hell, I understand that. When you say stations are slightly larger than a small moon? HA! Dreads are bigger than some of those moons =/
It is true that the jump time would be substantial, and I'm not suggesting that we indeed scale up the entire MV by ten times, or by any exponential value.
In light of these newly produced arguments and suggestions, I have an additonal suggestion.
What about jump drives?
Could there be a third type of jump drive used for extremly long jumps? Or perhaps have a mode on the existing ones that would dictate things such as "If distance is greater than 500000, then $jumpfuelusage = $jumpfuelusage x 3.0 // $jumpspeed = $jumpspeed + 2000 "GU p/s""
^ Distorted "Half Code, half english" way of putting it..
Or.. In lamens terms.. If there is a jump per say.. 500,000 gu away, the jump drive could use three times the fuel, but travel at an additional 2000 GU per second, for long, exo-system jumps.
Also, the point of having static objects in the game become dynamic, is EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm trying to push. I think things should be a little more exciting than just "fighting K'luth".
I know the point of a MMORPG is to involve as much PvP action as possible, but why not make something worthwhile to do even if there are few people on?
I think having a star turn into a supernova, a various type of dwarf, red giant.. ect would be a FANTASTIC addition.
Adding some unpredictability... As in "k... well... Sol.. Sueve... Baranad's Star... They're safe.. We'll just camp in the outskirts of our captured territory because.... Nothings gonna happen back there."
(Before any of you mention it, I KNOW K'luth nearly completly took Alpha Centuri A, Sueve, and Sol. That will probably never happen again anyway. )
Anyway, what if there was an accident at a well-developed planet?
These could be added to the current conditions, such as political unrest ... Smugglers... Plague...
What about a faulty node in a variance generator that causes it to explode... Meaning that someone will have to visit a system practicly forgotten by time.
Or, what if it was a globally (universally..ly..ly?) broadcasted event -- then other factions could head toward that planet while it's weakened, which would bring many players from all 3 factions to that spot to defend, attack, salvage, bomb -- bringing more action!
Wow.. This has gotten pretty long, and my hands are tired. I'll shut up now and wait for your guys' responses.
Oh yes, and since no one seems to even have any... Knowledge... Of something I said earlier.. I'll take the liberty to write it in caps and such.
[u]IS HAVING 32 BUILD SLOTS HARD CODED INTO THE GAME? OR COULD IT BE CHANGED FOR FUTURE ADDITIONS SUCH AS SMALLER MOONS WITH LESS BUILD SPACE?[/u] Thanks
Drajka
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Tellaris
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 830
From: Land of Chocolate
| Posted: 2005-01-11 18:09
I have made a sol sized map, with everything in it. All known asteroids at time of make were planets. Where has it gone? Lost in reformat.
THIS IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO DO WITH THE WAY THE EDITOR WORKS! (currently)
The player editor right now is total crap. I did this with an OLDER version. To do it accurately with the current one is frusterating, long, boring, and near impossible. It was difficult enough just to place the over 100+ planets, let alone all the asteroids! I don't know the density, but to make the asteroids even VISIBLE IN A 5 HOUR GAME with ENDLESS flying around their known path was almost impossible, even with like 50 "nouns" representing each asteorid group (5-10 I believe) Let alone setting the orbits for these asteroids, which is actually quite difficult, particularly if the sun is out of range... It can actually be quite tricky to set orbit paths... And if you compress it any, it simply becomes way too cluttered.
Even with the belt between Mars and Jupiter requires a more then rediculous amount of asteoird nouns. The problem back then? Such a map created extreme lag, most peoples ping was within the 200+ range, when it is normally around 90-100 from them to me.
If you want to know WHY its near impossible with the current editor, its from a number of things, which I feel to list for anyone who decides to try this...
1. Very nemourous bugs. The fact that Faustus uses a programmer editor means he dosn't care about ours. As well, Palestar plans on moving AWAY from player servers, just to create one big universe (think EvE). Thus editors and player servers are quite low priority. Some of these bugs are so bad that they ruin the whole map, and require you to start over. A lot of them I have not been able to get around, and unfortunately, I've only been able to create small systems.
2. Complexity. There is just so much to deal with that its just incredibly difficult to get it to RUN correctly, let alone play right. Setting factions can be especially difficult, and at least 85% of every problem I've encountered is with this one little part.
3. The server is a pain in the butt to run correctly. Takes much effort to get it to run, and its easy to mess up if you don't know what you're doing.
4. The way asteriods are setup now, you have to set the orbit path for each and every little asteroid. There is no other way I know of. Same with speeds.
5. Resources are no longer default. If you want a planet to start with any minerals on it at all, you have to edit each one individually. Quite time consuming. This is added on to the fact you do have to set the mineral types available. This makes it easier to specify what you want on the planet, but it takes longer to do.
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Tellaris
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 830
From: Land of Chocolate
| Posted: 2005-01-11 18:25
The one I put together did not suffer the Nicea syndrome. I wanted to avoid that, thus all planets where a minimum of 1000 gu away from eachother, most moons where up to 1500-3000 to even 5000 gu away from eachother... This prevented extreme cluttering, which would otherwise result in what is now known as the Nicea system.
In an effort to promote realism, I made the Gas Giants have a larger distance from eachother then the 4 inner planets, thus much space had to be given. From this point on, beyond Saturn I had to use the dropdown orbit list to set the orbit path to Sol (the sun) Thus doing this with every single asteroid= not fun. Particularly if you do it 50 times... Setting orbits for moons was no problem however.
Nicea is a good example of what I like to call "poor planning" Setups like that just make the game suck. I also call it something else, but I'm not looking to insult anyone here.
I am personally pretty strict with my map making, they have to pass my own little rules, and as such I end up testing it throughly. Unfortunately, I have not bothered to make any more, as the big glareing problem of numerous editor bugs stand in my way, and I'm not gonna put up with it. Until it gets fixed, no editoring for me.
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