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Development Update 10/4/2005... |
Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
|  Posted: 2005-10-06 06:13
Shipyards I don't want to comment on; wormholes, while lovely and all, have reduced the strategery of the game quite a bit and I wouldn't really miss their departure. Or make them inter-system only (limit of 100k gu or something) and it wouldn't much matter then.
Though then you miss the fun of a fleet jumping in tandem. 
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DOM700 [-IMO-]
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 26, 2001
Posts: 3175
From: Eckental, Germany, Sol-System
| Posted: 2005-10-06 08:43
Btw....what is homegate supposed to be anyway, why not make a planet with a shipyard and a safezone (unable to revolt, unable to change buildings)
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Kaos=KG=
Cadet
Joined: May 17, 2005
Posts: 23
From: Klendathu Prime
| Posted: 2005-10-06 09:39
Hail Klen Guard!
I dont post much...rarely even but I do read the forums regularly and well this topic of the removing of SY's and WH's got my attention as well. I would be full on against the removal of both. Its not about realism strategey or the like. For me its about game play ability. You remove these 2 objects from the game for the sake of some of the reasons proposed (more fleet engagements, less ability to run solo etc etc.) and you force issues into a player that may not work for that individual at any given time. As an example log in at 3am cent as Kluth with no SY's and WH's your immediately forced to wait who knows how long until more players show up or you have to spend who knows how long to catch up to the fleet???
To me neither of these options as a result of the removal of both these objects would be acceptable. Plz dont get me wrong I do feel there is some kinda imbalance as it is now and actually have been thinking about the idea for some time as to what if anything could be changed and well since it seems ideas have writhing out of this thread Ill add some suggestions of my own.
1. SY's - The thing that has allways bugged me about them....how do some of the ships that come out of them do that....I mean jeeeeez alot are bigger than alot of planets totally hokey if you ask me. A SY should be just that a yard in SPACE that builds ships! Not on a planet. This thing should be huge able to be strategically placed within a system so as to be not so easy a target. As I understand it platforms are the wave of the future in DS and well I believe thats what the SY should be a platform for building ships!
Max limit per faction sounds good to me....or one per CONTROLLED system...wouldnt matter to me thats what the devs do Logistics.
2. WH - Similar to the SY's in that they should be able to be built in such a way as to be strategic to the side that controls it. Max range...limited in number per faction...again wouldnt matter to me DEVZ are Kewl!
Maybe Im reaching on these suggestions but I think both would be a really nice addition to the game without losing 2 vitally important objects. Who knows maybe it might even pay to be a midshipman in MV. What better way to get those recon points that locating those pesky WH's in your system that seem to let the enemy in at will. Or tagging that enemy SY in deep space for termination.
=KG= Thugg =CO=
'Im just in it for the food'
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Dwarden
Admiral
CHIMERA
Joined: June 07, 2001
Posts: 1072
From: Czech Republic
| Posted: 2005-10-06 10:52
Well i will try be short and simple:
ShipYards don't need to be removed ... they just simple need to be more "key system" based (like not each system / planet can hold SY (ie needed resource / size / amount of planets controlled within system etc) ...
You don't need remove WormHoles ... just decrease theirs ranges (2-4 times)
this + newly implemented ABILITY for players to construct STATIC STABLE GATES will return the "fights" for controlling gates and around gates ...
because wormhole devices become more tactical use "within star system" usage instead of "across universe" as for that will be "GATES" ...
i hope all understood and agree ...
p.s. let say there will be two types of gates "ancient/undestructable(linking key systems(similar to natural wormholes or tachyon streams) and buildable/destructable"
[ This Message was edited by: Dwarden on 2005-10-06 10:55 ]
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2005-10-06 11:26
I agree with Dwarden on not removing Shipyards.
The current incarnation works in enabling players to get to the front lines more quickly.
The biggest issue comes with Wormholes 'breaking' the game tactically.
There is no need to remove them, just a simple decrease in range would be suufficient.
One of the original keys to the 1.480 gameplay was that each system was important to hold - we had real front lines. Much like ground warfare where you push slowly backwards and forwards, fortifyng your defenses and assisting in repelling invaders.
The Wormhole as it stands bypasses all this. It enables people to make one great leap deep behind the enemy lines without any planning or effort and without a support fleet to help them.
A lot of the fun in the game used to be these fleet operations which are no longer required.
The sheer range of the WH device makes any map design pointless - you can travel anywhere at any time. The range is completely out of scale with the explored DS universe. You can lay seige to the enemy homesystem and dissapear before they can do anything to stop you.
I have argued since the WH device was originally intorduced that it range has always been too great. The MV design concept which |2eason came up with was never created or intended to account for such instantaneous methods of travel over that vast a range.
I would suggest changing the MAX range on a WHD to 600k for stations. This still gives instantaneous inter-system transport, but doesnt break the idea of front lines. The Wormhole Cruiser could be changed to a 300k device, which stil lgives it a lot of viable uses as a rapid method of transportation from place to place.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-10-06 12:13
I agree with what Drafell said.
Removing WH's would be no great loss. Instead, maybe if the HMA creates a portal that all ships could enter (slip stream if you will). A mini wormhole perhaps, but works just like a normal jump drive, without wasting, the ships that enter it, jump drive charge (the station would be the only one to lose its charge).
This would allow quick movment in systems and between systems (if you have a station handy). It's also a compensation for the wormhole being removed (Although no real compensation is neccisary (some will whine hoever)).
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Diabo|ik
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2002
Posts: 327
From: Quebec, Canada
| Posted: 2005-10-06 12:28
I say bring back the old 3 way MV design or connect ALL systems with jumpgates and re-arrange the MV accordingly. We don't need a WH type device, tho I wouldn't mind to see a "HMA" that could warp a station through "slipstream" ( going through anything solid, gates included and can travel much farther on the same class of ship ( half the radius of the MV seems a fair jump for a station ) only available on stations at first IOW, no ICC "jump cruiser" with a dumbed down slipstream HMA ).
BUT and it's a big but, I don't EVER want to see something that can move a whole fleet in the blink of an eye from one side of the MV to the other. So limit the numbers of ship that can follow the station, or limit the type that CAN follow the station.
Ships equipped with at least 1 reload only for example could follow the station into slipstream, the others would have to do it the old 1480 way to the battle scene using jump gates OR jump by themselves and following the station/supplies to it's next refuel stop the way we did to reach delta pavonis and the other gateless system in the 1480's MV
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-10-06 14:13
Quote:
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On 2005-10-06 05:12, JRE wrote:
I agree limit the SY and make the resourses shared between planets a LOT less.
AND make home gate capable of spawning ALL ships
[ This Message was edited by: JRE on 2005-10-06 05:15 ]
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Why limit it when you can just remove it. Im sorry, but I hate shipyards and wormholes alike with a vengence, and do make the game needlessly frustrating. When im attacking an enemy system, I don't want them to be able to simply run to a planet and mash Ctrl+Y and escape prestige loss (you know who you are -.-). Or an entire fleet be capable of comming in and camping to no end.
What good would limiting Shipyards be if you could simply scrap one somewhere else and have a new one up in an enemy system within 4 minutes...
Lets also take into account this Dwarden, Drafell, Jacky.
Why nerf it? If it doesn't need to be removed, it also, doesn't need to be kept. If its no great loss, why have it uselessly lieing around? Shipyards, maybe even one per faction, sure. I am not, not however for the build one in every system idea.
As for wormholes, yes they tactically deterr the game. We have HMAs for inter-system, and Wormholes were only for getting from system to system. It completely makes it worthless if it does less than design, so remove them. Beef up the HMA maybe.
I have no idea why everyone is in favor of nerfing things instead of simply removing them. Its a bit like nerfing a banana so that its no longer nutritious but keeping it anyways because its edible.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2005-10-06 15:05 ]
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spatula
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: May 28, 2005
Posts: 41
From: 192.168.1.1
| Posted: 2005-10-06 14:35
why is it that "F" asks for a compeling argument and after all's been said on the side to remove wh and sy he doesnt reply?
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GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
| Posted: 2005-10-06 14:39
that makes me happy, the removal of shipyards and wormholes heh the shipyards were a joke anyways 
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Feralwulf
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 24, 2004
Posts: 1729
From: sitting somewhere drinking beer
| Posted: 2005-10-06 15:33
I agree with shortening the range of Worm Hole Devices, and would agree with (if possible) limiting Shipyards to Terran Planets only. Other than that I'd leave things as they are regarding gates, WHs, and SYs. I was here before SYs and WHs, I've played since they came into being. It makes no difference to me.
Although....without a SY, or WH....Don't EVER ask me to come to a battle in say R33(5 jumps and 4 Gates from UGTO Home gate) or even further O.o
Nah.....MV is to big now for no Wormholes or Shipyards
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Diabo|ik
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2002
Posts: 327
From: Quebec, Canada
| Posted: 2005-10-06 15:47
Quote:
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On 2005-10-06 15:33, Feralwulf wrote:
I agree with shortening the range of Worm Hole Devices, and would agree with (if possible) limiting Shipyards to Terran Planets only. Other than that I'd leave things as they are regarding gates, WHs, and SYs. I was here before SYs and WHs, I've played since they came into being. It makes no difference to me.
Although....without a SY, or WH....Don't EVER ask me to come to a battle in say R33(5 jumps and 4 Gates from UGTO Home gate) or even further O.o
Nah.....MV is to big now for no Wormholes or Shipyards
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"I was here before SYs and WHs, I've played since they came into being. It makes no difference to me."
Sarcasm mode on : Yeah... I mean it doesnt make any difference to me since before SYs and WHs I was only playing the FA server... yeah...
"Although....without a SY, or WH....Don't EVER ask me to come to a battle in say R33(5 jumps and 4 Gates from UGTO Home gate) or even further O.o
Nah.....MV is to big now for no Wormholes or Shipyards"
Further sarcasm : You played 1480 yet you never had to travel 5 jumps to the battle? Almost EVERY battle I had in the 1480 MV had me jumping from home to 5-6 systems away and sometimes further. Oh sorry... my bad... you couldn't possibly know... cause you were in the FA server...
Sarcasm mode off
It appears you can't possibly grasp as to the infinite reasons that have been explicited ever since the implementation of those gameplay killers cause you never ACTUALLY experienced the game prior to it... You never experienced the minefields, the traps and tricks at gates, how hard it was to actually take over an enemy system with a big fleet and how hard it was also to DEFEND said system. Everything was hard, challenging, tactical, big time strategy was involved, in other words, it was fun. Right now it's just, spawn, shoot, die, yawn, rinse, repeat. I can have that playing 10 year old Quake... thank you very much.
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Ham&Swiss
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 12, 2004
Posts: 418
From: 10$ to whoever finds me
| Posted: 2005-10-06 17:42
OK, so I don't play ever in MV, but i know what shipyard do and what wh do and such...here's a question to think about first. Why take away somehing thats there to help people play the game and cut down time for getting somewhere, or responces to a okanet attack? Shipyards (even though it's very sad to those who run and hide in the sy, like said in ent's post) are preety useful...i mean, say you want to go to a system across the mv, but your's at the home gate...how long would that take you? A couple of minutes, maybe not as long..but then if your planet is being attacked, instead oof poping out infront of the planet, or near the battle by a planet, you have to travel all that distance. Plus, by the time you get there, it could be all over. WH's...used them once...and i can tell u, it was alot quicker then jumping that big distance into another system.
Now, i'm not syaing to keep them altogether, but limit one or two sy's in a system, and if ther's an enemy within 3000 gu of the planet, then you can't spawn...and WH cut their distance and the time that they're open...say like 30 seconds and the WH device only starts regenerating after it closes...cutting back on hit and run...
On a side note however, whoever took todays screenshot, cheers to you!
-MD
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Jar Jar Binks
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 556
| Posted: 2005-10-06 18:20
Quote:
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On 2005-10-06 03:48, JRE wrote:
I just friggin loved that idea....waiting on big F's reply with a CC in hand..........
O and Jar Jar how about Faustes make a huge invinsible ship that its sole mission is to kill you the second you begin play? Not very realistic, but you dont like realism.
[ This Message was edited by: JRE on 2005-10-06 03:57 ]
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i never said i didnt like realism. but having that as a argument to remove something when u can have that argument about the entire game pisses me off. and theres ALOT thats more unrealistic then the shipyards, wich is probably the MOST realistic thing in the game.
the only thing that ruins it is that if u log off in space u can undock at any shipyard u want. THAT needs fixing. but removal of the shipyard all together is pretty over the top and shows for a complete lack of willingnes to find a solution.
like this: if u log off in space/go LD/whatever. the game automatically searches for the closest SY, be it in another system of whatever. and then if u dont log back on within 5 minutes, the ship u had gets DOCKED at that SY, so u wont be able to undock at any other SY unless that is destroyed, and then ONLY at the SY thats closest to the one that got destroyed.
its just that simple.
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-Smokey-
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 22, 2004
Posts: 784
From: Florida
| Posted: 2005-10-06 18:33
i got idea about jumpgate, shipyards, wh's.. each system has a jump gate to spawn at not to travel to and from nuetral system=nobody can spawn at them and whoever owns the system will get to use, so u take out shipyards and just use them.And dont have jumpgates connected say ugto and icc space since now all systems connected pretty easy for a bomber to just travel thru and level planets fast.each home system got homegate still so in home systems it doesnt matter wich team controls it but the faction whos home systems that is can spawn out of it so enemies attacking the system cant spawn there and maybe having to travel form a neighboring systems in order to get there.
dat it
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