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a different take on lvl's |
Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
|  Posted: 2005-06-08 00:10
Wrong Ent, not all the vets had to when they first started, back in the prelease beta you could last past one alpha strike.
Anyways, i pulled the numbers from the resourcer to get the average number of armor slots per hull class. (Note some like the EAD and the AD have 1 additional armor/shield not reflected in this report.) This table takes into count each ship class modded to full level 8 armor for consistancy thus stock ship percentages will reflect much lower for the smaller vs. bigger ships than indicated here.
The comparison chart goes from the left to the right.
So its weighted as the left collums strength vs. the ship to the right in the upper collums.
Thus a Scouts armor is 87.5% as strong as a Transports. While a Station is 642.86% as strong as a scouts armor.
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Beast
Cadet
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: May 27, 2002
Posts: 345
From: Wouldnt you like to know
| Posted: 2005-06-08 01:59
Teal If a scout cant get out of the way by the time a dread can fire it,s next alpha then that pilot Noob or not shouldnt be playing.
It should only take 1.5 alpha strikes to kill a scout
2.5 for a frigate
4.7 for a dessie
7.5 for a cruiser
Around 11 for dread on dread.
Of course this is assuming each ship is fitted to max armour/weopon levels.
This formula would work perfectly assuming you used my previouse post in this thread on each ship limited to a certain level .
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-06-08 05:33
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Wrong Ent, not all the vets had to when they first started, back in the prelease beta you could last past one alpha strike.
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Huh? As far as I knew in Prerelease beta a Dessy got raped by a dread in a single alpha strike. Dessys and Cruisers were still heavily used because the ranking system was nowhere near top-heavy.
As I have said a long time ago, the whole concept of making newbies stand a chance against vets in huge ships is flawed to begin with. If a newbie tries to take on a dread with a scout, of course he should die. If a player gets pissy because he did that, well, he probably would not have stayed anyway. Even destroyers shouldnt be jumping in with hopes to take on a Dreadnought. Even Lone Cruisers.
Fact is, more newbies would actually put common sense together, see the awesome power of dreads, and have something to work for and therefore incentive to stay. Nobody would want to stay if their dreadnought is only marginally better than ships you get as a newbie. I know I would not have.
It makes the whole presteige system and the whole resource system pointless.
Especially since Dreads are going to be costing a whopping in resources lost.
[ This Message was edited by: RedXIII on 2005-06-08 05:35 ]
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c0ld
Midshipman
Joined: June 24, 2003
Posts: 342
From: UK
| Posted: 2005-06-08 15:16
I think the difficulty here, with the relative powers between scout and dreads, is the damage and targeting systems.
Yes, dreads should be able to withstand anything a destroyer throws at it, but, it should be vulnerable to small ships that can target and destroy it's subsystems. I think Freespace 2 had the perfect system as far as the big/small balance goes.
But untill DS has that kind of sophistication, a happy medium needs to be struck, imo.
ps. bump, cause I made a heavy edit on page 2.
[ This Message was edited by: c0ldfury on 2005-06-08 15:17 ]
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-06-08 15:21
c0ldfury, this isnt Freespace 2 to be honest, theres no such thing as a 'happy medium', Small ships shouldnt be singlehandedly torching a big ship. Thats why Big ships are expensive and require a lot of presteige and rank.
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c0ld
Midshipman
Joined: June 24, 2003
Posts: 342
From: UK
| Posted: 2005-06-08 15:33
Ok, Red, you keep saying DS is not this and not that. What is it then? If you don't use existed concepts to determine what it is, you end up saying "It should be like THIS because I say so!"
Freespace has a very good model of space combat, DS should strive toward something similar. What do you base your assertion that "Dreads should kick ass but be expensive" on?
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-06-08 15:34
On how Darkspace used to be.
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c0ld
Midshipman
Joined: June 24, 2003
Posts: 342
From: UK
| Posted: 2005-06-08 15:56
I remember how DS used to be, in the 1.480 scen servers at least, where dreads had to be worked for, but owned the battlefield when they arrived. I remember spending an hour or so building up planets, desperately staving off bombing raids, working with the team to get the tech research up to scratch...
Then I remember, about 30-45mins before the map finished, they'd be a sudden in-flux of players.. Suddenly the planets I worked on started getting locked down. I would try to change my engi for a combat vessel, only to find that all the resourses had gone, vanished.
Of course all those new players were FAs, rushing into the game when all the hard work had been done. Flying around in stations built with the resourses I had got them.
And there I was with a stock dessy that I couldn't mod cause I was locked out of my own planet, getting slaughtered time after time, by dreads that could kill me in an alpha or two.
O, they were the days:)
Of course, in the MV, dreads were never expensive. Dreadspace, yeah lets bring that back.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-06-08 15:58
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Of course, in the MV, dreads were never expensive.
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Your agreeing that was the only flaw. If that was the only flaw, lets fix that flaw. Than Darkspace would be much better, if not perfect.
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c0ld
Midshipman
Joined: June 24, 2003
Posts: 342
From: UK
| Posted: 2005-06-08 16:38
Kind of. In scen servers, dreads were hard to get and powerful. This meant that a)Someone always lost out when it came to getting the bigger ships. I mean, who decides who gets the resources? and b) newbs got farmed.
In MV, there were plenty of resources about and most could get dreads, even if most prefered ACs etc. Because of this tho, newbs got farmed too. It was a 'steep learning curve' entering the mv. It was fun, yes, but it put a lot of players off I'd imagine.
As a side note, one of the problems DS has with big ship vs small, is the accuracy of heavy lasers and ruptors. A big powerful anti cap-ship laser should not be able to target and track a scout. It should cut swathes through cap ships, do good damage to a cruiser, almost miss a dessy, and a scout should see it coming, imo.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-06-08 16:45
Ill be honest right here. Destroyers shouldnt be singlehandedly taking on Dreadnoughts. It is very much so common sense. Now a squad of destroyers is entirely something different.
As for farming newbies, well, people should know they are not gaining anything for torching newbies. A dread smacking a destroyer gets almost nothing for it. EXP Scaling fixes that (Read the 'Full proposal thread')
Honestly, in battles with both sides fielding one or more dreadnoughts, the Dreadnoughts would very likely go after eachother. However, in a fight with only one Dreadnought, that Dreadnought should be very effective against the enemy force. The only time the enemy force would have a chance is if they fielded more destroyers and cruisers to compensate for the Dreadnought.
Also, read the full proposal thread in its entirety. It is aiming to make Dreadnoughts uber, yes, but its also aiming to fix their proliferation, fix newbie-farming, and fix many other things.
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-06-09 12:10
Going to tweak the armor factors a bit more. Armor/Shield ystem I had originally worked out called for being based from the cruiser hull but Gideons numbers called for the base being off the destroyer.
Next update we will test with the cruiser being the base again. Dreads and Stations had their multiplier raised while all other vessels had their multiplier lowered.
In the charts below you can see the factors now vs. the next test.
Current Beta Armor factors
Next test Beta Armor Factors
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LordShard
Cadet
Joined: April 28, 2005
Posts: 140
| Posted: 2005-06-09 12:29
Looks like stations and cruisers are getting buffed, everything else nerfed. heh heh
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-06-09 12:46
actually cruisers got dropped 10% while dreads got + 25% and stations +50% over base from where they were before.
I also just cut the turn radius on all the missiles, ar's (short range missiles) were not able to hit anything, cut its arc by half.
Cut IT's arc by 33%
Cut Psi's arc by 25%
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2005-06-09 15:31
Me likey.
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