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Planned Ship Changes for 1.484 (UGTO) |
Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
|  Posted: 2007-07-16 07:51
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On 2007-07-14 23:56, Enterprise wrote:
A.) How are destroyers stronger than dreadnoughts balanced?
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They're not. K'luth destroyers had paper thin armor. They just had a lot of weapons (I think it was 6 Cl2k slots?..)
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B.) Tell cruisers and Dreadnoughts that got pounded by sabot supplies that.
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"Oh, look at me, I can't work as a team, somebody help me, this dinky supply ship has managed to get close to my huge ship and fire dumb missiles into it! Please, somebody invent tactics so I may use them!"
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C.) Since when did it become balanced to be able to take out a station in less than 20 seconds and Dreadnoughts faster, and unwary cruisers eveb faster, if they didnt keep a dictor around at all times?
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You solved your own question. They're good for assault - okay. Let's see them defend.
-Ent
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Kaganader
Vice Admiral
Lethal Assault Group
Joined: January 28, 2004
Posts: 38
From: In a Black Hole
| Posted: 2007-07-26 02:08
the assult corvette has a P torp on it still, while the interceptor was taken off to fill with missiles when the interceptor is supposed to be the offencive frigate.
the Harrier which is filled all with missiles is supposed to be the support ship of the frigates. so why take out the p torp and fill it with missiles when missiles are supposed to be for support since they cause minimal damage.
and i think it was crim in an earlier post saying ships that small shouldnt have p-torps but the Assault corvette still has one while the offencive frigate doesn't. doesnt make sense for a smaller ship to have one and not the mid-small ship not to have one.
-Kag
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2007-07-26 08:20
Torpedoes on small ships are not very effective at level 0, 1 or 2.
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It's gone now, no longer here...Yet still I see, and still I fear.rnrn
rnrn
DarkSpace Developer - Retired
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2007-07-26 08:29
The ships you both mentioned are far too overpowered, and are being nerfed.
Now Enterprise and Fattierob, please keep on topic.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2007-07-26 08:30 ]
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Kano
Cadet
Joined: February 22, 2004
Posts: 20
| Posted: 2007-08-07 00:51
I haven't seen a harrier in years.
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2008-03-21 22:24
The main things I want to see is that small ships have very weak armour (nothing wrong with being point jumped and killed), but at least having the DPS to be useful.
A couple destroyers should be a problem for a dread, not waved off as mere nothings to be ignored. When it comes down to it, the main limiting factor is the number of players - you can't afford to need 4 dessy per dread, because that would not happen. A small ship doesn't need to be able to do enough to bring down a capital alone, but it should at least be able to damage enough to be noticable.
I'm not talking about 482-claw DPS, less than that but something enough that over time it's making a real difference.
Paper-thin armour, good speed and reasonable damage - then skill just makes the difference between the ship being useful or not.
[ This Message was edited by: Lonectzn on 2008-03-21 22:25 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2008-03-22 10:16
It's called balance Lone:
A dreadnougth has serious problems keeping a destroyer in range. Pre-1.483, Kluth destroyers were quite powerful and could easily kill a dreadnought. That wasn't because of pilot skill - it was because they had enough damage to down a dreadnought over time, and the dreadnought had no way of keeping them in range.
To balance this out, dreadnoughts now take minimal damage from anything below a cruiser. To be honest - you shouldn't be taking on a dreadnought in a destroyer - it's your job to go after the smaller ships. That way we have a nice balance, and a FLEET.
You can attribute to the DPS done against a large target, but you're not going to be taking anything two hull sizes over yours in a few minutes, alone.
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2008-03-23 00:44
What you just mentioned nullifies smaller ships. If their only use is to hit other smaller ships, what the hell? Destroyers are already under-used right now barring bugged ICC.
I didn't say that they should have 482-clawlike damage, I specifically said less than that, but enough that given time it should be significant.
Balance, is about having a mix of ships on the field, and ensuring nothing is just all-out 'best'. The mix was actually better in 482 than it is now - cruisers should be the primary SOTL, smaller provide support and the capitals provide focused damage. We've already lost the smaller classes, strengthening caps and weakening smalls will just continue in the direction 483 started.
There's nothing wrong with dreads being vulnerable to groups of smaller ships. There were balance problems in 482, but they needed to be approached with care and balancing changes, not with the hammer that it got.
I don't see dessies overpowering the MV right now - why weaken them further.
[ This Message was edited by: Lonectzn on 2008-03-23 00:49 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-03-23 06:49
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On 2008-03-23 00:44, Lonectzn wrote:
There's nothing wrong with dreads being vulnerable to groups of smaller ships.
[ This Message was edited by: Lonectzn on 2008-03-23 00:49 ]
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And they are vulnerable. 4 destroyers are designed in .484 to take down a Dreadnought within a reasonable space of time.
A single destroyer will not be able to do so. Of course, if a destroyer kept up enough firepower over a really long period of time, sure.
However currently, its better to look at what actually happens than whats on paper.
See, dreadnoughts are not designed to attack smaller ships. They are designed to kill things as big as they are. Just as destroyers are not designed to attack larger ships, they are designed to kill things as big as they are. One on one.
That means, one on one, a destroyer cannot kill a Dreadnought easily because it has thick armoring, but in reverse, a dreadnought cannot kill a destroyer easily because a destroyer has the speed and manueverability to avoid its weapons fire.
As for point jumping, if you let yourself be at the fore of a dreadnought long enough to be point jumped you deserve the pain.
Its also good to remember however that Darkspace is a team-based game. And such one on one encounters are rare. Itll be often enough you'll be in groups of various kinds of ships, and every ship has a role to play. Some might rebuke at smaller ships being 'weaker' but if they could stand up to a dreadnought, why bother flying the dreadnought?
Just to make it plain, smaller ships cannot have enough weaponry to fight off ships two hull sizes or more on their simply because it repeats the problems from just about every other version alone. It becomes more powerful than intended, because with pilot skill factored in they become better than a dreadnought or cruiser could hope to become and thus you make anything bigger redundant. Which is why in this version ships are being designed to fight anything one hull class above and below them.
-Ent
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2008-03-23 07:08
Oh I'm not saying destroyers should be able to stand up to a dread. I'm just saying that the damage should be enough that it makes a noticeable difference.
One of the biggest differences to 482 was the weapon arcs. Nothing was easier than running circles around someone and firing 4 torps backwards. Now we don't have that luxury - to bring all weapons to bear you have to risk a little.
Really what I'm trying to say is that bugs aside, current dessy have a seriously tough time making a significant impact. With torp/missile slot changes also, it can't afford a drop in DPS along with it. If anything the current dessy need a slight increase, or faster and more accurate weapons.
Actually that would be a good idea, and fit with common sense - high speed cannons and agile missiles. Having agile missiles would compensate somewhat for their arcs.
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2694
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2008-03-23 20:55
I'd tested some of the varried ship classes against others.
And found out that the 2 to 1 principle works but. if you intend to kill your enemy you need to bring more than 2 to 1.
A mock battles i still remember:
Two ICC Combat Destroyers v/s a ICC Heavy Cruiser. we ran out of ammunition all that was left was CL power. in the end we gave up.
I would love to have some people in the beta to test out some class v/s class, but this requires people. and when i'm in beta. and when others are in beta the time and reason all varry.
But as soon as we get a fixed map i woudn't be suprized if more people come in here.
p.s. Dreads, Stations and Support ships are not yet changed, so best not to include them in those kind of tests yet.
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