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Torpedos |
Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
|  Posted: 2006-03-23 19:45
Ent, just wondering your thoughts on having only certain classes able to swap for torps - EG, Assault class cruisers & dreadnaughts (EG: Assault Cruiser & Torp Cruiser [which should be default torps by name...] and Assault Dread & EAD). I think that being assault ships they should be able to be configured for the need, be it long range or short range. Missile ships = missiles, no matter what, only alternative is a few beams for point defense & some cannons for the stray mini ship. No class ship EXCEPT close combat (Combat dessy, Heavy Cruiser, AC, Combat Dread etc, etc...) should be able to mount torpedos IMO - they should hit hard, hit fast, have low ammo counts and above all, TRACK! They should be the elite weapons that you use to punch home your point, but are only effective if you have position...
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2006-03-23 20:05
missed the memo that stated that either all of the ships had been finished, that all of the modding code was implemented, or that the resource coding was done.
People, don't rip. Beta is not release. It seeps out in stages. From what I can see they are still working on how the single resource system effects everything else in the game. Mods, ships, structures, everything has to be changed. U can't build a ship requiring metals now. So that has to all be done. Looks like alot of the changes are due to the tinkering w/ the resource things. I would highly doubt that all of the ship configs are settled, let alone what devices will be swapped out for what. So settle down and offer advice. Critique is fine, but be civil. Be a part of helping DS be what it can be. A better suited thread would be something like " I think the Assault Dread should be configed as blah blah blah", or " I think Missles should be swappable w/ blah blah blah". Give Teal and F something to maybe look at and use. Remember, Teal and everyone else that is staff are volunteers. Encourgement would go a long way. Ideas and positive discussion is what will improve DS.
But that's MY opinion.
And FTR, Kluth = Beams and torps, and I think modding should be by ship design, not device.
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Malorn
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2003
Posts: 42
From: USA Eastern Time
| Posted: 2006-03-23 21:41
Ya a better mix of weapons would be very enjoyable, also very realistic. However, in the case of missiles, you really need large numbers of them to have any effect on an enemy target. Especially now that PD is so omni-present on most vessels.
Also, on smaller ships with less PD you still can't get an advantage, since even destroyers can out-turn missiles. I'm not saying that’s a bad thing, but it does make missiles less effective, except against large slow-moving targets. Cruise Missiles, however, are completely useless against almost everything, since you can't fire them in large numbers. Sure, it sounds good to be able to shoot from miles away, but I've never, and I mean never, seen a cruise missile hit it's target, the PD always kills it.
Now, I have a theory on how to fix that, involving some of the same ideas behind cloud bombing. But I haven't had time to test it in-game. But in theory, if you set your speed equal to the cruise missiles, you could create a vast cloud of them that would overcome PD defenses. 30 cruise missiles in one cloud should allow enough of them to beach the PD defenses. As long as the enemy doesn't see them coming, of course.
Anyway, back to the topic. Mixed weapons would balance the ships a bit more, allowing most ships to at least be of some use, even in areas outside their main purpose. But, we don't want to overdo this. Having to much of a mix would make every ship the same, which would suck.
Also, as to the torp vs missile thing, I say have them be completely separate, since missiles seem to suck a lot more @ss then torps, at the moment. Personally, I say we should remove missiles from the short-range ships, for now. The idea was sound, but anything less then 6 missile banks won't even annoy the enemy. Thus the missiles on destroyers and cruisers are wasted, except in the case of missile cruisers.
As to fixing missiles, I'm really not sure. On one hand, if we want the missile ships to be useful on their own, I'd increase the ammo. Since, when testing them, I can never manage to finish anybody off, I knock them to 40% hull or so, then run out of missiles. On larger UGTO ships, I could only strip off their armor before needing ammo.
In all cases I've never had to pull back due to hull damage, only ammo depletion. Thus, increasing ammo might make the missile ship too powerful, if it is intended in a support role to other ships. Partnered with a couple combat vessels, I think the missile cruiser would be damn near unkillable, while inflicting decent damage to the enemy.
(All this does not count the lag effects, which I have used to kill an uncounted number of ships. Never try flying near a planet while dodging missiles, it never works well. Clusters are even better. But while I love to watch a station die of lag caused by my missiles, it not only seems a bit unfair, but it also give no pres.)
Anyway as you can see, I have spent way to long in missile ships.
[ This Message was edited by: Malorn on 2006-03-23 21:44 ]
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GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
| Posted: 2006-03-24 01:10
and like me for someone who Recently got promoted to 2nd Rear Admiral and just got Silver Combat, im still stuck flying the combat destroyer, which sucks due to its 2 missle tubes, Replace them with Torpedo Tubes and make them Full so me and some n00bs can actually hit something rather than getting pwned by the overpowered UGTO, i say overpowered because of 2 things
1. Compared to the Assault Cruiser Vs. UGTO Torpedo Cruiser: Same Load out on Torpedos but! The Torpedo Cruiser has 2 EMP cannons and 3 Partical Cannons and 5 Lasers PLUS a Flux wave and 2 Flux Cannons whereas the ICC Assault Cruiser Has 8 Lasers and 6 Torpedos DO YOU SEE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?! if you dont yer freaking blind! Oh and lets see the Assault Dreadnaught Vs. The EAD
Assault Dreadnaught has: 9 Torpedo Tubes 2 Fighters, 8 Laser batterys 4 Heavy Laser Batterys, 8 Partical/Railguns and an Ion Cannon
Elite Assault Dreadnaught Has: 12 Torpedo Tubes, Flux Wave, 4 Flux Cannons, 6 STL's, 5 HCL's, 4 Fighter bays, 1 QST slot, 4 Partical Cannons and 4 EMP cannons: Result: OVERPOWERED DREADNAUGHT OF THE UGTO! FIX THIS NOW OR SO HELP ME GOD DS IS GONNA LOSE PLAYERS!
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Crim
Fleet Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 16, 2003
Posts: 1336
| Posted: 2006-03-24 02:43
Quote:
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On 2006-03-24 01:10, GothThug{C?} wrote:
and like me for someone who Recently got promoted to 2nd Rear Admiral and just got Silver Combat, im still stuck flying the combat destroyer, which sucks due to its 2 missle tubes, Replace them with Torpedo Tubes and make them Full so me and some n00bs can actually hit something rather than getting pwned by the overpowered UGTO, i say overpowered because of 2 things
1. Compared to the Assault Cruiser Vs. UGTO Torpedo Cruiser: Same Load out on Torpedos but! The Torpedo Cruiser has 2 EMP cannons and 3 Partical Cannons and 5 Lasers PLUS a Flux wave and 2 Flux Cannons whereas the ICC Assault Cruiser Has 8 Lasers and 6 Torpedos DO YOU SEE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?! if you dont yer freaking blind! Oh and lets see the Assault Dreadnaught Vs. The EAD
Assault Dreadnaught has: 9 Torpedo Tubes 2 Fighters, 8 Laser batterys 4 Heavy Laser Batterys, 8 Partical/Railguns and an Ion Cannon
Elite Assault Dreadnaught Has: 12 Torpedo Tubes, Flux Wave, 4 Flux Cannons, 6 STL's, 5 HCL's, 4 Fighter bays, 1 QST slot, 4 Partical Cannons and 4 EMP cannons: Result: OVERPOWERED DREADNAUGHT OF THE UGTO! FIX THIS NOW OR SO HELP ME GOD DS IS GONNA LOSE PLAYERS!
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Learn your ships.
UGTO are ment to have the stronger fire power, ugto always will, but we also have shields, and the AD has a far better energy management at the moment.
The ACvsTC, the TC LOOKS like a better ship, but to anyone who's experianced with the AC, they'd walk all over the TC.
EADvsAD, EAD will always have overwhelming firepower compared to the AD, but the AD also has better defense and energy capabilities.
[ This Message was edited by: Crimson {R33} on 2006-03-24 09:12 ]
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GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
| Posted: 2006-03-24 12:26
i dont care, the point is simple, the ICC need the same amount of Firepower lol. and crimson dont hate me cause im flying uggie 
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Crim
Fleet Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 16, 2003
Posts: 1336
| Posted: 2006-03-24 13:39
Goth, you hop factions so much, that you realy dont understand any of the factions ships. ICC will never be able to match the firepower of UGTO or K'luth, but neither K'luth or UGTO will match the defense of the ICC. Neither ICC or UGTO will match the K'luths ability of stealth. Get it threw your head.
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doda *EP5 no longer exception...*
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2005
Posts: 1012
From: happy land
| Posted: 2006-03-24 15:07
luths beat ugto in firepower on beta.
Dont trust me try alpha striking any ship with a mandy
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2006-03-24 18:25
Quote:
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On 2006-03-24 12:26, GothThug{C?} wrote:
i dont care, the point is simple, the ICC need the same amount of Firepower lol.
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SO, on top of the shields, and armor, and pulse, U think ICC should have the same firepower of a UGTO counterpart?
Um. First of all, why have different factions, or even different ships. Just 1 big ship with 10 engines, 10 ecm/eccm, 50 torps, 50 lasers, everyone gets pulse,flux and hell, why not throw in an all around cloak to boot. The premise you give is just simply flawed. We need the different factions to be different, and in some cases radically so. You do not factor in the shields that any UGTO or Kluth pilot must penetrate, and then the armor that must be penetrated, before we even get to peel a paint fleck from your hull for even a single point from the whole engagement. I bet you can peel through an EAD's armor, faster than that EAD can eat through your shields (WHICH YOU CAN FEED POWER INSTANTLY TOO TO COUNTER SOME OF THE DAMAGE!), and your armor. Wanna try? U get an EAD, I'll get an AD and we'll do some experimenting.
And for what it is worth, I am not a good or even fair ICC pilot.
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Maskerade
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 21, 2002
Posts: 638
From: Canada
| Posted: 2006-03-24 19:03
Keep it civil people. Don't like the idea argue the point, refain from personal attacks.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2006-03-24 20:14
Someone's gone and pestered me for about an hour on MSN for me to post in this thread... I have no idea why they asked me. But here goes.
It's simple really. ICC have shields, which they can rotate to any part of their ship to counter the damage. ANY part. Ontop of this, you have a fall-back of armour on almost every arc on most ships. This gives you an EXCELENT defence capability. Not to mention that whilst you're repairing your small amounts of armour, your shields are recharging at an insane rate, meaning you're back in the fight long before anyone else.
UGTO on the other hand CANNOT rotate their armour like shields, NEITHER can they recharge those armour plates at the same rate as shields. They also have to stay on the field a lot longer due to the way their weapons work (damage over time). All this boils down to is that UGTO NEED their extra armour. And what's more is that you can concenrate fire on one arc of the UGTO ship and it'll be dead, having to retreat to repair for a long time (it takes a while to repair all that armour). On ICC, if a UGTO pilot concentrates fire on your one arc, all you have to do is rotate, and you instantly have 4 times the HP on one arc due to that rotating.
To counter this all, ICC have been given low-damage close quater weapons along with long ranged setups to give them that extra bit of defence. They don't have a lot of ships that are equiped for close range, and those that are do have the firepower to take a UGTO/K'luth ship on at close range, no one is uber by any means. UGTO have been given medium damaging weapons over a medium range. But the longer the battle goes on, the more damage the UGTO ship should do, because they're geared towards damage over time (no ammo restrictions).
Kluth can cloak to avoid damage, and have fast repairing armour and an AHR. They can completly avoid all fire, so don't need that much armour. They also have weapons that do an insane amount of damage compaired to the human counter-parts.
So lets get this right.
K'luth can cloak to avoid fire.
ICC have shields to compensate with the low firepower and can basicly have 4x the defence on any-one side of any other factions ships.
UGTO have what to compensate for all of this? They have a lot of armour. This may seem uber, but you take into consideration that the ships take longer to accelerate and that it takes longer for them to repair, and that they can't rotate their armour to one arc to give them 4x the defence... You see why they need a lot of armour now?
The EAD has more weapons because the ICC hase more defence. It's a simple design. I'm an experienced EAD pilot, when I tested it against an in-experienced AD pilot (Doran), he almost oblitorated me. Thankfully, after a while, the EAD seemed to be pulling back. The EAD however, still does not have the right amount of offence power that it should. So your "EAD IS UBAR" statement, is just plane out of wack. You have done ZERO testing, and it is evident in your posts.
Now do you understand all of this?
Now to the second point.
Torpedos on MISSILE SHIPS? WHY?
Why would a long range ship be fitted with torpedo's? Why would a short range ship be fitted with missiles?
The whole reason this is being fixed is so that ships aren't being used for what they wheren't designed for. Missile Dreads won't have torpedos giving them insane damage, along with all the other silly configs. Ships are MEANT to have those configurations for a reason. So they're used like that...
I hope this post was worth my time because I was nagged a freaking bunch to make a post.
- Jack
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2006-03-24 20:24 ]
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Maskerade
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 21, 2002
Posts: 638
From: Canada
| Posted: 2006-03-24 22:32
exactly Jack, but dammit, I wanted to get them there on about page 5 
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2006-03-24 22:58
Owned
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2006-03-24 23:07
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On 2006-03-24 22:32, Maskerade {C?} wrote:
exactly Jack, but dammit, I wanted to get them there on about page 5
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at least we've gotten somewhere.
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GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
| Posted: 2006-03-24 23:59
No Keep the Missles on the dreadnaughts like the MD and the MC, just let the combat destroyer have Torpedos. its supposed to be COMBAT therefore you have to actually MOVE some to hit the target, you completely misunderstood what i said.
and crimson i was ICC for over a Freaking Year so dont tell me i've been jumping factions cause i have not and when i came back i was kluth for 3 months so think before you speak please THANX 
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