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My account of my time with the K'luth... |
Tikki
Cadet
Raven Warriors
Joined: March 10, 2005
Posts: 132
From: Canuckistan
|  Posted: 2005-07-24 15:53
Beams need love.
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Anubis132
Vice Admiral
Joined: September 21, 2002
Posts: 65
From: San Jose
| Posted: 2005-07-24 15:59
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On 2005-07-24 11:11, PeaNuT{Recruiting} wrote:
I think when k'luth cloak bullets shud go thru them, so u cant manually shoot them with ctrl spaces
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No.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-07-24 15:59
The thing I heard whining about (and denoucned) was saying how much ships suck, in balence terms.
I did not say however, whining about bugs. Bugs are there, and even in recent threads about yelling about stopping the whining, I listed that the damned stupid odditys needed to be fixed.
However...
The thing I heard so often was the yelling about how the ships themselves were nerfed, how there was too little energy, and how you couldent stand up to otherships...
THATS what you whined about.
-Ent
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Anubis132
Vice Admiral
Joined: September 21, 2002
Posts: 65
From: San Jose
| Posted: 2005-07-24 16:03
Btw, good job Ent for taking the time to explore the other side's view.
Also, cloaking supp ships would be very very bad. Killing modded supps is hard enough already with their armor and a dreadnaught blocking your shot (and shooting you, no doubt). A cloaked supply could be ANYWHERE, especially with the 400 gu range of a lvl 10 reload. That would just be stupid.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2005-07-24 17:18
The power of Kluth ships themselves was never in question. Who was complaining about that? Kluth ships do great damage when upgraded.
The problems are all what you mentioned in your original post.
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Seamus Rooke
Vice Admiral
Joined: July 02, 2005
Posts: 21
| Posted: 2005-07-25 01:19
A good read Enterprise, I'd like to comment on two things in the thread.
On the cloak it is a bad idea in my opinion to have a phased type cloak (IE: things go right through it)
anything fired at a target and has mass is a projectile.
I like your idea about the beacons, it seems that people strip weapons off their ships so they can have more beacons. I'm really not sure the logic behind that.
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Ramius
Fleet Admiral
Agents
Joined: January 12, 2002
Posts: 894
From: Ramius
| Posted: 2005-07-25 01:23
honestly, cloaked repairing isnt that big a deal
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-07-25 02:18
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On 2005-07-24 16:03, Anubis132(imbacksortof) wrote:
Also, cloaking supp ships would be very very bad. Killing modded supps is hard enough already with their armor and a dreadnaught blocking your shot (and shooting you, no doubt). A cloaked supply could be ANYWHERE, especially with the 400 gu range of a lvl 10 reload. That would just be stupid.
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Kluth supplys have been able to cloak since...god knows how long?
Additionally, the K'luth Supplys current armor is one full armor.
Thats weaker than most scouts.
Additionally, I dont think its terribly horrible to let them have that, as I've found most things can kill a Kluth supply in one alpha.
Also...
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On the cloak it is a bad idea in my opinion to have a phased type cloak (IE: things go right through it)
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I certainly did not suggest that, and additionally, that would be a bad idea. Cloak makes ships invisible, not invincible.
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Ragglock
Marshal
BIOnics Industry Syndicate
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1955
From: Denmark
| Posted: 2005-07-25 03:34
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On the cloak it is a bad idea in my opinion to have a phased type cloak (IE: things go right through it)
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well got me thinking now for an new idiear
reflective organic armor option
funcitons like regular organic armor but when cloaked also reflects disruptor or all beams.
would solve some of problems that kluth have
1. recapture kluth DEF 3 planets fallen into enemy hands
2. recapture planets that have gone roque
3. make it possible to actuly position kluth ships so to intercept incomming bomb raids without beeing hit them self by 13 kluth tech def 3 in the rear while doing so.
in both of these cases trying to drop on a planet with an kluth ship is sertain death no matter what what ship you flying.
also would fix that most kluth ships actuly have 10 % -50 % dammage from attacking other ships or ff before then even getting to decloake.
this opting would solve some major problems without having to tuch the weapons .
option 2:
elf tec organic
function as regular organic armor uncloaked
but when cloaked and hit by beams sucks the energy from the beams hitting it into the power reactor pool in the ship.
not this do not drain the attacking ship for power other than what they allready release for rechargeing the beam.
so to speak just turns in the reciving amount of energi into own energy
this could do that there is no need to ajust the power usage on the kluth ships and keep in mind its only beam stikes that gives this efect so they have to be realy close to actuly be usefull.
[small][ This Message was edited by: Ragglock on 2005-07-25 03:46 ][/small]
[ This Message was edited by: Ragglock on 2005-07-25 03:49 ]
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Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2005-07-25 03:44
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Kluth supplys have been able to cloak since...god knows how long?
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There has always been eccm to counter the cloak b4, u may as well say 'Kluth ships have been able to fire while cloaked since...god knows how long?'
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Additionally, the K'luth Supplys current armor is one full armor.
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Ugto might have 4 armor but only 1 on each arc.. so the same alpha can kill a ugto supply
And icc supply has no armor, so unless u manage to redirect shield really quick, it can also die to the same alpha
A demonstration can be arranged if u so wish...you will have to be the supply
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Thats weaker than most scouts.
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All faction supply are weaker than some scouts.. an ead cant kill a modded icc scout in 1 alpha (while the scout is moving ofcourse)
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Additionally, I dont think its terribly horrible to let them have that, as I've found most things can kill a Kluth supply in one alpha.
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It is.. as the sups can keep combats alive forever. with the upgraded drones on the sup a kluth dred, escorted by few cloaked unltimate workers, can fight several dreds without putting the sups in danger as the enemy can only target the dred.
However...imo kluth stations and sups should be able to repair themselves (not others) while cloaked.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-07-25 04:18
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There has always been eccm to counter the cloak b4, u may as well say 'Kluth ships have been able to fire while cloaked since...god knows how long?
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Reloads however don't do damage. 
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Ugto might have 4 armor but only 1 on each arc.. so the same alpha can kill a ugto supply
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Wrong. UGTO supply can rotate in order to compensate damage on another arc. Additionally, Standard Armor is stronger than organic.
I have flown in UGTO Supplys often, I have rarely ever seen it be killed in one alpha.
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And icc supply has no armor, so unless u manage to redirect shield really quick, it can also die to the same alpha
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However. Shields can also be rotated to reflect more damage, not to say the least that Shields are much more resistant to damage than armor.
A demonstration can be arranged if u so wish...you will have to be the supply
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All faction supply are weaker than some scouts.. an ead cant kill a modded icc scout in 1 alpha (while the scout is moving ofcourse)
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Wrong again...noticed by the above statement, human supplys are again, more more durable than K'luth.
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It is.. as the sups can keep combats alive forever. with the upgraded drones on the sup a kluth dred, escorted by few cloaked unltimate workers, can fight several dreds without putting the sups in danger as the enemy can only target the dred.
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Good, let them have this advantage as supplys, me even going back to UGTO later would actually like to see cloaked supplys.
Additionally, with ships armor as weak as it is on Kluth Dreads, a few reloads could help them.
Then again with beacons spamming, pinging exploits, you could probably find the supply and kill it anywho...
I have a proposal, which I fully give credit to Shigernafy for.
Reloads should take power, uncloaked, a Kluth supply can run reloads fine without much energy loss.
However if your cloaked, and you start using your reloads, you will start seeing some noticable energy drain. Sitting still, a supply would even find some moderate drain.
Since Stations have such high reserves, this shouldent effect them much.
The goal here is that a Kluth CAN supply while cloaked however supply too long and youll lose enough energy to uncloak.
Additionally, repair yourself while cloaked? You can just spot the drones and manual target, additionally since it would only take one alpha to kill it, whats the use? Free kills? I don't think so...
Here I see 2 options.
You can either A.) Allow cloaking with reloading. Or B.) Give it more armor, not much, just SOME more. It is beyond incredibly weak, it cannot be remotely compared to human supplys.
And before anyone yells I don't know, I've been flying human for the past 2 1/2 years, and additionally, since this patch came out. Human supplys CAN take quite a bit of damage, and through the countless engagements with one, I could resist quite a bit of damage.
Sorry Nim, your argument is void...
-Ent
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Nim *
Chief Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: September 05, 2004
Posts: 295
| Posted: 2005-07-25 04:53
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Quote:
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On 2005-07-25 04:18, Enterprise wrote:
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There has always been eccm to counter the cloak b4, u may as well say 'Kluth ships have been able to fire while cloaked since...god knows how long?
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Reloads however don't do damage.
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its still lethal as it can prevent other ships from getting killed which imo makes it a weapon.
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Ugto might have 4 armor but only 1 on each arc.. so the same alpha can kill a ugto supply
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Wrong. UGTO supply can rotate in order to compensate damage on another arc. Additionally, Standard Armor is stronger than organic.
I have flown in UGTO Supplys often, I have rarely ever seen it be killed in one alpha.
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No they cant, i agree the standard is armor is a bit stronger than organic, but if u point jump a sup it will have no chance (UNLESS, it e jumps immediately)
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And icc supply has no armor, so unless u manage to redirect shield really quick, it can also die to the same alpha
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However. Shields can also be rotated to reflect more damage, not to say the least that Shields are much more resistant to damage than armor.
A demonstration can be arranged if u so wish...you will have to be the supply
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As i said, u gotta be very quick to react and redirect shields. In most cases the sups die as its flown by new players.
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All faction supply are weaker than some scouts.. an ead cant kill a modded icc scout in 1 alpha (while the scout is moving ofcourse)
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Wrong again...noticed by the above statement, human supplys are again, more more durable than K'luth.
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So..ur saying u can kill an icc scout in ur ead? I'd like to c that happen (i'm willing to fly a icc scout to prove u wrong)
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It is.. as the sups can keep combats alive forever. with the upgraded drones on the sup a kluth dred, escorted by few cloaked unltimate workers, can fight several dreds without putting the sups in danger as the enemy can only target the dred.
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Good, let them have this advantage as supplys, me even going back to UGTO later would actually like to see cloaked supplys.
Additionally, with ships armor as weak as it is on Kluth Dreads, a few reloads could help them.
Then again with beacons spamming, pinging exploits, you could probably find the supply and kill it anywho...
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I personally dont, as i'd like to see any ships that assists a battle significantly. Even giving kluth sups 4 organic armor (1 on each arc) is way better than kluth being able to repair friendly ships whicle being cloaked.
And kluth compensate for there weak armor with strong weapons...
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Additionally, repair yourself while cloaked? You can just spot the drones and manual target, additionally since it would only take one alpha to kill it, whats the use? Free kills? I don't think so...
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If anyone is dumb enough to sit still and reapr near an enemy fleet, they deserve to die.
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Sorry Nim, your argument is void...
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My argument is perfectly valid,. If u strongly beleive that, can u fly a icc/ugto supply and let me alpha u in a kluth dred?
You might wanna think about coming back to ugto and try getting alphaed by an enemy dred in a sup rather than hiding behind a station/dred and thinking u can take an alpha 
Also bear in mind kluth alpha r lot stronger compared to icc/ugto. So the sups have no chance what so ever if a siphon/mandi p jumps them.
[ This Message was edited by: Nim {C?} on 2005-07-25 05:10 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-07-25 05:29
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its still lethal as it can prevent other ships from getting killed which imo makes it a weapon.
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I doubt seriously one Kluth supply is going to keep it from getting killed...
Additionally, if all the Kluth flew supplys for one combat ship, woulden't that be kinda pointless?
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No they cant, i agree the standard is armor is a bit stronger than organic, but if u point jump a sup it will have no chance (UNLESS, it e jumps immediately)
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Thats point jumping, im talking in general combat. If you get point jumped and your not moving, then duh, common sense is your gonna hurt.
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As i said, u gotta be very quick to react and redirect shields. In most cases the sups die as its flown by new players.
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These are new players, and often enough by the time you get in your second supply, you should have done known about that.
However that is pilot error, not a ship flaw.
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So..ur saying u can kill an icc scout in ur ead? I'd like to c that happen (i'm willing to fly a icc scout to prove u wrong)
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Did I say that? This post has nothing to do with scouts, I used them as an example...
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I personally dont, as i'd like to see any ships that assists a battle significantly. Even giving kluth sups 4 organic armor (1 on each arc) is way better than kluth being able to repair friendly ships whicle being cloaked.
And kluth compensate for there weak armor with strong weapons...
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Given of course the target isn't wearing shields and reflective armor when going against K'luth, sure their weapons are strong.
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If anyone is dumb enough to sit still and reapr near an enemy fleet, they deserve to die.
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Unfortunately even with a moving Kluth supply, its dead anyways.
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My argument is perfectly valid,. If u strongly beleive that, can u fly a icc/ugto supply and let me alpha u in a kluth dred?
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Don't need to, I have flown from personal experience, that UGTO/ICC supplys have far outlived K'luth ones.
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You might wanna think about coming back to ugto and try getting alphaed by an enemy dred in a sup rather than hiding behind a station/dred and thinking u can take an alpha
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Do you believe that the entire time I've played UGTO I havent been hit by a dread? I have. It hurts, but I have almost always survived a single alpha from a K'luth dread, the only times I haven't, is when I was dumb enough to stand still.
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Also bear in mind kluth alpha r lot stronger compared to icc/ugto. So the sups have no chance what so ever if a siphon/mandi p jumps them.
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*points above*
So I think the points here are :
A.. Reloads dont repair Kluth ships fast enough to resist any damage.
B.. There would need to be 5 Kluth supplys for every one Kluth Dread or Cruiser for it to be close to invincible as you put it.
C. Without Cloak, Kluth supplys are weak enough to be picked off by a single QST (which indeed, even with level ten armor, this should NOT be happening.
D.. Cloak gives it an advantage, since its not a combative ship, it poses no threat as combat.
Pretty much, the only way cloaked reloads should be a threat is if...
Reloads were 5x as efficent, Kluth had 50 players on at once, if it had more weapons than a cruiser, or if cloak could let you fire.
Again , there is no argument here...
An additional point to note...
Since you have to decloak in order to supply, basically, you give away your friendlys position. Basically, the only way you could use a supply, is if you camped a friendly planet and have combat ships go there to supply (which kinda nulls the whole point unless your a station)
In order of a ship to supply in combat it at least needs to be able to survive.
Since additionally, Kluth cloaking is for stealth, wouldent the supply be as well?
Decloaking to supply also present other problems as well, it takes a full six seconds to decloak, in this time, it can be shot to hell and back before it can reload.
Do I see a delay on reloading for UGTO/ICC? No.
Not only that, if a supply wants to cloak, it has to wait a full 4-5 secpmds. which in that time, it can be picked off.
Bear that in mind...
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2005-07-25 05:35 ]
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2005-07-25 08:46
fix the cloak and beams and im reasonably sure there wont be much of a problem anymore.
although, id prefer the game not go back to the days where assault dreadnaughts mysteriously and suddenly exploded with no obvious place to return fire to, which is sort of where its leaning to.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2005-07-25 10:34
Quote:
| the sups can keep combats alive forever. with the upgraded drones on the sup a kluth dred, escorted by few cloaked unltimate workers, can fight several dreds without putting the sups in danger as the enemy can only target the dred |
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You do know you can see reload drones right? It's a dead giveaway that a supply is nearby, and you might even see them leave/return to their point of origin which would be the supply ship. And since beacons STILL haven't been changed (whatever happened to being changed immediately as per the dev chat?), just spam your beacons like you do and you'll find it.
I'm not sure why this was ever changed. Same for Kluth engineers. Why was it changed so the drones don't work while cloaked?
I do like the idea of using energy though. For all supply ships.
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