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Thought Experiment |
Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
|  Posted: 2006-10-19 17:25
In talking about blackholes & gravity, think about a trampoline as space. Place a tennis ball on it, and the trampoline absorbs it a tiny bit - that is the moon. Place a baseball on it, and the baseball sinks a little deeper into the trampoline.
Now put a basketball on the trampoline, and it sinks in a lot more - that is the Sun. Now put a bowling ball on the trampoline, and it really sinks deep, and the entire trampoline is now bending towards the impression made by the ball. That is a black hole. It is so dense and has so much mass that its gravity can even suck in light it is so intense. That is the only way we can "see" a black hole is from the light that is swirling around it getting sucked down.
(w00t! Everything I ever needed to know about Black Holes & Space/Time I learned from SG1!)
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Veronw
Marshal
Joined: December 13, 2004
Posts: 554
| Posted: 2006-10-19 18:13
Quote:
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On 2006-10-19 14:46, !Lono! {King without a Crown} wrote:
I have a question
It was said by Albert Einstien that theres nothing faster then the speed of light. If thats true we are doomed to stay near this solar system for a very very very long time unless we figure out how to deep freeze our butts and sleep to our destination. Thats to say we invent a spacecraft with a prupulsion system that can reach light speed.
Anyway what im trying to say is..if theres nothing faster then light..then how does a blackhole pull light in and prevents it from escapeing? wouldnt that force be faster then light? although be it in the opposite direction.
Think about it. a blackhole must be moving in some direction to trap light. So if its moving, doesnt that constitute it being faster then light?
Who knows maybe one day we will figure out a way to harness the power of a blackhole and reach faster then light speeds and if we do..u seen the seeds here first lol.
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actually that might work with the way space and time bends around a black hole. It is possible that with the proper technology and equipment, u could essentially 'bend' space and time around u, thus creating a wormhole to any point in the universe. Stargate all over again 
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Ship-Of-Fools
2nd Rear Admiral
Angry Mob
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 415
From: USA
| Posted: 2006-10-20 09:35
i like my answer better, so nah
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Diomed
Cadet
Joined: January 09, 2003
Posts: 40
From: Sterling Heights, Michigan
| Posted: 2006-10-20 13:54
Thinking about black holes this way might make it a little easier to understand.
F = the force pulling any two objects
G = the number 667 divided by the number 100 billion
[m1] = the mass (quantity of matter) of one object
[m2] = the mass (quantity of matter) of a second object
d = the distance between the centers of two objects
The gravitational force between them can be expressed by the following equation (I apologive if it looks messy--hard to post equations)
F = G ([m1][m2] / d^2)
(d^2 in the equation should be read as " d squared")
Since G is such a small number, if you and I are standing 10 meters apart, one of us weights 54 kg and the other weighs 63 kg, the force that pulls us to each other is:
F = G ((54 x 63) / (10 x 10)) = 34 x G
G in this case is so small as to not even be noticed by either of us. On the other hand, when one of the bodies is the Earth, the force is much more substantial. (Actually, it's your weight.) That's exactly why you would weigh less on the moon--the moon's mass is much less than the Earth's.
When the distance between two objects decreases, the pull between them rapidly increases. If in the previous example we had been standing 5 meters apart, the gravity would have been 4 times stronger (136 x G).
To escape a planet or star, an object must possess escape velocity--it must move fast enough away from the gravitational well to overcome the gravitational pull of the planet or star. According to current physical theory, the maximum attainable speed in the universe is the speed of light--nothing can move faster than light.
If the gravitational pull of a star is exceedingly high, the escape velocity should theoretically exceed the speed of light. Since no object can move faster than the speed of light, nothing--including light--could leave such a star.
As to your original question, consider the following:
If two objects, both travelling at 3/4 the speed of light, passed each other travelling in opposite directions, you would think that they would appear to each other to be travelling faster than light (since two cars passing each other at 55 MPH appear to each other to be travelling at 110 MPH). However, they do NOT appear to travel faster than light.
[ This Message was edited by: Diomed on 2006-10-20 13:55 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2006-10-20 16:45
Lets say the speed of light is 100 mph.
Lets say the two objects are moving at 75mph in the opposite direction of each other.
Because neither of them reach the speed of light (100 mph), they can both see each other, even if they are travening in the opposite direction, and eve if 'seems' that the other car is going 150 mph.
Since neither of them reaches the speed of light, they can see each other - no matter how long for.
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Binks
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 469
| Posted: 2006-10-20 17:26
Went back and updated my old post. The answer is actually very simple, if you don't want to read my old post here it is, ready for this?
Man(A) seems to move at C(+-)x (x=Walking Speed) from Man(B)'s perspective.
Simple eh? Seems like something you don't even need physics for, just common sense eh? A simplified version of my reasoning is that, since the light from Man(A) always travels at C, and the light from the ship always travels at C, and Man(A)'s position is changing within the ship at Walking Speed x, then Man(A)'s 'transmission point' for the light being used to see him will move at speed x. The light won't move any faster than C, but each subsequent photon will start a little closer to Man(B) and therefore take a little less time. It's kinda like the doppler effect.
You know, that explanation is better than my old post's one...so there's no need to go back to my old post...
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Rhiawhyn Zerinth
Fleet Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 31, 2005
Posts: 257
From: I.C.C Deep space refueling station
| Posted: 2006-10-20 17:43
. . . ow my brain hurts
anyway we would learn about subspace before we learn to bend space iteself so in otherwords unles something like the sg program is true we wont see anything remotely close to that in our lifetimes.
so enjoy the ds jumping speed, your never gona see anything like it in real life
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Olbaid
Admiral
Joined: January 14, 2005
Posts: 14
From: Missouri
| Posted: 2006-10-20 18:58
i am thinking man (A) is not walking toward the front of the ship, but instead, he is plastered to the back wall of the ship and his face peeling back off of his skull.
lol
anything traveling at the speed of light expands rapidly, and i don't see anything "Solid" reforming back to it's original state.
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Binks
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 469
| Posted: 2006-10-20 19:23
Man(A)'s not gonna be plastered (pun totally intended) unless the ship is accelerating. Since this thought experiment assumed the ship was already moving at C then Man(A) doesn't feel any different than if he was sitting in a chair on, say, a planet rotating at a little more than the speed of sound and orbitting at a high velocity a star which is also orbitting at a high velocity the center of a galaxy...etc. Velocity is irrellivent to being thrown back, it's acceleration that matters
And as for the expansion, I think you mean contraction, as objects moving closer to the speed of light actually contract proof!. And the solid will reform to it's original state, since, from it's point of view, nothing has changed.
As for subspace etc., who says subspace is real? I, for one, neither believe in it nor believe it is neccessary, unless we're talking about two different subspaces...
EDIT: Again, disclaimer, this is all based on my current knowledge of physics. All statements are said with the understanding that they'll be taken as from my point of view and not neccessarily true. May cause insomnia and extreme boredom. Take 1 every 3 hours.
[ This Message was edited by: Binks on 2006-10-20 20:06 ]
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Olbaid
Admiral
Joined: January 14, 2005
Posts: 14
From: Missouri
| Posted: 2006-10-20 20:06
my first part was more of a joke than anything. but how would the ship reach that speed without having first accelerated... spaceships don't just appear outa thin air (or vaccuum in this case lol) moving that fast
bt i could have swore that as soon as something reaches the speed of light, it expands, though obviously i was wrong
[ This Message was edited by: Fatal Bones on 2006-10-20 20:09 ]
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Binks
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 469
| Posted: 2006-10-20 20:42
Yeah, before looking I actually was agreeing with you, but unsure. Googled it and up pops the fact that stuff contracts...
As for how the ship could reach C, since this was a thought experiment and that was one of the assumptions I originally ignored it, but it's not really that impossible.
There are two main ways I know of to achieve FTL speeds, or even near-C speeds, without messing with time/relativity. The first is to bend the rules, make the universe move you, make C bigger etc. The second, and more interesting in my opinion, is to simply ignore acceleration. Build a device that basicly messes with physics in such a way that your ship, to use a really dumbed down explanation, thinks that's it's moving at C and so starts moving at C. If you manage to pull it off (another way of explaining is to say you're teleporting your ship to the same location, but with a different velocity) then your body, which will also be now moving at C, doesn't feel any acceleration. You don't have to deal with increasing mass, since you never accelerated, although the whole time thing is still an issue.
There are already some 20 or so explanations for how to reach C, near-C, or Trans-C velocities. By the time we can actually do any of them we should have no problem figuring out how to bypass Einstein.
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Rhiawhyn Zerinth
Fleet Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 31, 2005
Posts: 257
From: I.C.C Deep space refueling station
| Posted: 2006-10-20 21:49
i just had an idea to hit the speed of light and then some.... not sure if its possible but. ok here goes, lets say you can make a gravity well right infront of your ship, lets say its as strong as a black hole only to have it affect only you so you dont end up killing te entire system, if you can move that as fast as its puling you in, (from reading the posts i inda figured blackholes pull you in at the speed of light or faster) you would end up moving faster (not sure how fast) than light all you have to do to stop is move it behind you until you hit 0 speed of movment and shut the gravity field down as soon as you hit 0.
correct me if im wrong but im not sure this would work, but... if it works you can travel faster than time so to say. all things inside will not be slamed against the back sence ALL of the matter is getting pulled at the same speed.
P.S as you can tell i have no physics skill but its worth a shot
anyway i think it would work on getting you moving.. not stoping you
i have a pic somewere that gave me this idea i will upload it if i can find it
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Kanman
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: August 26, 2005
Posts: 1017
From: Virginia, United States
| Posted: 2006-10-20 22:14
Jack, nothing can travel faster than light. Time warping comes into effect and prevents that. You would never see the other object going at "150 MPH".
If an object is travelling near the speed of light and he shines a beam of light out the front, the light from that light source will recede from the vessel at the speed of light. At that point, the person going near the speed of light has time passing so slowly that the relatively slow receding of the light actually appears to recede from him at the speed of light from his perspective.
An outside observer would see the ship going near the speed of light and the light from its front going AT the speed of light, slipping away from the front of it slowly.
Time warping is FUN! 
Same thing if two people go near the speed of light right at each other. Time warping makes them pass each other no faster than the speed of light.
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Binks
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 28, 2003
Posts: 469
| Posted: 2006-10-20 22:55
Quote:
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On 2006-10-20 21:49, Rhiawhyn wrote:
A lot...
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Yeah, that's a good concept there Rhiawhyn. I don't think I've ever heard it expressed exactly that way but that's one of the "warp" type FTL theories, you create a gravity well in front of you that pulls you forward and keep it in front of your ship. In the actual idea you also build an anti-gravity well behind you that basicly "resets" the space behind you so you have no net effect on the universe. It would likely work, but manipulating gravity is still beyond us.
Quote:
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On2006-10-20 22:14, Kanman *FC2* wrote:
Some stuff...
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I'm not a hundred percent sure what you wrote after the first line but I do know that the first one is a little off. That's what I originally assumed, but actually, if you think about it, things can appear to move faster than light.
If you're moving back at c/2 and something passes you at c then the photons from that object, which are all travelling at the same speed, are launched from progressively further away points and reach your ship at progressively later times because their distance increased and their velocity stayed the same. Basicly, v= d/t, t=d/v (t being the time between photons hitting your eyes, d being the distance those photons travel, v being the speed of those photons). Since V is C, and D is increasing at 3C/2 t is getting bigger (num constant, denom increasing, result increasing) t is increasing at C/(3C/2)/s or something like that.
Basicly it boils down to since D is increasing FTL, and the speed of the things crossing that D are moving at C, they must be hitting the target (your eye) at a rate that would appear as though the object in front of you was moving FTL. It's the same thing that makes you percieve that, say in a car, the background is moving away from you at speed x rather than you moving at speed x.
Yeah, I botched that explanation, it's late, on a Friday, I have to GM a game early tommorrow morning, I just finished some yardwork. Sue me if you like, but that's the best your getting for now, I just can't wrap my mind around my own thoughts properly...
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Jammy Pajamies
Admiral
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 121
From: See Occupation
| Posted: 2006-10-21 02:08
binks is correct.in space,the is no gravity,therefore if you are going under the speed of light,then you will continue to go faster until you hit the barrier,the speed of light.however,if you are going ftl,then theres no telling wtf might happen.DISENGRATION FTW XD
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