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a different take on lvl's |
Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
|  Posted: 2005-06-06 03:27
Actually Coldfury, Chromix and I discussed the idea of a mutliple rating scale with a limit of 10 for all combined levels.
For now F wants just one rating.
Now the max level limit per ship hull is actually a good idea...
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c0ld
Midshipman
Joined: June 24, 2003
Posts: 342
From: UK
| Posted: 2005-06-06 05:03
Nice to know something similar is in the pipeline.
I figured after writing all that, all I was really getting at is that the components can be described purely mathematicaly, and the act of doing so would provide the limits on balance. Here's a simple way to go about it;
Any change towards one attribute causes opposite changes in the others, such that the area (energy drain) remains the same. You should be able to lock attributes to stop them moving, but this has a much bigger effect on the unlocked ones. Locking 3 off while adjusting the forth would increase the energy drain.
Each type of torpedo would have a bonus in a particular direction. AM for damage, Fusion for range and P torp for um, tracking maybe.
Other attributes like recharge rate could be dealt with by other components, in this case the reactor.
Adjusting for peak output would favour recharge rates at the expensive of capacity and continous output(shields, powered armour etc)
Obviously the values would have to be translated to real values. It would be easier to do this arbitrarily. So for the range of an F torp, the middle (5) would be 500gu with maybe an upper(10) and lower(0) limit of 550 and 450. So the increment would be 10 in this case, but different for the other attributes.
Of course, that method is in no way realistic. But to do it properly gets way complicated way fast (I've tried). Trying to work out Energy drain using the kinetic energy of the shell, or range based on some kind of reaction stability number, requires too many arbitrary attributes.
[ This Message was edited by: c0ldfury on 2005-06-08 14:14 ]
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c0ld
Midshipman
Joined: June 24, 2003
Posts: 342
From: UK
| Posted: 2005-06-06 06:57
Quote:
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On 2005-06-06 03:27, Tael wrote:
Now the max level limit per ship hull is actually a good idea...
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That could work with the current system too, couldn't it. Frigate could upgrade to lvl5, station to level 15. I think that's been suggested before though. Here in fact, by Jim S.
[ This Message was edited by: c0ldfury on 2005-06-06 07:07 ]
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-06-06 11:19
I was looking at maybe a multi-tier limit system per hull.
Special
Special 2
Weapons
Armor is already affected by hull size.
So a Scout and Dread may have limits like this to further define their rolls.
Scout
Special 1 Limit - 15
Special 2 Limit - 4
Weapons Limit - 4
Dread
Special 1 Limit - 4
Special 2 Limit - 8
Weapons Limit - 8
(As special 1 is mostly sensors ecm, etc) The only device that may be an issue with this sytem will be the Tractor beams...
This way dreads can mount bigger weapons, but not as sophisticated sensors...
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2005-06-06 14:52
Quote:
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On 2005-06-05 02:38, Shigernafy wrote:
That, coldfury, is pure brilliance.
I don't know that it'll show up any time soon, but it is undeniably brilliant. I look forward to a day when we could have something like that.
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I must agree 100%
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2005-06-06 17:57
Quote:
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On 2005-06-06 11:19, Tael wrote:
Armor is already affected by hull size. |
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You sure about that? I always noticed that small ships mounting dread-strength armor was a bit akward. Does this really work, or just not enough?
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-06-06 22:50
Quote:
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On 2005-06-06 17:57, Bobamelius wrote:
You sure about that? I always noticed that small ships mounting dread-strength armor was a bit akward. Does this really work, or just not enough?
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Yes, level 8 armor on a scout is only 56% as strong as the same level 8 armor on a dread.
A scout also only gets one armor per arc, the dread typically 2 armors per arc, there for the scout only has 28% the armor a dread does per arc.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-06-07 16:41
Only, Tael? No wonder Destroyers/cruisers are such hard nuts to crack and Dreadnoughts so easy to destroy.
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2005-06-07 16:51
Thanks, now I know how this works so I can pick on it.
Shouldn't there be a LOT more difference between hull classes? A scout has a cumulative 28% armor strength of a dread? That seems a bit absurd to me, personally.
Here's the old balance theorem (which, whether you subscribe to it or not, is still interesting to look at...)
Dread = 2 cruisers
Cruiser = 2 dessies
Dessie = 2 frigates
Frigate = 2 scouts
So if you compare scouts vs. dreads using this idea, 2*2*2*2 = 16 scouts for one dread. Or 8 frigates. Or 4 dessies. Or 2 cruisers. That sounds about right to me.
But...
The way it is now, four scouts = one dread. Again, even if this idea means nothing to you, the fact that 4 scouts can even think about equalling a dreadnought seems just a little bit off kilter.
Now from a more factual point of view... if a scout has 56% armor strength of a dreadnought per facing, but only has 1 armor per facing, Destroyers generally have two armors per facing. That means of course, even with SCOUT strength armor, they're every bit as tough as a Dreadnought.
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-06-07 20:14
Well at this point adjusting the armors to those specs will greatly increase the combat time and make smaller ships to easy to kill...
How about scaling it slightly to give new players a bit of a chance
3 scouts = 2 Frigates
3 Frigate = 2 destroyers
3 destroyers = 2 cruisers
1 dread = 1.5 cruisers
1 station = 2 dread
Not exact numbers but something like that, so at the low end the next ship is only about 50% tougher, but ramps up at the high end...
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-06-07 20:31
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Well at this point adjusting the armors to those specs will greatly increase the combat time and make smaller ships to easy to kill...
How about scaling it slightly to give new players a bit of a chance
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Your kindly forgetting that small ships rely on speed, not armor, to survive. They are supposed to be easy to kill, assuming they can be hit. Honestly I think even Boba's scaling system is a little too far-leaning to cruisers/destroyers.
Not to mention Dreads are high-profile ships, everybody would shoot at them first. So they must have some very tough hull to last a long while.
[ This Message was edited by: RedXIII on 2005-06-07 20:33 ]
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-06-07 20:55
Quote:
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On 2005-06-07 20:31, RedXIII wrote:
Your kindly forgetting that small ships rely on speed, not armor, to survive. They are supposed to be easy to kill, assuming they can be hit. |
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Easier yes, but no ship should be destroyed in one hit alpha strike.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2005-06-07 20:59
enh, but no Destroyer should be able to withstand alpha after alpha from Dreadnoughts either.
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2005-06-07 21:40
even the scouts need to be able to take 1 or 2 alphas or no newbie would keep playing after 2 dreads jump him and fire one volley. We had that problem once already...
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-06-07 21:50
The current players of DS (us old ones), had to deal with the sort of thing in which your now trying to prevent. We were all once newbs, and we all took a beating. Its hard, but we cant be expected to hold their hand through it...
And additionally, easy way to give newbs a chance : Newbie server. No dreads. No cruisers even. In fact, in newbie one hit kills are next to impossible.
-Ent
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