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Bombing Balance Issue |
Ragglock
Marshal
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1955
From: Denmark
|  Posted: 2005-07-23 11:39
smoke look at what the thread is called "Bombing Balance Issue"
not "weapon ballance issiue" another pin head goes of about kluth weapons to strokn whenhe probaly dont know what refelective armor is 
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Ramius
Fleet Admiral
Agents
Joined: January 12, 2002
Posts: 894
From: Ramius
| Posted: 2005-07-23 11:54
At least now you understand what it's like to be out of balance. Don't attack other factions and call them whiners as the Kluth have done so much in the past.
Kluth bombing is no where near the same level as ICC or UGTO.
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Phoebuzz
Grand Admiral
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 110
| Posted: 2005-07-23 12:20
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On 2005-07-23 07:54, Enterprise wrote:
One thing Kluth players, that I have rarely ever seen taken into account, is other factions. When it comes to deciding what they want in their ships, I have never seen a K'luth say:
"Reduce the DAs recharge/energy drain, also to balence things, do the same for the HCL on human ships."
Its all me me me.
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It was I, a K'luth player, that reported the broken recharge of Disruptors.
Of course, I never expected the devs to over-fix the problem and nerf the DAs into oblivion. DAs were K'luth's only good offense before the fix. So now K'luth have no offensive advantage and a major defensive disadvantage making them, by far, the weakest faction in combat.
The bugged cloak (our ONLY advantage) is on the lowest priority for fixing. (ECCM toggling, Lag/ECCM pinging, beacon spam, broken cost for small ships)
They removed any reasonable supplying from the K'luth. Which means any low ranking players looking for supply prestige will switch to UGTO or ICC. Without any good supply ship and or players to pilot them, the K'luth will lose any battle based on attrition, and sadly for K'luth, hit and run is purely based on attrition.
K'luth have, since the 1.483 patch, the worst bombers and bombs in the game. Human bombs have 2-3 times more ammo than K'luth bombs, and human bombers can carry 2-3 times more bombs than K'luth bombers.
Then the devs completely nerfed the K'luths defense base to the point where they are currently unable to shoot down bombs. So now K'luth defense bases can't do anything vs. any kind of human bombing. Yet K'luth defense bases are still excelent against K'luth bombers. What a stealth nerf, pure evil genius, great job devs!
So, now the K'luth are the worst in combat, the worst at taking planets, the worst at defending planets, make the worst prestige (supplying and bombing) and have the lowest population.
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On 2005-07-23 07:54, Enterprise wrote:
Take into account how WE feel about it.
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It is not the human faction that get constantly nerfed, it is K'luth. Take into account how WE feel about it.
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Sevnn
Cadet
Joined: March 15, 2002
Posts: 23
| Posted: 2005-07-23 12:39
Guys, Guys, Guys: Please have some respect here. If you want to talk about Kluth balance issues, create your own thread or post in one of the other 10,000 threads regarding that issue. This thread is about BOMBING BALANCE ISSUES. Please don't thread jack.
Back to topic.
The issue I am discussing had nothing to do with Kluth weaknesses. Perhaps they exist but this was an ICC (bomber) vs UGTO (defense). I'm fully aware of cloud bombing. I've participated in more bomber dread(s) with 1-2 supply ships per to break into a planetary defense grid. I've had my share of planet leveling and it has its place in the game. I'm not arguing that.
What I am arguing is a single non-supplied, non-defended bomber frigate leveling an entire planet that has defense. There really is no point of building up a planet, or even playing the game for that matter if a bomber FRIGATE can wipe a DEFENDED planet by himself WITHOUT support.
What I'm looking for is some manner of indication from the devs that this is giong to change. I've put in almost 500 hours of game play (I believe thats the correct math) invested in Darkspace. I had hoped that playing in the trial period (even though I can't gain more prestige) would intice me to renew my subscription (I've been offline since 7/2003). I did really enjoy the first 45 minutes or so of scenario play but having 45 minutes of my work destroyed with nothing I could about it is too frustrating.
If this is an exploit and is going to be fixed I could see possible future play. If this is 'the way its going to be" I'll waste my time elsewhere.
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JackSwift
Cadet
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: October 30, 2002
Posts: 1806
From: Where the Sun dont Shine (Seattle-ish)
| Posted: 2005-07-23 12:43
Quote:
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On 2005-07-23 11:54, Ramius {C?} wrote:
At least now you understand what it's like to be out of balance. Don't attack other factions and call them whiners as the Kluth have done so much in the past.
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So true. This situation has come up before a few times in the past. K'luth enjoy a version of said 'superiority' with better ships and more players. A fix comes out and then suddenly K'luth don't have uber ships anymore. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, the "most skilled players in the game" (as I've seen K'luth repeatedly tell themselves in forum posts, how about most arrogant and vain players in the game) resort to the same whining they themselves condemned. It sickens me every time it happens, but I hesitate to blame it entirely on the K'luth players.
After all, remember that the K'luth enjoyed a version with superior ships and the largest playerbase for so long (1.480), it's hard to let go. I'm sure most K'luth players would love to go back to the days of 1.480, the days of 2 reload + autorepair 6 CL2k ganglias, ECM forting, rax rotation, fast and powerful 5CL2k destroyers, 8 AM mine cloaked scarabs, the 5 bomb clavate, the toughest station (Hive) and the only dictor with a power generator.
I think that those the K'luth vets have never been able to truly let those deep seeded feelings of superiority go. Well, now's the time to exercise some humility. You're no better or worse than anyone else who plays this game. The rest of us play DarkSpace too, and what happens to one of us happens to all of us.
In the meantime, let's all think this through with a clear head. The devs already know MIRV's wiping out a whole planet in one pass isn't what is supposed to happen. Inbetween fixing the lag and the rest of every DS player's complaints, it will get fixed.
Also, I post this question to the human factions bombing. Why in the heck are you guys using MIRV's!?!? Use neutrons and wipe the planet clean of infantry and take it over. No engineering required! 
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Ragglock
Marshal
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1955
From: Denmark
| Posted: 2005-07-23 12:57
[quote]
On 2005-07-23 12:43, JackSwift wrote:
Quote:
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Why in the heck are you guys using MIRV's!?!? Use neutrons and wipe the planet clean of infantry and take it over. No engineering required!
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easy prestige dont take any professor to figure out
i dont know when and why this turned into an "kluth derserves nerf"
discussion
but any thing that so much as tuch the ablity to easy earn prestige gets response like that these days.
anything conserning kluth get that response to "you desreve it for beeing uber fraction in 1724"
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JackSwift
Cadet
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: October 30, 2002
Posts: 1806
From: Where the Sun dont Shine (Seattle-ish)
| Posted: 2005-07-23 13:07
I'm used to playing for the betterment of the team, not earning easy prestige (which reminds me, we still need prestige for dictors!!! ). Those of you humans MIRVing K'luth planets to the stone age just for easy prestige need a talking to about the finer values in life.
Oh, and Ragg, I was just pointing out why I think most K'luth vets are the way they are. If you don't want to practice a little humility, that's fine with me. My advice is given with a grain of salt, and no one is under any obligation to take it to heart. I'd just like to see everyone have a chance to embrace each other's views. A lofty goal that I'm sure will never happen, but that doesn't stop me from trying.
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ReZ
Vice Admiral
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 59
From: Eh?
| Posted: 2005-07-23 13:11
To those of you who are taking this personally, you need to grow up.
Ent.. If youve learned anything in your lifetime, which i pray that you have, learn this.
Do NOT generalize the kluth from ONE persons statement.. I believe Ragg was the one you were responding too. Dont pin this on all the kluth players.. Thats stereotypical, arrogant and immature. Do you see any of the bums posting here? Evil? PB? No.
So chill out, have a coke and a smile.. play kluth this version for 2 weeks and then come back here to nail all of us for "crying" your sick of that? I'm sick of you talking that fresh yellow steamy pile of dog poo.
So next time, be smart on who you choose to accuse or whatever the hell your talking about, instead of hating on a whole group of people..
christ..
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2005-07-23 13:25
Yeah, the only k'luth I ever see post is ragg, and he just whines about how much he can't kill stuff anymore.
but thats just my observation...
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Banshee
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: August 28, 2001
Posts: 2181
From: Philadelphia, PA
| Posted: 2005-07-23 13:53
The Ironic thing is Ragg should know better, but then I cant remember which faction BIS were when Kluth were released.
Everyone else I can understand complaining about how "Weak" the Kluth have become since this version came out.
Admittedly I loved 5 CL2k Claws aswell. But yeah anyway, all these 6 month, 1 year Kluth players probably honestly do think they have a right to complain about the "Nerf", because they really dont know any better.
Take it from someone who played Kluth for the first 11 months of their release, you guys have NO idea how lucky you are with your current versions, back then, It really was like being the red headed step child.
ICC/UGTO Whiners also, give it a rest guys. You all seem to know the bombing is an unfair advantage over Kluth, and you all like to quote examples of when they exploited something similar. Well congrats to dropping down to others levels.
Honestly, give it a rest and just see how things go, gets too bad? then try another faction, go play another game for a month, come back and try again.
And Ragg, im gonna lock you and Backy in a cage for a week. I'd be very interested to see the end result
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ReZ
Vice Admiral
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 59
From: Eh?
| Posted: 2005-07-23 14:18
Quote:
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On 2005-07-23 13:53, Banshee {C?} wrote:
The Ironic thing is Ragg should know better, but then I cant remember which faction BIS were when Kluth were released.
Everyone else I can understand complaining about how "Weak" the Kluth have become since this version came out.
Admittedly I loved 5 CL2k Claws aswell. But yeah anyway, all these 6 month, 1 year Kluth players probably honestly do think they have a right to complain about the "Nerf", because they really dont know any better.
Take it from someone who played Kluth for the first 11 months of their release, you guys have NO idea how lucky you are with your current versions, back then, It really was like being the red headed step child.
ICC/UGTO Whiners also, give it a rest guys. You all seem to know the bombing is an unfair advantage over Kluth, and you all like to quote examples of when they exploited something similar. Well congrats to dropping down to others levels.
Honestly, give it a rest and just see how things go, gets too bad? then try another faction, go play another game for a month, come back and try again.
And Ragg, im gonna lock you and Backy in a cage for a week. I'd be very interested to see the end result
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preach it man.. preach it like a prophet..
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Sevnn
Cadet
Joined: March 15, 2002
Posts: 23
| Posted: 2005-07-23 14:33
Do all threads in the DS forums get threadjacked this quickly? This is ridiculous guys. I kindly request that you take your Kluth arguements elsewhere yet you post 5 more times with your Kluth vs All war. Please read the following line:
THIS THREAD IS FOR DISCUSSION OF BOMBING BALANCE ISSUES, PLEASE DISCUSS KLUTH BALANCE ISSUES ELSEWHERE!!!!!
Would it be possible for a Mod/Admin to split this thread? I'd like to get some form of resolution to my concerns and if this Kluth bashing keeps up in this thread I'll likely see no resolution.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2005-07-23 14:38
Someone in the lobby: UGTO and Kluth need help, ICC outnumbers them 4-1!
we had 17 ships online
we were outnumbered and outgunned in the 2 systems we were fighting in
(Ross, a bunch of dessies and 2 dreads against a station fleet with 3 dread escorts, eps eri was 2 ships against several cruisers and a dreadnaught. some reinforcements logged in to ross, and the commander there managed to route the UGTO while i showed up in eri. eri was quickly reinforced)
at our peak i think we had 33 people online, mind you, about 7-10 of these people were in extractors for some odd reason. basically, not everyone was attacking.
nextly, in Eri we had 2-3 dreadnaughts. our bomber dread got attacked by 4. the only reason we didnt lose it is because i was making an inf run to the planet wed just hit (in a dessie), ane ragglock in his interidictor decided i was more imporant and turned off Ramius. rami got away, i think i mightve too, cant remember. in any case, for most of the night it felt very much like WE were the ones outnumbered at the front. we had to resort to taking all the outlying planets instead of attacking the main clusters. this was also due to the tremendous lag spikes we were getting in procyon and eri.
and i personally agree with Ents general view. Kluth are what they ought to be. i remember kluth players asking if they could have ships with 20 torpedoes on them, cause they thought itd make the game more fun... when a newbie player thinks the kluth are supposed to slaughter everyone else, theres probably a reason - game inbalance. ive heard semi-vets say kluth are suppose to be the superalien race. wrong, theyre suppose to be the BALANCED alien race. honestly, just shut up. im talking to all sides of this idiotic argument. the Devs wont listen to a bunch of players complaining about issues that dont exist, and they already know about all the issues that do exist, but unfortunately ragglock, WE HAVE TO KEEP PLAYING THE GAME, and in order to take a planet we have to BOMB it, im sorry that theres a glitch with bombing, i really am, but its going to be fixed, and u cant call us all exploiters for playing the game. your clavate is more powerful then the bomber dessie, and thats what ICC have been using mostly. why? we have 5 people who can take bomber dread probably is why. your ENTIRE faction can take stations with a few exceptions, so dont tell me you cant fight us off. INNOVATE.
and @ Svenn, for the bombing issue
Dedvs have known for a few days now that if enough bombs hit a planet, they reach a "threshhold" that magnifies their splash damage to encompass every single structure on the planet. the issue is being addressed, and it will be fixed soon. so you just need to keep trying and hope noone bombs your planet to smithereens really =) give it a couple more days and the problem probably wont exist anymore.
PS: at ragglock, it takes more then 2 mirvs to wipe a planet. you dont know what youre talking about. have a nice day
[ This Message was edited by: N'Kra The Wolf {C?} on 2005-07-23 14:46 ]
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Ragglock
Marshal
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1955
From: Denmark
| Posted: 2005-07-23 14:39
never mind
fyi i played mv as ugto and icc 4 years before most of you had your DS dipers on.
out of subject kluth is dead now nothing more to say..
[ This Message was edited by: Ragglock {BUM in Disguise} on 2005-07-23 14:48 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2005-07-23 14:44
I've probably posted as much if not more than Ragg recently on all these issues, and I'm Kluth.
The fact is Kluth have the worst bombers and the worst planet defense. Strong disruptors I think was the wrong way to go; it actually made the planets weaker. And I knew this would happen the moment I heard of these changes from Tael.
You know what happens to the faction that has the worst bombers, the worst planet defense, and the worst supply in the game? Everybody leaves them.
Now, because this thread is about bombing balance issues. I'm gonna list my observations:
1. Kluth defense bases can't stop even a meager bomb cloud. UGTO only do slightly better; their PD is slow firing too.
2. Kluth bombers are easily the worst in the game. Perhaps the worst in the history of this game (frigates don't count) when compared to ICC and UGTO. Pair this with #1 and there's a major problem.
3. Fighter bombers are just way too good at what they do. Ever watch a fighter bomber with "C"? (camera mode). Watch where they launch their bombs from and watch how those bombs don't get PD. It's because they get as close as possible to the surface before launching, and when they do the PD mistakenly targets the fighters first. And once that PD is done with the fighters their bombs are already too close for 2nd PD attempt. Hence, they're foolproof. The bombs themselves do low damage but a few rounds of fighter bombers renders a planet vulnerable to an easy capture.
I can't the number of times I've seen this taken advantage of. Not saying it's wrong for whoever's using them, just that for a long range and perfectly safe bomber it's too easy to use and virtually guaranteed to work.
**Suggestion for all fighters: Instead of resupplying our ships' fighters at a depot or with reload drones, make fighter bases resupply our ships with fighters. Gives fighter bases an actual use again and prevents a lot of that fighter spam especially fighter bomber spam that can and will take down any non-ICC planet.**
4. ICC bomber dreadnaught: This beast has no place in the game anymore. There's zero reason for the "defensive" faction with the best planet defense to have the most offensive ship in the entire game. Bomber dreads aren't offensive you say? Yes they are, that's their ONLY purpose. To decimate entire planets in one bombing run.
Get rid of this thing and replace it with something more along the lines of what UGTO and Kluth have.
5. MIRV and Bio bomb damage is too high, but this has already been noted by the devs and is due to be fixed. So this is just a temporary problem.
7. What happened to the idea of every faction getting their own form of planetary shield? I know I used to hear it when 1.483 was in the planning stages. Only ICC still gets it which is fine because they're the "defensive" faction. But as I noted above that bomber dread throws that ideaology off. ICC get the best point defense for planets (defense is better than offense for a DEFENSE BASE *hint hint*), a shield which makes their planets even stronger, AND a bomber that can nuke planets into obliviion in a matter of seconds. Fair? Nah. Balanced? Nope. Fixable? Yes. Otherwise ICC is more the "planet pwnzoring" faction than the "defensive" faction.
8. Platforms are due. I have no idea what they will be, how they will work, their strengths or weakness etc. so I cannot make suggestions changes to the game for the future with them in mind.
There's problems here. If we don't resort to yelling at each other and keep it civil I'm confident these problems will be fixed.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2005-07-23 14:49 ]
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