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whats happning and why ? |
Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
|  Posted: 2007-01-18 19:35
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On 2007-01-18 19:19, bc796d wrote:
You can still mirv and I plan on doing it as much as possible now as my form of protest.
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Much like the communist party of america?
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Leonide
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 1553
From: Newport News, Virginia
| Posted: 2007-01-18 20:26
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On 2007-01-18 19:19, bc796d wrote:
You can still mirv and I plan on doing it as much as possible now as my form of protest.
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of course you would. which is why you suck too. 
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captain of the ICC Assault Cruiser C.S.S. Sledgehammer
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2007-01-18 23:38
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On 2007-01-18 17:36, Obiwan Kenobi wrote:
what happened to free choice...what happened to all these people saying to live with it and get over it....
you do realize that if you restrict weapons and such that eventually it will move to other items. and then what ? all thats gonna be accomplished is more people becoming frustrated and to be frank getting all pissy and then there gone.
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It was said because mostly, we didn't have any choice in the matter. We have no power to modify the game, as so all that was possible was saying "Oh well, cant do anything so we're stuck with it".
For one, I need to clarify this 'restriction'.
This script as it were, does not prevent you from modding mirvs, fighter bombers, tks, or anything of the destructive sort. You can still mod them onto your ships, and it is not illegal to mod them onto your ships.
However, if you do mod them onto your ships, the script will teleport you back - and continue to do so until to fit non-destructive bombing gadgets (neutrons and bio bombs) onto your ship.
So, whats the bad part about that? Suddenly a weapon almost every person this game has used and abused to the point of people getting FA/GA in a few months is no longer possible. Weapons that merely damage population/infantry instead of anything add a slightly higher challenge in bombing and captureing a planet.
While bombing crusades will continue unabated, it will lesson the mindlessness that we've been recently seeing (aka, entire factions planets destroyed and half the planets not even captured and the ones that were, not built).
I also want to clarify, that peaceful ways of deterring this method of playing have been attempted for over a year, and frankly, this script did come too late - but its good that it did. It fixes a problem that has long since plagued this version.
As for restricting other weapons, thats quite the logical train you have going there. The only reason I can think of that warrents the current script is that for a year and half people have continually complained about its use and its effects, and that very fact that makes the game unfun and unplayable for a considerable amount of players.
Therefore its reasonable to conclude that such a script comes from the very fact that that the community has long since pressed for something to be done. So unless the community at large protested other weapons for such a long period of time, I doubt any other weapon would be subjected to such a script (and even if it were community wide, I'd still have my doubts).
And sorry for the long post - such doomsaying in the above quote just irked me.
-Ent
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Borgie
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 2256
From: close by
| Posted: 2007-01-18 23:47
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On 2007-01-18 19:19, bc796d wrote:
You can still mirv and I plan on doing it as much as possible now as my form of protest.
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bc, shig and i tested this script for about 3 hours lastnight, it is damn near inpossable to bomb with nukes now. once you get with in a planets bomb range you get sent back to your spawn point. to prevent this use nuets. this is ment to cut down on the over use of nuking and glassing planets. yes nukeing a planet is easy pres, yes you have the right to (before script) to do it. but think about the other players in the game. bc do you personaly like having everything on your side constantly wiped clean becuase 1 player wants easy pres?
besides whats wrong with using nuets, nuets pre time spent doing it gives quiet a bit of pres, each planet is about 30-60 pres depending on how much pop and units you kill. nuking gives ya 60-100 a planet.
take your pick piss off the gaming community, lose other subscriptions, which would lead to faust shutting down the game.
so pick your poison bc..
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GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
| Posted: 2007-01-19 00:04
borgie, he mirvs to get back at me, in essence he mirvs to piss me off and well honestly this is his just desserts, he mirvs he gets sent back to his damn spawn point and im gonna laugh and laugh and laugh each time he does it lol. Check mate mirv brats you lose
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Mithrandir
Chief Marshal
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 1276
| Posted: 2007-01-19 00:34
A little explanation on the script...
In the case of staff slowness to act, yes, I admit we are "late" on this little fix, but while people have been complaining for ages, there's also been a reasonably vocal minority (though most vocal portions are minorities; I personally think at least half the community just "dealt with it" and kept playing as best they could - or left) saying that we should no restrict things like this because that's how the game is. We shouldn't restrict it because its the player's job to defend their planets, not leave it to defense bases which are ineffectual. We shouldn't restrict it because you can mod them on, ergo you should be able to use them.
A few months ago things were bad enough consistently to stick up safe zones around home planets, because often factions would logon to find all their spawn points bombed into the stone age. We acted then, and got some complaints here and there, primarily for spoiling realism and removing the ability to completely annihilate a faction.. which has always been the "goal" of the MV. But, people took it in stride.
Now a few weeks back we decided to reset the MV, reconfigure it, and attempt to subtly encourage combat by routing players along various jump gate routes (though, of course, wormholes sort of defeats the purpose, and shipyards don't help). This did spur a few good battles early on, but as soon as people managed to build up half the MV, some players fell back into their habits of bombing endlessly - there were now enough planets to support their pres gain habits.
So now we have an MV which looks like it was just reset a day or two ago, with tons of planets captured but not built - because people just go on mirving sprees, drop and inf on each planet, then move on.
Yes, there have always been complaints, but honestly I feel like nowadays there were comparatively few; at periods in the past we've had way more, on a regular basis. You do see them now, but more often you just get people yelling at eachother in the MV when they spot a bomber.
However, I had had enough. I personally don't play much, so I guess I never fully appreciated the magnitude of the mirving epidemic. But after the MV reset, and after making a few comments while hanging out in the lobby immediately thereafter, I tried to encourage less bombing - and honestly hoped that people wouldn't resort to it as much. But things keep on going as they have in this patch, and looking at many of the MV maps just showed planet after planet with 0/0/0, but owned by someone. That is ridiculous. That is not playing the game the way its meant to be played.
Lets be frank: MiRVs are bugged. This has been shown by looking in the code, but since we changed not only the data format for the dev files as well as began a server backend rewrite, there wasn't an opportunity to fix it with a proper patch. I personally figured that, first, a code would be sooner in coming than it has turned out to be, and secondly, that players would be mature enough to not exploit a system which not only is bugged but is so ridiculously easy that one should wonder if something is wrong with it. MiRVs have a compound effect where their damage is multiplied when they're used together, meaning you can use far fewer than in the past to get the same job done - and all bombs are pretty damned effective if you look at it (and compare it to previous versions, for those of us who are around from earlier iterations of the game).
So, annoyed that "my" new MV was being trashed, as well as the constant disrespect shown to other players, their ability to play a fair and diverse game (instead of BombSpace), and the opportunities for all to have fun.. I whipped up a quick script (which I'd actually begun months ago, when bombing was rampant and so were complaints, but abandoned in the face of patch optimism and a lack of staff desire to meddle in the game so crudely - for this script is crude, I admit) which would disable mirvs. However, the MV is fickle with scripts, so I can't outright remove them. So last week I settled for a bothersome message telling people who were equipping MiRVs to get a new ship.
Then earlier this week I extended it to TK bombs, Fighter bombers, and PSMs after talking over the first script a bit. I also lowered the threshold of bombs allowed (to 0, since I was told that one mirv bay was enough to wipe a planet if done right; before I had been exempting 2 bays before the message was sent).
Yesterday I was in the lobby again, and Faustus was talking to the players a bit about his progress, and some players brought up the question of getting a quick fix for the mirving to put a stop to some of the bad blood around here. He commented that if it was really that bad, and since there is a bug, he's not opposed to a RoC addition banning MiRVing altogether.
I, however, knew what a headache that would be for enforcement, and commented on that... so he mentioned a script would be handy for that - and lo and behold, I already had a script somewhat ready.
So I added the (rather fickle) teleportation function to the script, tested it a bit, and then let it loose on the MV.
Yes, its an annoyance to some who, for example, spawn a Clavate with Bios (totally fine) but who also have Wasps equipped (prohibited), or those who prefer to build in Command dreads (totally fine), which happen to come with MiRVs (prohibited) - even if those pilots didn't intend to use the destructive bomb types. And there are those who argue that it infringes on the spirit of the game (player choice and all), or have other arguments against it.
At the end of the day, however, I think the important point to keep in mind is whether its increasing or decreasing the overall enjoyment of the game. Personally, I think it will help things, even with the annoyance of having to remod some ships when spawned.
If you disagree, you're welcome to hold that opinion. After a few more days of having it running, I'll (or some other staff will) put up a thread about the issues so we can discuss the positives and shortcomings of the system. Then the staff will re-evaluate our little pilot anti-mirv program and see if we need to change anything, scrap it, or keep it running as-is. So even if you hate it, you can play with other ships without bombs safely, or bomb with Neutrons without fear. And after a few days, its effectiveness and necessity will be looked at, and it just might go away if you can make a convincing argument against it (though I will be honest and say that the job of convincing me against it will be harder than convincing me to keep it; I am biased, I'll state upfront).
So play a few days with it in place, see how the game looks to you, then offer your feedback.
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GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
| Posted: 2007-01-19 00:49
well said mith well said 
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Borgie
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 2256
From: close by
| Posted: 2007-01-19 01:49
which was fun being a lab rat for the test last night
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2007-01-19 08:07
Those wondering about MiRVS not being bugged:
All weapon damage was ramped in the release of 1.483 with the introduction of levels (a very bad implimentation of them).
There is a threshold on a planet, that says - If you go over number of damage points to the planet, then everything will blow up. Because MiRV damage got ramped, and the threshold did not, only a few level 10 MiRVs, with their multiplier, hit the threshold too quickly, and so the planet is wiped.
This was not intended, and there have been several quick fixes to beta, but due to the way DarkSpace works, and the work on beta so far, a patch to fix it is impossible.
A script like this is a very welcome change in DarkSpace to those who just want to fight. I'm one of those people, and I've slowly been driven out of the MV because of the lack of places to defend, and lack of people to fight. This slows down bombing, and doesn't render your planets completely useless in a few seconds, and as such, should make people play more, and ultimately, fight more.
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Fatal Rocko Willis
Fleet Admiral
Fatal Squadron
Joined: March 01, 2003
Posts: 1336
From: Kentucky
| Posted: 2007-01-19 08:17
::Applause:: I am happy with the modding... I can bomb with nuets or mirvs... No big deal, for it is still positive pres gain.
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GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
| Posted: 2007-01-19 09:44
This is also a deterrent for those of us who love building so....my prestige suffers because of the lack of construction in problem areas, plus if the planet goes rogue, well, there goes my motivation for wiping the planet clean and starting anew but yeah, this is a good thing and will encourage the baby FA's/GA's too fight more
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2007-01-19 12:02
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On 2007-01-19 09:44, Fatal GothThug *Ens*(Ret) wrote:
This is also a deterrent for those of us who love building so....my prestige suffers because of the lack of construction in problem areas, plus if the planet goes rogue, well, there goes my motivation for wiping the planet clean and starting anew but yeah, this is a good thing and will encourage the baby FA's/GA's too fight more
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Construction prestige is out of wack because of bombing too, this solves two issues.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2007-01-19 13:09 ]
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-RevenG-
Raven Warriors
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 2673
| Posted: 2007-01-19 12:29
Ok, what to say. Oh, I know! Ha...You know, you people always want to "help" DS. Now, the funny thing is, when something is done that does help DS (This helps, trust me. This should cause more combat, or atleast stop the pres jockies.), you all complain, and say you are going to "protest". It seems you don't want what is good, only what makes it easier for you to get pres. You selfish fools. I'm glad you lost your "pres farm". Good, now you have to earn it. "HOW HORRIBLE, THAT'S UNFAIR! I'M QUITING!" you say. I say, tough luck, don't let the door hit your arse on the way out. You arn't important, you do nothing to help DS. It really doesn't matter that you think it's unfair. This change is needed. People bombing out of spite, was not needed. People will now have a better time, it will be fun for them to play. You say it wont be fun for you now, your "fun has been ruined. No it hasn't, you still have neuts. Oh wait, you mean the pissing others off, that fun? Yeah, it's gone. DS might not be as fun for you, but it will be alot more fun for the rest of the players, which to me, is more important. In closing, Shut up, cry yourself a river, build a bridge and get over it. For those saying they will quit...good, I'm glad. One less selfish idiot in DS. Ta.
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$yTHe {C?}
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: September 29, 2002
Posts: 1292
From: Arlington, VA
| Posted: 2007-01-19 12:58
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On 2007-01-18 17:36, Obiwan Kenobi wrote:
you do realize that if you restrict weapons and such that eventually it will move to other items.
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Ah, the slippery slope argument. Yes, a classic example would be like the countries that allow gay marriage, and the people went straight from that to making love to animals.
Oh wait.
[ This Message was edited by: $yTHe {Ret.} on 2007-01-19 13:07 ]
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-RevenG-
Raven Warriors
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 2673
| Posted: 2007-01-19 13:45
I thought it was reversed Sythe? I mean, the sheep have been getting it on since the 1600's in Sco...wait...
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