| Author |
The Art of War |
BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
|  Posted: 2005-03-26 15:39
I know Banshee, both as a good friend, and a real life bud. He is without a doubt, one of the (if not the) best AC pilots in game, and best ICC strategists. I dont know anyone who knows more tactics or can think up more plans and exicute them with more finesee than him. To an exctent, yes big ships do win the game, but an experienced cruiser flyer has just as much chance to kill a dread than he does in a dread. If you have both skill and the big ship, then good for you.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2005-03-26 15:41 ]
_________________
|
Captain_Savage
Cadet
Joined: September 30, 2003
Posts: 144
| Posted: 2005-03-26 16:43
i don't dispute that. i've seen him in action. and if there is anyone i want on my side, it's him.
however, i'm speaking from experience. and am just as much of a strategist as he is. i have studied warfare, and i still do. i have played all manner of strategy games, i have played first person shooters, flight sims, and regularlyparticipate in paintball games(as in the real life, crawl through the bush, avoid the PAV, scenario games.) i can say with all honesty, that the principles taught in the book can bee applied to them all, and with great success.
it doesn't matter how you get the book, buy it, rent it, borrow it, read it on the internet, whatever. just read it. it teaches the fundamentals, and does so better than many others. true there are books that teach more advanced concepts, but you can't learn those without first securing the basics.
and many of said basics are unknown to may people who play this game.
the whole Metaverse can be summed up like so;
the K'luth invade UGTO territory, and beat them
the UGTO attack remote system to secure their position
the K'luth attack the ICC
a handful of the few ICC players online try to secure their territory, and after small initial victories, eventually fail
the other ICC players online scurry around and eventually get around to fighting after the K'luth take over several systems
the ICC ships, rather than fighting as a group, decide to attack the K'luth fleet one at a time. like those ninjas in the kung fu movies who just stand around the hero while their buddies break off from the group and get beaten one or two at a time.
K'luth win the MV, log off, and leave the UGTO and ICC to reclaim their worlds.
next day K'luth players log on, cycle begins anew.
fact is, the ICC are always going to be fighting a losing battle. not because the K'luth are so powerful, but because they don't fight propperly. it seems every time i logg on the K'luth or UGTO are rampaging across the Metaverse while the five or six ICC players fimble around nowhere near the fighting. i'm not talking about transports an extractors here, i'm talking about people in frigates, destroyers, and larger ships, just sitting around, doing seemingly nothing.
let me tell you, most of my time playing this game has been spent on the bridge of a Sensor Scout. during that time i have holed harrier frigates, been the eyes of the fleet in the heat of battle, and on more than one occation drawn the ire of the entire K'luth fleet, who seemed to scramble over each other to claim my scalp. i never killed anything larger than a frigate, though i drew enough fire, and was such a nussance that many Dreadnoughts forgot all about the bigger, more powerful ships to swat me out of the sky, and only rarely did they succeed.
harrassment is a powerful weapon. and if combined with other secret weapons like supperior organization, combined arms, and mass deception, your force can become almost unstoppable.
_________________
|
BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-03-26 17:24
No offence, but I havnt seen you in game anywhere near as much as him, banshee has played this game SOLID since beta, not on and off, he is MUCH MUCH MUCH more of a strategist than you are, and just because you play other games, doesnt mean you are good in this one. DarkSpace is one a kind, you can be smart, you can have a little knowledge, it takes a special sort of person, experience and a team player to be a vet/strategist.
Every time I loged into a battle v ICC, banshee was there, and you ALWAYS had to watch out for him in Agents, because no doubt he'd be getting about 5-9 of them ready to pound you from behind. Now, you may be a good strategist, but he was a leader too, he could exicute it AND communicate with others to let them know what was going on.
There are others like him, but I havnt seen you in battle against ICC, and if I dont need to be watching you every other second, then your not a threat. Im sorry if this seems like im putting you down, im purely going off what i've seen, and what I know. I've flown with my friend in this game for a long time, and I just think you need further to go before you become a strategist on the same level. Work at it, and im sure you will progress. But sitting in a sensor scout and hitting a harrier frig doesnt mean your a good strategist im affriad, if you can pull of organisation and all these things AND be part of the battle, and do a whole bunch of other things, then you become a good strategist.
Also, forgive me, but a couple of days ago, I remember the kluth and UGTO getting their asses handed to them on a plate. ICC completly obliterated anything they came across.
ICC always lose?
utter...bullcrap.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2005-03-26 17:28 ]
_________________
|
Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-03-26 17:57
I have always found Tzun Tzu's teachings to be interesting, and they do have several points worth noting.
One lesson you should learn is that there are often those new, or of no proven worth, that have the abilities to think outside of the problem or new skills which can be utilised. Those who are naive enough to come up with the unexpected, the bold. To point out when needed those obvious things that, due to our familiarity, we often overlook.
The Art Of War isn't just about warfare, but in a way it can be used as a guide to life and dealing with its problems.
Now, as for debating about who is the best? You never know. Always expect the unexpected and NEVER underestimate your enemies or your friends. Just because you never see someone doesn't mean they don't have influence. It doesn't mean what they say won't have a major impact on someone or inspire them.
People may have played all the games. But to never have read or to have acknowedged the validity of the rules to them is a mistake.
_________________
It's gone now, no longer here...Yet still I see, and still I fear.rnrn
rnrn
DarkSpace Developer - Retired
|
Viral
Cadet
Joined: June 20, 2004
Posts: 3
| Posted: 2005-03-26 19:29
Anyone who hasn't read The Art of War doesn't deserve to lead. You will walk away changed after reading it.
_________________
|
Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2005-03-26 19:36
_________________
|
Captain_Savage
Cadet
Joined: September 30, 2003
Posts: 144
| Posted: 2005-03-26 20:33
Thank you, Moraxi. you said what i had been trying to say, but lacked the words for.
i don't belive i ever said i was better than anyone.
to restate, there are many sections of the book that can be applied to the game. Namely chapters 1-8. and the entire book van be applied to life.
i'm just going to go ahead and post a link to it.
so now you have no excuse not to.
_________________
|
Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-03-26 20:56
@Fattie - Thank you for putthing this post into perspective.
@The Rest - This becane a "I" and "Me" post alot sooner than it should have. Wasnt this about the book?
Now, there are many ways to put this, so Ill put it the honest way.
Every loss, is a win; every win is experiance.
Its really a known fact. One of the greatest teachers is losing. Everytime you lose, you get to see how you lost, and how to better improve on that.
Thus the next time you fight, your better off, but the enemy pulls another one under your feet. Loss 2.
Now being prepared for both times, you come up with a strategy, but still lose. HOWEVER, you only lost because of lag. (alright Joke). But the truth is, every time we lose, we learn something.
So should we start losing on pupose? No. (actually, thats just plain stupid).
Its the equivilent of constructive critizism, only on yourself.
Now about leadership. Leadership is the act of taking responsiblitys for everyones screw ups. ANY person can lead. After all, how can someone learn to lead without given the chance? There wont always be the same vets around to lead every time.
Banshee, for example, doesn't play as much as he used to. This means the leadership that once took alot from him (and yes they have, I used to think "Challenge!" every time I saw his ship.), is no longer there. Someone will fil lthat spot.
Leadership however, is more common sense than anything. IN 1.480 coordinated attacks meant EVERYTHING to a fight, now it doesn't though it helps. And of course...
We can't ever forget that experience is the ultimate teacher.
-Ent
_________________
|
Captain_Savage
Cadet
Joined: September 30, 2003
Posts: 144
| Posted: 2005-03-26 21:27
exactly, however, one cannot expect experience to teach us everything. we need to learn from others as well. study the mistakes of others, so you won't have to suffer them. study the lessons of others, so you can better yourself.
_________________
|
Fornax
Marshal
Raven Warriors
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 906
From: Jacksonville, FL
| Posted: 2005-03-26 23:28
I was present and offered another dissenting viewpoint - which happened to coincide with Banshee's.
In my opinion, the tactics being recommended represented an incomplete tactical analysis. One of the primary teachings of many "War books" is to concentrate your forces to destroy inferior forces. Sometimes this is known as concentration of fire to incrementally destroy enemy capabilities.
The problem, in Darkspace, with missile boats is this. While yes, it does allow you to strike from a distance...and yes, many (somewhat widely spaced ships) can concentrate all their fire onto a single enemy ship. Without other conditions, you lack the ability to force engagement. Sure, lets say I'm in a non-pulse shield ship...and 6 enemies launch a combined 50 IT missiles at me from 2000 gu.
Watch Fornax either 1) jump an additional 600 gu away and thus now out of the maximum 2500 gu range 2) jump completely away from the battle for a minute.
Some might suggest you've just controlled my maneuvering...another theme in Sun Tzu's book...but picture a different story. The missiles reach 1800 gu...and Fornax jumps to 100 gu from the enemy ships. The missiles can no longer hit me because they now have to travel 1800+1700 back (plus other maneuvering)...and they are all now 100% inneffective.
Make me a K'Luth and I simply cloak. All IT missiles break/lose lockon. Then I uncloak.
The incomplete analysis was based on the assumption that just because a target is in range, that they could and would impact (less point defense?). How do you fix all this? Throw in an Interdictor ship to hold me.
But...in the time it takes the missiles to cover 2000 gu, I can *fly* out of range without jumping. And, think on another topic. Why should I survive anyways? I'm fighting SOLO against 4-7 other ships....in open space, without support and have allowed myself to get stuck in an enemy interdictor field...time to self-destruct because I'm already up to 2 or 3 strikes.
The reason an Assault Dread (or any of the close combat ships) are better in combat, is because they allow you to concentrate firepower on an extremely small area, in a way (very short time span) that limits the enemies ability to escape between volleys. One of the most deadly ship combinations that you will EVER see in darkspace, is a group of three or more Dreadnoughts (Assault Dreadnought, Elite Assault Dreadnought, Siphon) in formation all targetting the same unit). In summary, ships die, quickly.
The real reason Banshee and I spoke up is -- while the above mentioned ideas sound good on paper - and the ideas themselves are valid...they are the wrong techniques and ideas to use in the given game conditions.
In summary, I and most long term veterans of this game will smugly continue with our known & proven reality. This game, in it's current incarnation, the most effective unit for the wide range of tactical situations (excepting the need for specific specialty units like reload, builds & troops) is the close combat ship.
Nax
_________________
|
|2eason
Grand Admiral
Agents
Joined: September 30, 2001
Posts: 1252
From: Wisconsin, US
| Posted: 2005-03-27 09:01
This thread brings back memories...
Anyways, I know I have heard of the book and have had it recommended to me, but I haven't read it. Sometimes, its best to learn the hard way, because it forces you to ponder the situation and think for yourself. An example, if you are just spoon-fed everything, you dont necessarily learn to your fullest capacity because you dont develop the ability to think for yourself, be creative and come up with your own answers and solutions. That is why I rarely read manuals unless I get stuck, or require specific info that can only be found within one.
Now, this game used to rely heavily on tactics, strategy and teamwork. These days, it has become "the team with the most players or the most uberest weapon will always win, unless they have no clue what they are doing, (n00bs)" Over the years, the balance became shifted with each added patch. As the development traded in uniqueness and diversity for shared technology and similarities across the factions, the balance was forced into the lap of the players. Whatever faction seemed to be the strongest after a patch became flooded with the majority of the playerbase, and thus would win most of the time. Also, an exception and a rule to this would be the Kluth. With the ability to mount the deadliest amount of firepower requiring the least amount of players, the Kluth could counter the player balance issue as long as it remained a minority-populated faction. But, when the players rushed to the Kluth, they became even more deadlier and would win an even greater majority of the battles.
Now, I couldn't tell you how gameplay has been since January, but I am pretty sure it hasn't changed much. The simple answer for this discussion and Darkspace is this: No matter how well you develop your tactics and refine your methods, if you are outnumbered in a fight or facing a stronger opponent, you will most likely lose. Due to the way the gameplay has been cultivated, it comes down to the number of opponents and which side has the most and strongest weapons. The battles become simplistic and predictable, which interestingly enough, leads to boredom.
Anyways, I have pretty much derailed from the topic, so I will finish up with this example of the last time I saw "tactics" and "strategy" win a fight in DS. This example also shows how the number of people plays the deciding role in a fight here in DS.
This is the battle of Lalande. The Agents grouped up a force composing of one station, about 4-5 dreads (varied), 15 or so cruisers (varied), a couple of destroyers (varied), and about 3 supply ships.
Setting the stage, the Kluth and the UGTO were engaged in this system, mostly around the Iop planet cluster. As they battled each other, the Squadren separated into two groups: The "bait" group and the "hammer" group. The "bait" group composed of the station, 2 of the supply ships, an interdictor, and the Dread wing. The "hammer" group was composed of the remaining supply ship, the cruisers and an interdictor.
The plan was this: "The "bait" group will capture and control the planet of Yahoo and will wait to come under attack. The "hammer" group will remain in deep space with everything powered down awaiting the command from the Squad Leader (Me, in the station)
It took about 3-3.5 hours of waiting and waiting for a victor to emerge from the Kluth/UGTO battle. Both sides knew we were at Yahoo, since we had captured it. Finally, the UGTO smelled the bait and got hungry.
The UGTO fleet was composed of several dreads, several cruisers and a few destroyers. They outnumbered the "bait" group, but they did not outnumber the combined strength of the Squad. Both sides were near a 1 to 1 ratio of players. As the UGTO finally jumped in and took the bait, the trap was sprung and as they seemed to be "winning" the battle the "hammer" group jumped in behind them and they were trapped. The UGTO force was caught between a hammer and an anvil, as the two interdictors moved into place to keep them from escaping. The UGTO force was completely wiped out save for a ship or two because they went into shock and spread out in all directions. Once the surprize attack was finished, time became the critical factor. The Squad reformed together and continued through the system. The next battle took place at Demaret. The UGTO tried to hold their ground but lost in the end. As the Squad pushed forward, we hit the regrouping grounds for the UGTO at Ugio and Veger. We smashed through them and eventually the tides turned, when the Kluth joined the frey. The battle ended once the Agent Squad was wiped out, but the mission overall was a sucess.
Spending the 4 hours or so for the experience of the battle and the teamwork and strategy element was well worth it. This Epic clash brought the gameplay to where it had been so very long ago, leaving all sides with the feeling of enjoyment and having fun no matter the result. The battle itself took place about 1.5-2 years ago, version 1.480.
This battle is an example of what this game is really all about, something that has been overshadowed by individual enjoyment and development towards that perspective.
Anyways, just thought I would share that story for those of you who weren't around when it took place and for those still here after all these years that will remember it.
- |2eason -
- Retired player and Member of the Agents High Council -
_________________
____________
[-[A]-]|2eason the retired
|
Banshee
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: August 28, 2001
Posts: 2181
From: Philadelphia, PA
| Posted: 2005-03-27 12:19
For the record, the plan |2eason just described and outlined there was my work.
I didnt need to read any books to figure that one out, human nature brought the enemy to us, and led to a humiliating defeat for the UGTO forces, and led to a springboard of ICC victories over the coming hours seeing the UGTO defeated time and time again at each sucessive planet.
Yes I will conceed that Savage has the right ideas, but for reasons both |2eason and Fornax stated, they cannot be implemented to the letter ingame, It just wont work.
To finish this topic once and for all regarding the circumstances it came from, Savage started pointing this out in the MV when we were vastly outnumbered by UGTO forces.
Best course of action without being able to make an effective assault and defence? Hit and Run Guerilla tactics.
Did it work? Yep
Would I do it again? You bet
Why? Because we executed it to a large degree of success, 2 cruisers lost, a Station several dreads and a few cruisers destroyed.
In a war of attrition, simply, make your enemy lose more than you do by any means nessecary.
Job Done.
Oh, Happy Easter everyone 
_________________
|
BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-03-27 13:08
^ noob
_________________
|
Captain_Savage
Cadet
Joined: September 30, 2003
Posts: 144
| Posted: 2005-03-27 14:26
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-27 12:19, Banshee [R33-HG] wrote:
For the record, the plan |2eason just described and outlined there was my work.
I didnt need to read any books to figure that one out, human nature brought the enemy to us, and led to a humiliating defeat for the UGTO forces, and led to a springboard of ICC victories over the coming hours seeing the UGTO defeated time and time again at each sucessive planet.
Yes I will conceed that Savage has the right ideas, but for reasons both |2eason and Fornax stated, they cannot be implemented to the letter ingame, It just wont work.
To finish this topic once and for all regarding the circumstances it came from, Savage started pointing this out in the MV when we were vastly outnumbered by UGTO forces.
Best course of action without being able to make an effective assault and defence? Hit and Run Guerilla tactics.
Did it work? Yep
Would I do it again? You bet
Why? Because we executed it to a large degree of success, 2 cruisers lost, a Station several dreads and a few cruisers destroyed.
In a war of attrition, simply, make your enemy lose more than you do by any means nessecary.
Job Done.
Oh, Happy Easter everyone
|
|
happy easter. ^_^
you know, we just agreed with each other.
anyway, i was only using our discussion as a footnote to introduce the book. you may have the skills nessisary to be great at this game, but what about others? can you speak for them? particularly the noobs who just bought the game?
just because you refuse to learn anything from a book, doesn't nessisarily mean noone else can learn from it.
_________________
|
Tikki
Cadet
Raven Warriors
Joined: March 10, 2005
Posts: 132
From: Canuckistan
| Posted: 2005-03-27 17:14
I hope you learned today to not get within 300gu of a station + his companions while on your own. 
_________________
I'm going to start wounding you now. I don't know when I'll stop.
Commander of the Missle Cruiser 'Nevermore'
|
|
English
Deutsch
Nederlands
)
