| Author |
Level System Changes - Proposal |
Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
|  Posted: 2005-07-23 23:13
Now I would start off by saying this is an idea I had before 483 was released, but I decided to put it off and see how it would pan out first.
I read Faustus's proposal to remove modding altogether to resolve a lot of issues we're facing, but personally I'm against it. I think rather than another extreme change, perhaps a balance can be found that simplifies the modding/upgrading system, while giving more control to devs.
The crux of my proposal is this: only normal weapons can be upgraded. All other items have no level, including armour and bombs. Armour strength and all others are controlled completely by the hull modifier. However you can still for example switch out standard for ablative, or reactive for active. Since it's controlled by the modifier, no other change needs to be made (no need to upgrade).
Engines, jump drives, specials, bombs, mines, core weapons etc don't need levels. It only adds complexity and cost. It's simpler and easier to balance if all these are controlled by the hull. Of course you can switch out IE for AME/PFE still.
Basically non-weapons become almost 482 style.
Specifically on Armour:
To start, all armour strengths, IMO, should be reduced by about 25% on current values. Also I see armour like this:
- Standard - Highest strength, lowest repair rate. Special ability - can be refitted ablative/reflective to counter particular weapons.
- Organic - Medium strength, medium repair rate. Special ability - allows cloaking.
- Shields - Easily the lowest strength, fastest repair rate. Special ability - can be turned.
The points per second repaired should from highest to lowest be Shields - Organic - Standard. Shields have pps double that of standard, organic halfway.
Strengths are all base x hull modifier. Perfect dev control over ship durability. If something needs to be changed it can be done without affecting anything else. IE, no uber ICC dessy. No issues with stock ship dying to half an alpha and upgraded being unkillable. Players don't have to worry about it.
Weapons
Also there needs to be changes to weapons. The system now basically means lvl0 is nigh on useless, with lvl4-6 being bare minimum for noticable damage. Mostly I think the levels are fairly balanced, my only issue is the massive difference in damage per second between lvl0-lvl8.
Cannons:
Cannons lose rate of fire, lose speed, increase damage, increase range, increase energy with level. This is good. I think the changes in speed/range are fairly well done. However I think the damage gap is far too high, needs to be reduced, while maintaining high level doing higher dps.
Beams:
Beams lose rate of fire, increase energy cost, increase range, increase damage with level. They are pretty good, but overall CL damage needs to be increased, while decreasing the damage gap.
Heavy CL should do slightly higher damage overall.
Disruptor are pretty good as it is.
High level use massively more energy than low. Otherwise, there's no reason not to use all high level wherever you can, apart from pd.
Do not change in range with level.
Torpedos:
Torpedoes lose ammo, lose rate of fire, lose speed, increase energy cost, increase damage, increase range with level. They need increased range and damage overall, and reduced damage gap. Also need increased speed gap.
Missiles:
Missiles should only change with speed, turn arc, damage and range with level. High level move a lot slower. Reduce damage gap.
Damage gaps should be reduced by swinging damage around lvl8. Meaning, lvl8 stays same, lower levels increase and higher decrease. Really the focus is on making low level weapons good against small ships, dessy or so, while high level being more efficient at taking out big ships.
Upgrading costs will have to be reduced massively. Cost to upgrade should be difference between this and next level values. To compensate, increase module values. Look on the level of 70-80k for a high level cannon.
IMPORTANTLY, stock ships should come with the weapon levels suited for what the ship is designed for. So, assault ships would come stock with all high level (6-8) weapons. Combat dreads would come with a mix of 4-8, to reflect their general purpose, anti-dread/cruiser focus. Dessy would come with all lvl0-2 weapons, except ships like assault dessy and claw which would be 4-6.
If you did read through all that, I'm sorry. It's rather crude and direct, but there's a lot to say and I didn't really want it long. Personally I think something along these lines is the only real option outside of removing modding or removing the level system.
[ This Message was edited by: Lonectzn on 2005-07-23 23:21 ]
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Captain Sternn
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 225
| Posted: 2005-07-23 23:51
Some good points here.
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Anubis132
Vice Admiral
Joined: September 21, 2002
Posts: 65
From: San Jose
| Posted: 2005-07-24 00:22
indeed there is.
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GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
| Posted: 2005-07-24 03:23
Heavy Organic Armor, Like our answer to the humans Mirv we have Neutron Bombs however the Heavy Organic Armor is for all ships including smaller ones 
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-07-24 04:46
My view is simply get rid of levels, they add so much inbalence to a game already in that state of ways.
Modding should, additionally, always be for alternatives never for any other reason. Modding should be indeed, IMO, good for different applications, there should be no "one weapon beats all" in a catagory.
The idea I had, which is inspired by someone else (whos name I can't remember at this present time, if its your idea, say something, I hate taking full credit for something that isnt mine), is to make components automatically scaled by hull type.
Essentially, every component is the same when you buy it, however, once you fit it onto your hull, its variables change to the ships class specifics, or to make some ships even more useful, based on each individual ship.
Additionally, you would move APGs and ASGs to a 'Reserves' slot, in order to seperate them from the Special I slots and maintain more control over ship energy.
Ill go about changes to components later on...
- Scout : Level 1-2 Armor/Shields, Level 1-2 Weapons, Level 9-10 Special I, Level 1-2 Engines/JD, Level 1-3 Reserves.
- Frigate : Level 2-3 Armor/Shields, Level 2-3 Weapons, Level 7-8 Special I, Level 2-3 Engines/JD. Level 2-3 Reserves.
- Destroyer : Level 3-4 Armor/Shields, Level 3-4 Weapons, Level 5-7 Special I, level 1-3 Special II, Level 3-5 Engines/JD, Level 3-5 Reserves.
- Cruiser : Level 5-7 Armor/Shields, Level 5-7 Weapons, Level 3-5 Special I, Level 3-6 Special II, Level 5-7 Engines/JD, Level 5-8 Reserves.
- Dreadnought : Level 7-8 Armor/Shields, Level 6-8 Weapons, Level 1-2 Special I, Level 6-8 Special II, Level 8-10 Engines/JD, Level 8-10 Reserves.
- Assault Dreadnought : Level 10 Armor/Shields, Level 10 Weapons, Level 0 Special I, Level 10 Special II, level 10 Engines/JD, Level 10 Reserves.
- Station : Level 10+* Armor/Shields, Level 10+* Weapons, Level 10+* Special I & II. Level 10+* Engines/JD, level 10+* Reserves.
- Transport : Level 4-5 Armor/Shields, Level 0-1 Weapons, Level 1-2 Special I, Level 0-1 Engines/JD, level 1-2 Reserves.
- Supply : Level 2-4 Armor/Shields, Level 0-1 Weapons, Level 1-2 Special I, Level 0-1 Engines/JD, level 1-4 Reserves.
- Engineer : Level 1-2 Armor/Shields, Level 1-2 Weapons, Level 8-10 Special I, level 0-1 Engines/JD, level 1-2 Reserves.
The * indicates levels beyond ten being a possibility...
However this is is just a baseline, each faction would have different values.
UGTO ships would be closest to this baseline, with higher levels in reserves.
With slightly decreased levels in all other catagprys (assault ships do not apply)
ICC Ships would have higher Armor/Shields, of the factions, and the lowest Weapons. (assault ships do not apply)
Kluth Ships would have Higher weapons, but lower reserves. (assault ships do not apply)...
Additionally, these are values more specific to the class. Lets say they were more determinalistic by ship, and even more specific by weapons to each ship.
For example...
A UGTO Torpedo Cruiser, would have the values apply to it for its class. It would probably have higher armor than the baseline, lower Special I, lower Reserves, Higher weapons/special II, higher engines/JD.
Even more detailed, Torpedos would be an additional level higher atop the higher than baseline weapons levels., while mounting missles, lets say instead, would reduce it to the baseline.
Effectively, using a ship the way it was designed for is more effective than using it in a way its not intended.
But this would require alot of testing, and alot of tweaking to accomplish., along with ALOT of coding.
As for components, they in my eyes should be scaled as the following :
(general for all not specific)
Engines : Higher levels mean more energy, less speed, less acceleration, higher regen. (gap should be steady)
Jumpdrive : Higher levels mean more distance, less cost per distance, slower recharging, more energy to recharge. (gap should be steady)
Special I - Higher levels mean more coverage, less energy, more effective.
(gap should be wide)
Special II - More damage, more area of effect, longer recharge, higher recharge, higher effectiveness. (gap should be wide)
Weapons
-Lasers : Higher levels mean LESS distance, higher damage, higher energy cost, longer recharge. (gap should be small)
-Cannons : Higher levels mean more distance, higher damage, higher energy cost, longer recharge, slower (more massed) traveling, MORE ammo. (gap should be low at first but gap becomes wide after level 6)
-Missles : Higher levels mean more distance, higher damage, higher energy cost, longer recharge, slower moving, more ammo. (gap should be small)
-Torpedos : Higher levels mean LESS distance, MUCH higher damage, MUCH higher energy cost, MUCH longer recharge, MUCH slower, and a TON more ammo. (gap should be wide after level 5)
-Mines : Higher levels mean higher area of effect, higher damage, higher energy cost, longer recharge, more accurate (for homing mines), more ammo. (gap should be wide)
-Fighters : Higher levels mean more range, faster fighters, more damage per fighter, higher energy cost, MUCH longer recharge, more durable fighters (takes more hits), LESS fighters. (gap should be wide)
Armor :
Standard - Higher levels mean more resistant to all types of damage, repairs slower, more HP. (gap should be wide after level 5)
Reflective - Higher levels mean more resistant to beams, and is less resistant to all other types of damage, especially torpedos. less HP, repairs quicker than either ablative or standard. (gap should be wide after level 5)
Ablative - Higher levels mean more resistant against projectles, and the same resistence to all other types of damage. It also gains higher HP of all the armors, but the tradeoff is that this armor repairs 3x slower than standard. (gap should be altogether wide)
Organic Armor - Higher levels mean more resistence to all type of damage excluding flux or EMP, which remains the same. Organic additionally repairs faster for every higher level, and also gains more HP, however has the lowest Hp of all the armors. (gap should be wide after level level 5)
Shields :
Refelctive - Higher levels mean more HP, less energy to recharge, slowest regen rate. Drains only by damage dealt to the shield. Reflective has lower HP than active and is more resistent than standard armor in all types of damage except for beam. (small gaps)
Active - Higher levels mean more HP, MUCH more energy to recharge, fastest regen rate. Drains constantly. Active has higher HP than active, and is more resistant than reflective against all types of damage, but even weaker against beams. (wider gaps)
Reserves :
APG (auxillary power generator) Higher levels mean more energy, faster regen rates.
ASG (axuillary shield generator) Higher levels means more reinforcement to shields, and more power drain, and higher HP overall.
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This should balence it out...I also made a post somewhere on whats moddable to what, but as I stated earlier modifing should be for an alternative style, not for a better style.
Tell me what you think...
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2005-07-24 04:48 ]
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-07-24 05:55
Ent that and my idea are technically identical except in respect to weapons. I stuck to weapons remaining level-based because it allows you to fit your ship according to your intended target size.
My only problem with your suggestion is it is inflexible. My favourite part of 482 was that a good player could jump in almost any ship, mod it and be scary. A large part of it was that dessy/cruisers had enough weapons (especially torps) to manage this. That stopped with the release of 483, and while I'm not for Uber dread-killing destroyers, I think flexibility is now the key. You can't now have a weapon that owns both small and big ships, you need to fit your ship for the target (or that's how it should work). Perhaps it could be worked out, but locking say dessy to lvl0 could mean you can't peform at all against anything bigger than a dessy. Or likewise, you'll be in a dread and completely unable to hit a dessy with your lvl10 weapons.
Really your and my ideas aren't all that different. Mine you can upgrade weapons and yours you can't. Like I said my only worry with yours is the flexibility. But if that was worked out, it's good. Even better in that it's simpler. Certainly in either case it will be a lot easier to balance it out than currently, since you're just changing hull modifiers.
[ This Message was edited by: Lonectzn on 2005-07-24 05:56 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-07-24 06:45
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My only problem with your suggestion is it is inflexible. My favourite part of 482 was that a good player could jump in almost any ship, mod it and be scary.
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Thats the problem.
IMO, the only any ship should be scarey would be by the person behind it.
Effectively, there was a time when it was more of how good the player was and not how powerful the ship is.
Simply enough, it should be that no matter how you mod it, it would never be better or worse if used the right way
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A large part of it was that dessy/cruisers had enough weapons (especially torps) to manage this. That stopped with the release of 483, and while I'm not for Uber dread-killing destroyers, I think flexibility is now the key.
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The way small ships should be designed is, that their best used in numbers. One small Destroyer could have the power to destroy a dreadnought over a period of time however with a few more dessies, it should be alot easier.
My idea was ultimately more focused on one thing : teamwork.
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You can't now have a weapon that owns both small and big ships, you need to fit your ship for the target (or that's how it should work). Perhaps it could be worked out, but locking say dessy to lvl0 could mean you can't peform at all against anything bigger than a dessy. Or likewise, you'll be in a dread and completely unable to hit a dessy with your lvl10 weapons.
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Im glad you got the point then, the design of my idea was that big ships cant hit little ships without them getting close, and little ships cant do enough damage without support.
This way, this stops be all own all trends, you have to use teamwork, along with piloting skills to win.
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Really your and my ideas aren't all that different. Mine you can upgrade weapons and yours you can't. Like I said my only worry with yours is the flexibility. But if that was worked out, it's good. Even better in that it's simpler. Certainly in either case it will be a lot easier to balance it out than currently, since you're just changing hull modifiers.
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Thats essentially all it is, your ideas, without the flexibility. I removed the flexibility (in terms of upgrades) because then you would have small ships that could be potentially too powerful for their size, and there would be no point in getting larger ones.
For the most part, I don't see the logic : If a destroyer, a SINGLE destroyer, has the power to destroy a Dreadnought, by itself, simply by mashing the spacebar...then..why ever get a Dread.
While you idea allows more flexibility, the shortcomming is that it can potentially make balencing worse off.
My idea however, restricts it so that any ship can be useful, but no one ship alone could beat anything unless its given enough time, along with enough skill to do so.
A Dessie with say, level 3 weapons, can do pretty good damage on its own to anything Dessie or lower. To Cruisers, it does damage over time, paired with a second destroyer its pretty much slaughter, because the cruiser can't handle both.
Put those 2 dessies against a Dread, and its going to have a HARD time hitting those ships, while the Dessies slowly beat down the Dread. If the Dread got lucky and landed a hit, it would do some damage. Pair in another cruiser or Dessie, and the Dread is outclassed and outmatched.
Thus, it should work out dandy, but only with teamwork. Since thats what DS is mostly, if not all about...id head for that.
-Ent
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-07-24 10:10
I see where you're going Ent, and I do think teamwork is important to factor in. However there's a fine line between teamwork and a numbers game. You don't want it to be a matter of the side with most wins.
Put too much reliance on a 'balanced' fleet and you risk being individually useless against anything. That sorta works against skill based gameplay, towards ship based gameplay.
That's my concern. I'm not saying that's what you're proposing, but it's something to watch out for with all the talk about 'teamwork'. Nothing could be worse than "They've got 5 and we've got 2 therefore we're screwed". Skilled players should still be able to defend against a superior (in numbers) force. Gotta remember most of the time there's not similar numbers on each faction, in fact it's rather regularly extremely skewed.
All I'm saying is, that's where flexibility comes in.
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Binks
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 469
| Posted: 2005-07-24 10:30
I like Lonectzn's idea, only modding weapons would be nice...but I also love ent's idea...I miss the old days when modding was "Should I grab sabots or stick with cannons...cannons can hit but sabots can dmg...hmmm..." rather than "come on ship...orbit...okay...click click click click click...everything's upgraded, time to pwn everyone!" the only problem would come with cash...what could we do with it? However that could be solved easily with the current insurance system...make it so taking out a ship costs full price, but you get back say 99% going into gate (95%?) and 90% after death...bingo, you need cash to get better ships...I'm all for either of these ideas...
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-07-24 22:47
Either way it requires across the board rebalancing and tweaks to module levels and ships. Not a quick fix, but I don't think there is one.
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-07-25 12:16
chick chick waah... chickka chikka chick chick waahhh!
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-07-25 21:47
Please excuse Drafell.
He was speaking in his native tongue, trying to say "Lone is... So brilliantly brilliant, great idea man."
We would appreciate it if you could stick with Australian English, or failing that, Latin.
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2005-07-27 06:43
Hehe, no responses is generally a good thing. It means no-one can think of anything to shoot Ent's or my ideas down. Still, if you think it's a good idea, it's best to actually show it, or it's unlikely it'll even get seen.
Bad ideas and whinges generally get the most posts, sadly decent ones need bumping.
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