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[Suggestion]: How to fix Darkspace in Three Stages. |
Dom243
Fleet Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2002
Posts: 104
|  Posted: 2005-09-23 02:24
why keep ECCM pinging?
its totally exploited and glitched dude
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Arcanum {C?}
Cadet
Joined: June 25, 2005
Posts: 222
| Posted: 2005-09-23 07:11
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On 2005-09-22 23:14, Diabo|ik wrote:
Agreed, but if the respective slots proposition goes through, we'll need to change some basic layouts which are ASKING to get modded. I mean, I don't want to see ONE cannon or missile on a K'luth assault ship ( manadible, scale, claw ). Not taking this into consideration would still leave the K'luth out in the cold and considering our few modding options, I'd even go as far as saying that missiles/torps and cannons/smlbeams should still be swappable for K'luth ( if no changes are made to their layouts, until a proper solution is applied in 1484 ). |
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Agreed. But this does not only apply to K'luth ships. There are presently many ship designs which lack a "meaningful" layout. This is to say that many ships will have two cannons, two torpedoes, two missiles and two beams, for example. This kind of ship (unmodded) is useless. It lacks the critical firepower mass on ANY weapon type of be of significance in any battle.
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| I think the Ganglia should keep it's cruiser class armor and be given ONE reload instead of more plates. It's not the armor that's making this ship unflyable, it's his longevity VS firepower issue. For a ship like this with not many weapons ( think 1480 ganglia, without reloads, without 6 cl2ks, but pea shooters instead, and youll get the idea of how badly this ship got nerfed, I almost forgot about it's very existence since 1483 came live... ) it isn't even an option for K'luth pilots to fly, our cruisers do a better job than what it's supposed to do. But that's a touchy topic... and I know the other factions won't agree... |
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The Ganglia was supposed to be the K'luth "specialty" dread in this version. Every faction has a workhorse dread, an assault dread, a command dread, a carrier dread and a "specialty" dread.
Actually, that's not true. K'luth have no carrier dread.
Anyhow, the specialty dread for ICC is the bomber dread, and for UGTO it is the Agincourt. Now, some have stated that the Ganglia is the best stealh-bomber in the game, and thus, that makes it as much of a specialty dread as any other ship. Granted, the Ganglia is a very good bomber. But if you're going to make bombing the domain of the ICC, why give K'luth as their specialty a bombing dread also, but with vastly fewer bombs? Secondly, many feel that the Ganglia is a form of abuse, because it is possible for K'luth to bomb a planet without ever taking damage. I could say the same about Agincourts, but I won't go there. The fact is, the Ganglia should not have an uber-stealth-bombing function. The ganglia needs to have a different specialty. But that's just my opinion, which is why this issue did not find its way into my recommendations.
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| AM torps don't need an increase in damage. For a fact, torps need a fix, a speed fix. The only usefull torps ( that can actually hit something below a dread ) are the fusions... and they still lack some speed |
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I personally think that all torpedoes should have similar range and speed. Perhaps a difference of +/- 10%, but that's it. Damage-wise, AM torpedoes are fine. What needs to be revamped is the reload rate (needs to be faster) and the ammo count. At level 10, Fusion torpedoes have 35 ammo. At level 10, AM torpedoes have 15.
If AM torpedoes had even higher damage, and essentially ALWAYS hit their target, this would be fine. But given the situation now, that AM torpedoes not only miss more often, but do less damage over time, and have a shorter range, this requires reconsideration. The ammo count should be minimum 25 for AM torpedoes, 30 for Proton Torpedoes and 35 for Fusions.
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Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2005-09-23 07:47
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On 2005-09-22 14:34, Arcanum {C?} wrote:
K'luth
Scale is the K'luth assault-class cruiser. It should have, like all other assault cruisers, 3 double plates of armour fore, left and right. Rear armour 1 plate only.
Increase standard disruptor and psi cannon damage
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Err, assault class cruisers have 3 front, 2 left, 2 right and 1 after armor.
Im not sure about the disruptor damage, standard chemical lasers almost dont do any damage either, and i think that if standard disruptor does more damage, Assault Disruptor damage might go down a little, as it does an amazing amount of damage.
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Arcanum {C?}
Cadet
Joined: June 25, 2005
Posts: 222
| Posted: 2005-09-23 09:09
Quote:
| Err, assault class cruisers have 3 front, 2 left, 2 right and 1 after armor. |
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Scales have *1* plate of frontal armour. Organic, to boot, which means that less than 1 alpha from a dread takes it to hull. Or one round of ICC ASMs from their fighters.
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| Im not sure about the disruptor damage, standard chemical lasers almost dont do any damage either, and i think that if standard disruptor does more damage, Assault Disruptor damage might go down a little, as it does an amazing amount of damage. |
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The DA is fine. It's the HCL which is completely out of whack. If it were restored to its original design (highest damage up close with aggressive damage dissipation with range), both sets of heavy beams would be fine.
Disruptors are supposed to be the mainstay of a K'luth ship, whereas CLs are not supposed to be the primary weapon of human factions. This is not to say that there is NO need to improve the CLs. But disruptors need to do distinctly more damage, just as EADs should do distinctly more damage at close range than Siphons.
[ This Message was edited by: Arcanum {C?} on 2005-09-23 09:10 ]
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DEATH ANGEL
Cadet
Joined: July 01, 2003
Posts: 144
From: EL CAJON, CA
| Posted: 2005-09-23 11:38
very good post lets see if we can get rid of all these bugs in the game
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Acyllius
Cadet
Joined: October 09, 2002
Posts: 48
From: Abilene, Tx
| Posted: 2005-09-23 12:48
- Order of fighter superiority - UGTO/KLuth/ICC.
- Order of beam superiority - Kluth/ UGTO & ICC.
- Order of cannons superiority - UGTO/Kluth/ICC.
- Order of missile superiority - ICC/Kluth/UGTO
- Order of torpedo superiority - Kluth/UGTO/ICC.
I am new back to the game after a long absence, so I cant say much about the mechanics of the new systems, however, this I can comment on. I don't have any bias to one fleet or the other but I did notice this...
ICC are the masters of missles. Granted. UGTO are the fighter masters. The rest is debatable to me.... HOWEVER. ICC is ranked LAST in 5 of the 4 catagories with this layout.
ICC: 1 First, 4 Third
UGTO: 2 First, 2 Seconds, 1 Third
Kluth: 2 First, 3 Seconds, 0 Thirds.
Now granted ICC could be considered the masters of defense with their Pulse and shields. *shrug* I will stop there. Just wanted to point that out in case anyone felt like changing it.
Not like Faustus said he was going to do it or anything...
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-09-23 13:49
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I personally think that all torpedoes should have similar range and speed. Perhaps a difference of +/- 10%, but that's it. Damage-wise, AM torpedoes are fine. What needs to be revamped is the reload rate (needs to be faster) and the ammo count. At level 10, Fusion torpedoes have 35 ammo. At level 10, AM torpedoes have 15.
If AM torpedoes had even higher damage, and essentially ALWAYS hit their target, this would be fine. But given the situation now, that AM torpedoes not only miss more often, but do less damage over time, and have a shorter range, this requires reconsideration. The ammo count should be minimum 25 for AM torpedoes, 30 for Proton Torpedoes and 35 for Fusions.
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Eh...
No.
You see, F torps have a significantly lower damage on direct hit than AM torps. Not to mention F torps have NO splash damage. If you miss with an F torp, bybye damage chance.
If you miss with an AM torp, det it, and boom, you do nearly identicle damage to a direct hit with the splash damage. They do take a long time to reload, and they do have less ammo....
But it more than makes up for their hit.
You're still trying to use kluth for a long battle. Kluth are hit and run, they aren't meant to duke it out. You're not meant to have 35 AM torps, you're meant to have a low ammo count and high damage with few alpha's. Which is what you have (Mandable anyone?).
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-09-23 14:36
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On 2005-09-23 12:48, Acyllius wrote:
- Order of fighter superiority - UGTO/KLuth/ICC.
- Order of beam superiority - Kluth/ UGTO & ICC.
- Order of cannons superiority - UGTO/Kluth/ICC.
- Order of missile superiority - ICC/Kluth/UGTO
- Order of torpedo superiority - Kluth/UGTO/ICC.
ICC: 1 First, 4 Third
UGTO: 2 First, 2 Seconds, 1 Third
Kluth: 2 First, 3 Seconds, 0 Thirds.
Now granted ICC could be considered the masters of defense with their Pulse and shields. *shrug* I will stop there. Just wanted to point that out in case anyone felt like changing it.
Not like Faustus said he was going to do it or anything...
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The figures I provided are in terms of damage.
For reload (time):
- Order of fighter superiority - UGTO/ICC/Kluth
- Order of beam superiority - ICC/ UGTO / Kluth
- Order of cannons superiority - ICC/UGTO/Kluth.
- Order of missile superiority - ICC/Kluth/UGTO
- Order of torpedo superiority - ICC/UGTO/Kluth
For speed (travel):
- Order of cannons superiority - ICC/UGTO/Kluth.
- Order of missile superiority - ICC/Kluth/UGTO .
- Order of torpedo superiority - ICC/UGTO/Kluth.
For defence (armor):
-Order of Defence superiority - ICC/UGTO/Kluth.
For energy :
-Order of Energy superiority - UGTO/ICC/Kluth.
For stealth :
-Order of Stealth superiority - Kluth/UGTO/ICC
For acceleration/speed :
-Order of Engines - Kluth/ICC/UGTO
For repair (time) -
-Order of Repair speeds - Kluth/ICC & UGTO
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Now the way this is set up, is that UGTO and Kluth do more damage to ICC, but the ICC has better defence, faster weapons, and faster reload times.
If anyone is curious, ill set this point system up to compare -(when there are two faction of equal, it counts as only 1 point.)
- 1st = 3 points.
- 2nd = 2 points.
- 3rd = 1 point.
UGTO : 34 points.
ICC : 34 points.
Kluth : 33 points.
Now, as we can see, by taking many of the aspects of gameplay into account, we can see that every faction has its own strengths and weaknesses, rest assured that ICC will get no shaft.
-Ent
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Arcanum {C?}
Cadet
Joined: June 25, 2005
Posts: 222
| Posted: 2005-09-23 14:51
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On 2005-09-23 13:49, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
You see, F torps have a significantly lower damage on direct hit than AM torps. |
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On the order of magnitude of 20-25%. This has been tested repeatedly. This does not at all make up for the fact that AM torpedoes miss 80% of the time. AM torpedo splash radius exceeds Fusion torpedo splash radius by approximately 10gu. (Unless you want to count the kind of damage which will take a scout's armour down 1%)
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| Not to mention F torps have NO splash damage. If you miss with an F torp, bybye damage chance. |
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Untrue. 75% of my kills are done by manually detonating Fusion torpedoes.
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| If you miss with an AM torp, det it, and boom, you do nearly identicle damage to a direct hit with the splash damage. They do take a long time to reload, and they do have less ammo....
But it more than makes up for their hit. |
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Let's review this logically. AM torpedoes do 20-25% more damage than fusion torpedoes. Their reload time is 75-100% longer. The *meaningful* increase in splash radius is 10gu. The ammo count is 15 for AM torpedoes, 35 for Fusion torpedoes. AM torpedoes travel half as slow as fusion torpedoes, with half the effective range.
No matter how I run the numbers, and do it in practice, fusion torpedoes hit harder.
EVEN if I employ a quick hit and run tactic. Why? In the same time that it takes me to do two alphas with AM torpedoes, I've done 4 with fusions. And I know for a fact that this delivers significantly more damage.
Quote:
| You're still trying to use kluth for a long battle. Kluth are hit and run, they aren't meant to duke it out. You're not meant to have 35 AM torps, you're meant to have a low ammo count and high damage with few alpha's. Which is what you have (Mandable anyone?). |
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Have you seen me fight, Jack? I mean, really observed? I uncloak, deliver my alpha, and recloak, or jump out, depending on beacons. I don't hang around to "duke it out." And yet invariably, when I am using fusion torpedoes, I end up doing almost twice as much damage as I do with AM torpedoes.
And yet, no matter how I fight, I have realized that AM torpedoes cause me to deal much less damage. And not for lack of trying. I have tried everything from aiming for direct hits to manual detonation, to manual-target/manual-detonation, to a combination of manual detonation and aiming for direct hits.
I don't want 35 uber AM torpedoes. I want AM torpedoes which can either hit properly and more often and recharge in a decent amount of time, or deal more damage in a wider splash radius with at least 10 more ammo.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-09-23 16:16
Your numbers are false.
It's not 10 gu more, and it's not just 25% more damage.
You also said you sounded like you wanted 35 am torps, with fast tracking, and better damage...
Not either one of them, it sounded like you wanted them all.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2005-09-23 16:17 ]
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Arcanum {C?}
Cadet
Joined: June 25, 2005
Posts: 222
| Posted: 2005-09-23 18:27
Jack and I spent some time on his server, testing torpedo damage. Granted, we conducted this in the pristine environment of stationary vehicles with no obstructions or distractions in our fight. But still, numbers are numbers. Our findings are as follows:
- AM torpedoes have a splash radius of 60gu, whereas a Fusion Torpedo has a splash radius of 20gu.
- The *effective* splash radius - where the torpedo does meaningful damage to a ship, is closer to 25-30gu for AM torpedoes and 10-15gu for Fusion Torpedoes.
- AM torpedoes do approximately twice as much on impact damage as Fusion torpedoes, but also take twice as long to reload.
- There was a marked difference in speed between Fusion torpedoes and AM torpedoes (Fusion torpedoes were faster).
My purpose in this exercise is to achieve balance for all factions. So, while my original numbers about torpedo damage were not correct, and Jack's statement that fusion torpedoes have no splash damage is equally incorrect, I would say that the slow travelling speed of AM torpedoes is the main issue here.
It seems that even the large splash radius of the AM torpedo does not make up for the fact that anything below a dreadnought class can completely dodge the AM torpedo.
I would suggest increasing its travelling speed and increasing the ammo count at L10 to 20.
Damage, splash radius, recycle rate can all remain the same.
Thanks for doing this test, Jack.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-09-23 19:50
Yeh, it was a little closer for F torps (about 5 gu from the armour rings), but the AM torps were a little slow at L10. Gotta see the speed of P torps, maybe there is some relation, but the AM torps do need a bit of a speed boost.
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Diabo|ik
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2002
Posts: 327
From: Quebec, Canada
| Posted: 2005-09-24 02:59
About the Ganglia, it's old specialty was very good for a ship like this, it's only that it had too much staying power ( 2 reloads ) and back then going through the hull was longer, giving more "efficiency" to the reloads compared to now. I'd say 1 1480 reload = 2 1483 reloads. Giving at least ONE more reload to every supply with on every faction would be the way to go...
I suggest to bring back the old design, a few cannons ( ruptors, significantly ( 33% ) less as any other K'luth dread ), 6 DAs a few torps and a few fighters. Add 2 or 1 reloads and the ganglia can be usefull again for supporting stations and other harder hitting dreads ( as I used to hang with a Siphon back then for incredible hit&run strikes capabilities ), or bombing runs ( but without carrying any bombs itself... IMPORTANT ).
I emphasize here that the DAs are primary weapons for this ship, all other weapons have a lower or equal count, say 6 ruptors, 4 torps and 2 fighters.
This ship would have enough energy to go a long time but still not enough healing power and firepower to "duke it out" with the other factions dreads as it used to in 1480 all alone. I don't want an uber ship, just an original design for an original role ( primarily to support Stations and assault dreads, offensive is the K'luth keyword after-all, it would only make sense for this faction to have some special tactics for hit&run hard hitting strikes, the gagnlia may not run out of energy, but the assault dread certainly will, and fast, so the Ganglia can cloak, go repair his buddy or go support another unit in another hit&run strike ). Keep the paper thin armor but put 2 layers on front ONLY ( remember 2 organics = 1.33 armor/shield and it would help SOMEWHAT to support the assault ships and K'luths overall "head on" tactics ). Or remove the 4 plates on each side and swap for 2 full arc plates. Make it "special" but NOT uber.
[ This Message was edited by: Diabo|ik on 2005-09-24 03:11 ]
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Arcanum {C?}
Cadet
Joined: June 25, 2005
Posts: 222
| Posted: 2005-09-24 13:05
I agree. Ganglia should have its specialty restored, but with consdieration for being not too strong.
Since Ganglias are the only K'luth ship able to use Shock Missiles, perhaps the Ganglia could be a K'luth missile boat? But with many more shock missiles than it has currently, and many fewer short-range weapons.
Also, I agree that dreads and stations (all factions) need to have their staying power boosted, because right now, those two ship classes are not living up to their potential.
However, special attention needs to be paid to K'luth dreads, and especially K'luth stations. Because these two ship classes move so slowly, the cloak is nearly useless, because of how slowly they move. And a K'luth station is easier to kill than a human dreadnought, which should not be the case.
But once again, I'm not asking for something uber. Just balanced.
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Diabo|ik
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2002
Posts: 327
From: Quebec, Canada
| Posted: 2005-09-24 21:51
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On 2005-09-24 13:05, Arcanum {C?} wrote:
I agree. Ganglia should have its specialty restored, but with consdieration for being not too strong.
Since Ganglias are the only K'luth ship able to use Shock Missiles, perhaps the Ganglia could be a K'luth missile boat? But with many more shock missiles than it has currently, and many fewer short-range weapons.
Also, I agree that dreads and stations (all factions) need to have their staying power boosted, because right now, those two ship classes are not living up to their potential.
However, special attention needs to be paid to K'luth dreads, and especially K'luth stations. Because these two ship classes move so slowly, the cloak is nearly useless, because of how slowly they move. And a K'luth station is easier to kill than a human dreadnought, which should not be the case.
But once again, I'm not asking for something uber. Just balanced.
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Missiles are ICC's specialty as far as anyone is concerned, maybe the ganglia could be the only ship cloaked that can reload without having to uncloak? ( no self reloading while cloaked, must uncloak to reload self ) Just an idea. And also I still emphasize on DAs being their primayry guns, for reasons mentionend below.
And plz keep cloaked ships drones CLOAKED ( if possible ), thanks  . ( if this becomes THE special feature of the ganglia, all other ships won't be able to reload while cloaked or the drones won't be cloaked if they can reload while cloaked ).
Alternative = Make it an ALL DAs/fighters "carrier-attack" ship ( with more firepower than any other factions carrier dreads but a lot less fighters and only DAs ( station/dread support, as DAs cant hit anything below dessies right now ).
[ This Message was edited by: Diabo|ik on 2005-09-24 21:57 ]
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