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is 484's new modding system really nessessary? |
Tikki
Cadet
Raven Warriors
Joined: March 10, 2005
Posts: 132
From: Canuckistan
|  Posted: 2007-01-15 19:23
Where I'm sure people want to know about the future of torps on their missle boats, I'm more concerned with the missles on my missle boats. Will they still be useless for hitting anything other than a station or dread? PD aside, that is. I always did find it annoying to shoot at a smaller, but almost stationary craft and watch my missles just loop around them ineffectively.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2007-01-15 19:42
Missiles will most probably get some sort of turn speed/speed modifier with the level, so that they turn faster/go faster when smaller ships fire them (giving them more of a chance to hit smaller targets). Ofcourse, damage will also get scaled.
But I'm no longer a dev so...
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Abandoned Ships[AS]
Cadet
Joined: December 21, 2004
Posts: 46
| Posted: 2007-02-03 17:03
STOP FIGHTING OK. I agree with both sides yes if we take away most of the moding, things will be more balanced. Yes that if we don't restrict modding then there would be ships that aren't used. You guys should make a compromise try and agree with each other on some things. Like say we made a dread with 12 qstorps we want to restrict it, but you want everything to be the same. I HAVE NEWS FOR BOTH SIDES... COMPROMISE OR SHUTUP TAKE AWAY 6 QSTORPS FROM THAT DREAD THAT WAY THINGS WILL BE FAIR TO BOTH IT IS HALF OF WHAT WE WANT AND HALF OF WHAT YOU WANT TRY AND NEGOCIATE ON THAT MANNER. Make 1/2 of the missle dread's weapons be locked only on missle and leave the other half of it interchangable with other weapons types that way everybody gets 1/2 of what they want thus making it favorable to both sides DO SO NOW. OR WE MAKE IT LIKE THIS; MISSLE DREADS REQUIRE 1/2 OF THE BALLISTIC WEAPONS TO BE MISSLES. IF YOU CAN'T AGREE ON ONE THING YOU WANTING NO CHANGE AN WE WANTING EVERYTHING CHANGED THEN DO THINGS THAT WOULD BE FAIR TO BOTH SIDES NOW BE QUIET AND AGREE ON THIS MUCH OR YOU GUYS AREN'T CIVILIZED ADULTS LIKE I THOUGHT YOU WERE.
[ This Message was edited by: Yamakaze on 2007-02-03 17:10 ]
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Leonide
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 1553
From: Newport News, Virginia
| Posted: 2007-02-03 17:55
oh, some yelling to stop the yelling... that makes a LOT of sense...
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Lyedtau
Admiral
Joined: January 18, 2007
Posts: 147
From: Dev land
| Posted: 2007-02-03 21:19
Quote:
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On 2007-02-03 17:03, Yamakaze wrote:
STOP FIGHTING OK. I agree with both sides yes if we take away most of the moding, things will be more balanced. Yes that if we don't restrict modding then there would be ships that aren't used. You guys should make a compromise try and agree with each other on some things. Like say we made a dread with 12 qstorps we want to restrict it, but you want everything to be the same. I HAVE NEWS FOR BOTH SIDES... COMPROMISE OR SHUTUP TAKE AWAY 6 QSTORPS FROM THAT DREAD THAT WAY THINGS WILL BE FAIR TO BOTH IT IS HALF OF WHAT WE WANT AND HALF OF WHAT YOU WANT TRY AND NEGOCIATE ON THAT MANNER. Make 1/2 of the missle dread's weapons be locked only on missle and leave the other half of it interchangable with other weapons types that way everybody gets 1/2 of what they want thus making it favorable to both sides DO SO NOW. OR WE MAKE IT LIKE THIS; MISSLE DREADS REQUIRE 1/2 OF THE BALLISTIC WEAPONS TO BE MISSLES. IF YOU CAN'T AGREE ON ONE THING YOU WANTING NO CHANGE AN WE WANTING EVERYTHING CHANGED THEN DO THINGS THAT WOULD BE FAIR TO BOTH SIDES NOW BE QUIET AND AGREE ON THIS MUCH OR YOU GUYS AREN'T CIVILIZED ADULTS LIKE I THOUGHT YOU WERE.
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Where to start...
No one was fighting, mearly discussing, which is healthy, as it starts ideas rolling. The reason all weapons will be locked out, and only swapable to some other weapons (ie, missiles are swapable to other missiles only (AR > IT for example)), is because even with half slots modable, the whole point of a Missile Dread, is to be missile based, not to have torpedoes coming out the wazzoo.
At the same time as locking out these, we aim to not introduce more ships (we'll probably be removing a few actually), but to make the existing ones useful, and fullfill a roll. For example, right now, hardly anyone bothers with using some ships, as certain ships modified to a different spec, are far more effective in that roll. This is not intended, and not how DarkSpace is meant to be played.
For example:
An Assault Dread is meant to be a close range, mostly torpedo-based platform, doing more damage than any other ICC dread up close (and even in some cases, medium range). However, modified correctly, a Missile Dread can outdamage almost any ship in the game, including the ICC Assault Dread. This isn't how the ship was intended to be used, and because of this oversite, the ship is overpowered.
It's all very well enabling players to making useless combinations, but what's the point in allowing people to make useless combinations? Why not just take a look at the existing ships, and fit them into a roll that works for them, whilst locking out modification of ships to the extreme (ie: Escort Destroyers, Missile Dreads/Cruisers, etc).
If you want to use a ship that hits hard, and is designed for close combat, you pick that ship. You should not have to pick a long range ship, and take out its long range based weapons and replace them with short range, to find out it's actually more powerful than the intended short-range hard-hitting ship.
This change (explained in this thread for the umpteenth time it seems), is aimed to benefit you guys. We're not trying to remove your ability to modify ships to your will. We want to make it so you shouldn't have to modify them in the first place.
The reason we might be locking out moding, is to make balancing the game far easier.
For example:
If there is a problem with some of the heavier hitting K'luth ships doing too much damage, we can tone down the K'luth only weapons, safe in the knowledge that this will not effect any other class. This goes for the human races too.
Another example:
Lets say the ICC Assault Dread is vastly overpowered compaired to the UGTO Elite Assault Dread, and the K'luth Siphon. We know it cannot be the Chemical Lasers, as the EAD and AD have near the same amount, and if it were the case, the EAD should be on par with the overpoweredness of the AD. Instead, we can pinpoint it to the Fusion Torpedoes, since they are the only difference on the ship compaired to the EAD. So we tweak them, or their level multiplier.
This allows us to fine tune weapons, ships, and other, far more than we were before, because as it is now, changing one weapon, could mean throwing the balance of the game completely.
Example #509:
If AM torps are specificly made for 'K'luth only' in mind, and we turn up the damage far more than the other race's torpedoes, and ICC start using them, it completely throws the balance. ICC are a defencive faction, and problems occure when they start getting weapons which are designed for a very offencive race.
So, again. This modding/upgrading system is there to help you, and balance the game. We want balanced, useful ships that are ready to be used straight out of the box, or at least, with as little moding as possible. We also want to allow some modification room, so as to allow for a feel of customization to your own ship, but at the same time, not allow those customizations to become overpowered (ie, swapping chemical lasers for pulse beams for more defence, or chemical lasers for flux beams, for more systems damage).
This system is aimed at that.
- Lyed
[ This Message was edited by: Lyedtau on 2007-02-03 21:28 ]
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Mersenne Twister
Fleet Admiral
Joined: May 11, 2003
Posts: 1161
From: Sector C Test Labs and Contol Facilities
| Posted: 2007-02-04 10:03
10 points for use of "wazzoo"
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I wouldn't screw with it if I were you. The doctor already holds you in poor favor. Messing with this might really fry his shorts.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2007-02-04 10:11
lyedtau wins one(1) whole internet.
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Smartin
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 04, 2005
Posts: 1107
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2007-02-04 13:55
Quote:
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On 2007-02-03 17:03, Yamakaze wrote:
STOP FIGHTING OK. I agree with both sides yes if we take away most of the moding, things will be more balanced. Yes that if we don't restrict modding then there would be ships that aren't used. You guys should make a compromise try and agree with each other on some things. Like say we made a dread with 12 qstorps we want to restrict it, but you want everything to be the same. I HAVE NEWS FOR BOTH SIDES... COMPROMISE OR SHUTUP TAKE AWAY 6 QSTORPS FROM THAT DREAD THAT WAY THINGS WILL BE FAIR TO BOTH IT IS HALF OF WHAT WE WANT AND HALF OF WHAT YOU WANT TRY AND NEGOCIATE ON THAT MANNER. Make 1/2 of the missle dread's weapons be locked only on missle and leave the other half of it interchangable with other weapons types that way everybody gets 1/2 of what they want thus making it favorable to both sides DO SO NOW. OR WE MAKE IT LIKE THIS; MISSLE DREADS REQUIRE 1/2 OF THE BALLISTIC WEAPONS TO BE MISSLES. IF YOU CAN'T AGREE ON ONE THING YOU WANTING NO CHANGE AN WE WANTING EVERYTHING CHANGED THEN DO THINGS THAT WOULD BE FAIR TO BOTH SIDES NOW BE QUIET AND AGREE ON THIS MUCH OR YOU GUYS AREN'T CIVILIZED ADULTS LIKE I THOUGHT YOU WERE.
[ This Message was edited by: Yamakaze on 2007-02-03 17:10 ]
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what? Huh?
LOOK AT ALL MY CAPS GIVE ME SOME ATTENTION!
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big john
Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: August 29, 2002
Posts: 55
| Posted: 2007-02-20 16:48
hmmm, very interesting. I totally understand the idea behind the Balancing, and I think it is a good one. Making everything faction only, would give alot more ability to balance the factions dynamically. The best thing (IMO) about DS used to be the modding, or customisation, of your ship. This version is already less flexible than previous versions, and I think the thinking behind dedicated ships to suit certain roles is nice in theory but could potentially be less fun for the creative player. In the olden days you would see an enemy and wonder, "How is this ship modded? The torp cruiser might be full of mines, is that why that supply is following him around? is he a long range, or short range fighter?" it made the game really fun, trying weird and often insane combinations of weapons and specials. It would be really easy to make each ship and arcade style Fixed ship (ie: here is a Sensor Scout, it finds things, or you can take out your "Anti-Sensor" Scout, it hides things) and before you say it, I know you are not thinking to nerf modding so completely, but would it be possible to create a flexible system using faction specific items, thus allowing dynamic Balancing? IE: Everyone has a heavy weapon (ie: Kmissile, Imissile and Umissle) which are interchangable with Kmines, Imines and Umines, allowing the dev to nerf the Imissiles which currently do too much damage for a defensive faction, but maybe increase the damage of the Imine, as a defensive faction would put alot of time into developing effective static defence weapons.
I guess all I am saying is that the flexiblity in ships does enhance gameplay and fun, but balancing dynamicaly would be good too. I don't really think the idea of "this ship to do this thing and this thing only" would be well received by the community.
I invite comment, as my thinking may be flawed.
Thanks 
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Lyedtau
Admiral
Joined: January 18, 2007
Posts: 147
From: Dev land
| Posted: 2007-02-20 20:34
Quote:
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On 2007-02-20 16:48, big john wrote:
hmmm, very interesting. I totally understand the idea behind the Balancing, and I think it is a good one. Making everything faction only, would give alot more ability to balance the factions dynamically. The best thing (IMO) about DS used to be the modding, or customisation, of your ship. This version is already less flexible than previous versions, and I think the thinking behind dedicated ships to suit certain roles is nice in theory but could potentially be less fun for the creative player. In the olden days you would see an enemy and wonder, "How is this ship modded? The torp cruiser might be full of mines, is that why that supply is following him around? is he a long range, or short range fighter?" it made the game really fun, trying weird and often insane combinations of weapons and specials. It would be really easy to make each ship and arcade style Fixed ship (ie: here is a Sensor Scout, it finds things, or you can take out your "Anti-Sensor" Scout, it hides things) and before you say it, I know you are not thinking to nerf modding so completely, but would it be possible to create a flexible system using faction specific items, thus allowing dynamic Balancing? IE: Everyone has a heavy weapon (ie: Kmissile, Imissile and Umissle) which are interchangable with Kmines, Imines and Umines, allowing the dev to nerf the Imissiles which currently do too much damage for a defensive faction, but maybe increase the damage of the Imine, as a defensive faction would put alot of time into developing effective static defence weapons.
I guess all I am saying is that the flexiblity in ships does enhance gameplay and fun, but balancing dynamicaly would be good too. I don't really think the idea of "this ship to do this thing and this thing only" would be well received by the community.
I invite comment, as my thinking may be flawed.
Thanks
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Problem with allowing too much creativity, is that everyone ends up using the same builds anyway, because it's better than the rest.
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Made by Doran
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2007-02-21 21:32
Quote:
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On 2007-02-20 20:34, Lyedtau wrote:
Problem with allowing too much creativity, is that everyone ends up using the same builds anyway, because it's better than the rest.
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Thats the problem with any game. People will inherity find the best build - it's more effecient - and use it. exploit it. Use it all they can. Thats the whole reason why MMO's are struggling to be anything more then a money grubbing cash-cow.
And getting rid of creativity won't solve it. I hope the idea of easily changable modifcations to balance (without need of Faustus to do it) will really pick this game up.
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GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
| Posted: 2007-02-23 15:24
hey i got an idea, let faustus make the decisions, he and ONLY HE can change the game as how he see's fit, besides i'd rather keep modding the way it is so it wont be so hard for us Vets like me and damien for example i like the idea of switching out a few lazers for cannons ugh
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Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
| Posted: 2007-02-23 15:34
Actualy, Goth.. Faustus needs the community help with new ideas and how the game is going to be played. He isnt the one he's trying to keep happy, it's the community. The new modding system seems to be the best way. This way, players cant have an all torp missle dread, or a picket destroyer with full particle cannons.
The game isnt just about Veteran players either Goth, which you can hardly be considered one, it's about the community as a whole. The new modding system will help new players out alot.
[ This Message was edited by: |$in| on 2007-02-23 15:37 ]
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