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Hull scaling? |
_x$witchBladex_ [1.480 Fanboy]
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 26, 2003
Posts: 849
From: Upstate New York
|  Posted: 2008-05-04 19:39
I know I have been out of the loop for some time, so I apologize if this has actually been explained, but why the hell are we scaling all weapons and armor according to hull sizes?
Yes, I know it is obvious I will bring up how the .480 system worked completely fine, however I do not see how new players will be able to do anything. First, anyone who can get a dread is going to be using one, which is going to limit combat greatly and take away the variety of battle.
Second, scaling weapons doesn't seem to make sense to me. Consider modern day airplanes/submarines/boats. Why (if they are) are torps being scaled by any means? If anything were to make sense, the amount each hull size could carry should be altered. Same thing goes for all missiles (granted destroyers aren't going to be handed PCM's). I understand particle/psi/emp cannons because certain sized hulls can only handle so much power usage.
Third, what the hell is going on with the amount of weapons per ship. I just feel like each slot creates one more thing for the server to keep track of. What happened to 10 weapon slots being powerful? Now I look at dread layouts and they are close to 30 weapon slots just to hand out the same damage as the 10 used to. A lot of the lag issues could possibly be cleared up by limiting the weapon slots back down. I'm not saying go back to the .480 layouts or anything, but consider using similar designs?
Lastly, the issue with armor drives me crazy because it completely makes smaller ships useless, thus making new players unwilling to play. Yes, the current system is completely messed up, but the way the .480 armor was setup made so much more sense by just adding more per hull size/what the ship's specific purpose is.
Call me old fashioned and unrealistic, but in all honesty there is a point where realism ruins a game. Once again, if I have missed reasons/explanations for this I apologize, just trying to understand and give my 2 cents.
-Switch
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2008-05-05 14:00
IANAD (I am not a dev), but I will try to answer as much as I know.
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On 2008-05-04 19:39, _x$witchBladex_ the Rum Loving Pirate wrote:
I know I have been out of the loop for some time, so I apologize if this has actually been explained, but why the hell are we scaling all weapons and armor according to hull sizes?
Yes, I know it is obvious I will bring up how the .480 system worked completely fine, however I do not see how new players will be able to do anything. First, anyone who can get a dread is going to be using one, which is going to limit combat greatly and take away the variety of battle.
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I have this slight fear of this happening to - even more so in the fact that smaller ships really aren't mauneverable enough to dodge cannons, and dreads can point jump quite easily. The school of thought appears to be "you worked for the rank, here you go kid". Scouts aren't meant to take on anything larger then a frigate and survive. Still, I think heavy testing is needed (Especially with destroyers vs cruisers and cruisers vs dreads) before we declare "DreadSpace".
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Second, scaling weapons doesn't seem to make sense to me. Consider modern day airplanes/submarines/boats. Why (if they are) are torps being scaled by any means? If anything were to make sense, the amount each hull size could carry should be altered. Same thing goes for all missiles (granted destroyers aren't going to be handed PCM's). I understand particle/psi/emp cannons because certain sized hulls can only handle so much power usage.
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It does make sense, if you think about power usage. Also, DarkSpace doesn't have to be 100% realistic or make sense - it is a game after all.
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Third, what the hell is going on with the amount of weapons per ship. I just feel like each slot creates one more thing for the server to keep track of. What happened to 10 weapon slots being powerful? Now I look at dread layouts and they are close to 30 weapon slots just to hand out the same damage as the 10 used to. A lot of the lag issues could possibly be cleared up by limiting the weapon slots back down. I'm not saying go back to the .480 layouts or anything, but consider using similar designs?
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I have never ever heard of gadgets on ships causing more lag. However, that is an interesting concept. I would like a dev to comment on that...
But ignoring the potetional lag, dreads are getting more weapon gadgets, more armor gadgets, AND these are more powerful then every other weapon (dreads get lvl 10 weapons).
So....again, testing.
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Lastly, the issue with armor drives me crazy because it completely makes smaller ships useless, thus making new players unwilling to play. Yes, the current system is completely messed up, but the way the .480 armor was setup made so much more sense by just adding more per hull size/what the ship's specific purpose is.
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Smaller ships, like scouts and frigates...really don't have a combat role. I mean, sure, you can take a handful of frigates and kill a destroyer, but who is going to fly frigates? You fly from midshipman to captain so fast you don't even notice the frigates/scouts. Really, the only people who are going to suffer are unsubbed people, or new players who have no idea what are going on and are going to get alpha-strike'd as soon as they log in, die, and never touch the game again.
I do have some fears, but I think right now it's heading down the right path. In any case, the only thing I can suggest is more cowbell.
Testing. I mean, more testing.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-05-05 14:22
I'll address the so-called fear of DreadSpace, as it were.
Something present in all games, MMO or otherwise, is that the majority of people tend to gravitate towards what is the most powerful as well as most easy to use ship/weapon/ability etc, there is. And its no different in DS.
So yes, Dreadnoughts being powerful again will naturally mean that anyone with the rank, whether or not they earned it, will naturally gravitate towards it. However, this same problem has existed in many versions in the past and in .483 they tried to fix it by making them cost a bargeload of prestige to lose.
That didn't work. It meant there was much more risk than reward to using them.
They tried to fix it by making smaller ships stronger, more durable against larger ships, by nerfing CL's and upping armor.
We wound up with a worse problem than before.
Come to think of it, it never really was a 'problem' in all reality, since many people flying Dreadnoughts meant that they were evenly matched against each other. And smaller ships working together still had the advantage - if they used their brains.
Darkspace isn't supposed to be LOL EASY SHIPS, its a challenge. Sure, everyone will try to fly Dreadnoughts but those who don't learn fast will find themselves demoted or worse and will realize smaller ships have less risk but work just as well if used right. Everyone in past versions, also, had to work their way up.
I can't count the number of times I remember dieing, continually, to larger ships when I first started playing, but I also remember working with others meant I didn't die. Hopefully the same will return, and people will remember that if what you earn isnt worth the time and effort gone into getting it, then whats the point of advancing at all?
And most of all, wait for testing. If something is overpowered - use the power of TELLING PEOPLE, and get it fixed.
-Ent
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_x$witchBladex_ [1.480 Fanboy]
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 26, 2003
Posts: 849
From: Upstate New York
| Posted: 2008-05-05 15:50
Alright, both those explanations helped a lot. Thanks.
-Switch
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Xpli$it
Marshal
Joined: March 06, 2004
Posts: 486
From: Canada
| Posted: 2008-05-08 11:11
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On 2008-05-05 14:22, Enterprise wrote:
I'll address the so-called fear of DreadSpace, as it were.
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You did address, and cover, most of this "issue", but I feel I need to touch on it with my own two cents.
There is a newbie server for a reason. Small ships play with small ships, new players with new players, until they can gain rank and get a feel for the game, by the time they come out of newbie server, ideally they should be able to gain easy prestige (supplying) to the point where they can fly cruisers.
Dreadnaughts SHOULD be the be-all-end-all, they should instill fear on any lesser ships, if a cruiser should encounter a dread, the cruiser should be forced to run for it's life. That having been said, more than one cruiser versus a dread should force the dread to escape, even though the dread should be able to do some serious damage in this time.
Dreads have never been over powered.. at least, not that I've ever been around to witness. Everyone always fears that dreads will become too powerful.. but this just isn't really possible, energy problems, combined with slow speeds, just make them easy targets.
Yes new players should fear dreads, thats why they shouldn't go in combat against one, MV especially. Dreads NEED to be beefed up, and overpowered dreads are a lot easier to swallow then overpowered destroyers.
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2694
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2008-05-08 18:44
Quote:
| On 2008-05-05 14:00, Nanatsu-Yoru wrote:
I have never ever heard of gadgets on ships causing more lag. However, that is an interesting concept. I would like a dev to comment on that...
So....again, testing. |
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I'm no dev but: It makes sence, every planet, every device, every missile shot and particle cannon round is a entity the more entity that are in the game the more the servers have to track and store.
In the past all ships had less devices,
e.g. if i recall UGTO BD only had 7 cannon slots.
I am for reducing devices of a ship but that will involve reballancing the ships again.
But as nanatsu says, it should be a interesting thing to test if it actualy has anny effect. because in theorie it dous.
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On 2008-05-08 11:11, Xpli$it wrote:
Dreads have never been over powered.. at least, not that I've ever been around to witness. Everyone always fears that dreads will become too powerful.. but this just isn't really possible, energy problems, combined with slow speeds, just make them easy targets. |
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EAD!!! scram! don't get close.
TC! TC! watch it.
[on topic]
I agree with what your saying but its all about faction preferences.
If you look at UGTO you notice that they Revolve around big battle dreads and the smaller (destroyer and frigates) are more assist ships than actual combat ships.
ICC however revolves around Cruisers and even have destroyers capable of direct combat.
K'Luth.. haven't figured out exactly what hull design they prefere but i would think it is a destroyer and dread combinations.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2008-05-08 22:28
I've said this in the past, but in my mind you can balance one of two ways:
Big ships have more space, so they fit more weapons. This means they get 10 cannons to a small ships get 2. The cannons are the same.
Big ships have more space, so they get more powerful weapons. This means they have 5 cannons mark II, and small ships get 5 mark I. The number of weapons are the same, but the power scales.
DarkSpace has long decided to do a hybrid of them, where dreads might have a beam or two more than a destroyer, plus they get CL2000s instead of CL500s. There was some scaling of weapon power plus some scaling of weapon number.
This version takes that sysem even further still, with weapons scaling directly based on the hull level, PLUS vastly more weapons on a big ship. That's cause dreads should laugh at the puny destroyers flitting around like gnats. Apparently.
Also, Eledore is right. Ships have more gadgets, so more things to track (though having more gadgets isn't really a big deal in and of itself), plus those gadgets have more objects they spawn when they fire, so extra more things to track.
I of course don't know the netcode, nor how much a difference it makes, but it is indeed true that the more weapons you have being fired, the more work the game has to do in terms of processing them (CPU work), displaying them (GPU work), and transmitting them (Network er, work). So maybe there's an effect.
Would it reduce lag to make every ship have one weapon that scales in power based on the hull size? Maybe, especially if its a beam. Should we do it? Probably not.
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2008-05-10 18:52
One thing i have been mulling over is how do we avoid Dreadspace again...
And I was thinking the solution might be simple really... We use a reverse curve on energy capacity vs device drain. Meaning we give the smallest ships enough power to run nearly full speed and constantly firing their weapons, while the bigger the ships, with more equipment are forced to selective fire...
Two alphas, you might be out of power for 30 seconds... (you get the idea). Instead of dramatically increasing the power on the bigger ships we give them less reserves. Make it so they run down faster.
This will bring a balance back and possibly get more smaller and medium sized support ships back in the game. The bigger ships may do more damage over all, but energy management becomes paramount.
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I know this isnt to scale with the game, but lets say the following:
Scout has 10 energy capacity
Destroyer has 25 energy capacity
Dread has 50 energy capacity
Full Engine speed takes 2 energy
CL's take 4 energy
HCL's take 10 energy
Beacons take 1 energy
ECM/ECCM takes 2 energy
Scout has
1 CL
1 Beacon
2 ECM/ECCM
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At full speed they'd need 11 energy to keep everything fully charge, 1 more than they have. But running at 75%/80% max speed they could plug away while maintaining power.
Destroyer has
4 CL's
1 HCL
1 ECM/ECCM
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At full speed they'd expend 30 energy to keep everything charged, 5 more than they have. Running around at around 65% max speed they could battle longer though still would run out of energy, just slower.
Dread has
5 CL's
4 HCL's
1 ECM/ECCM
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At full speed they'd expend 64 energy, 14 more than they have. They would quickly depelete their energy reserves running around alpha striking all the time. Even creeping at 40% speed, constant battle will quickly drain their energy reserves.
But the dreads have the heavier armor to sit in battle longer and take the abuse while tactically choosing weapons and targets while the smaller ships do less damage, but can zip in and out of battle. Still a good blast from a dread at the right moment could do serious damage to the smaller ships, but that alpha may leave the dread exposed for a few seconds, 20 to 30 while they recover their power levels.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-05-10 19:13
Good idea on paper Tael, but to be perfectly honest, even five seconds is a long time to remain vulnerable on the battlefield.
While it does throw in a a need to be tactically aware (read: not spacebar mashing), it still makes Dreads essentially flying damage sponges, assuming they have enough armor to withstand the firepower of several cruisers for several minutes.
Yes, minutes. I say minutes because between one alpha every 20-30 seconds, and the fact that to use that alpha effectively the dreadnought needs to get close enough and at the right angle and heading.
Considering that dreadnought are large, slow, and unmanueverable and cruisers aren't, you can see the difficulty.
So a dreadnought needs to survive long enough to bloody their noses. Which is either alot of armor or cruisers doing alot, lot less damage to them.
You need to remember the whole risk vs. reward thing. Dreadnoughts are meant to be huge lumbering Ill make your mother wish she never met your father harbingers of incandecent fury.
For every weakness you hit them with, they need their strengths too, or we're back to square one. Everyone using small ships, and no one using large ones. Ranking up is pointless and the need for those ships virtually disapears.
-Ent
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2008-05-10 19:14
Tael that is a very awesome and effective reasoning.
It allows new players to not have to worry (too much) about energy reserves, and once they pick up the game mechanics and gain rank, they now have to learn how to juggle energy mangement.
It also means dreads won't go around popping scouts because they'll be so low on energy (from the alpha and/or chasing) , or in a tactically poor position.
I really really like that idea
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-Shadowalker-™
Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: September 23, 2007
Posts: 709
From: Shadows
| Posted: 2008-05-10 20:20
You try being midshipman for 1 years!!!!
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Smaller ships, like scouts and frigates...really don't have a combat role. I mean, sure, you can take a handful of frigates and kill a destroyer, but who is going to fly frigates? You fly from midshipman to captain so fast you don't even notice the frigates/scouts.
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Yes, but what about the ppl who cant subb. (like me). And the ppl who dont want to subb. They will never get anything bigger than a frig. Except kluth, i cant even get all the scouts. Anywho, who would want to get in a ton of frigs - the unsubbed ppl. wich by theway, aint that many.
I think that the unsubbed ppl, including beginers, will probably hate the game because they being KILLED 24/7. Then theres the ppl who cant get in to mv at all and have to go into beta.Im not goinng there.
I think that the one kliuth scout should be middie and one...... ONE......1 kluth frig be middie.
You cnat fly from middie to captin in one week. If you can, the coupon runs out, then the beginers log on, say "why cant i use the ships i used last night" and you say" because your not subbed" then they say "this is stupid im not payin to play a game" then they leave and never come back.
Then there are ppl like me that can tollerate that and stay and get killed 100 times over. but stay because they like it. But thats rare unlesse there going to subb.
Tell me if you want more of my mind:)
[ This Message was edited by: seeker(prophet angel)*P1* on 2008-05-10 20:23 ]
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Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
| Posted: 2008-05-10 20:53
Truth be told Tael I think that is a horrible idea - it basically turns every dread into what the 482 Flux Missile Dread was... it was that two seconds of "OH CRAP!" when it jumped in & fired its flux... then it was dead in the water & completely useless, and got pounced on. Your idea strikes me as it will give us more ED/PD style ships - little buggers that never run out of energy or ammo flying around dodging all fire & being able to continueously put out fire that will eventually wear down even a battle station. They're too quick for a dread that they are targeting to target & pointjump it, by the time you're aligned he's already moved on - and in the time it takes you to align to him you've already taken as much damage as a dread alpha from the concentrated fire.
Dreads need to be a cause for alarm again. You need to make people squeal over faction chat "OH CRAP! EAD!" again. Space the cruisers and destroyers out over some lower levels again so that more people are using them & it will balance out the dread-heavy population that ranked up off of nuking, THERE is your balance. Get more people flying the ships that are SUPPOSED to gang up on dreads, and you won't have dreads flying around soloing everything.
I'm going to be 100% honest - I couldn't give two squats about someone who doesn't sub & what they want with the end-game Metaverse. They're not contributing. I know that sounds terribly elitest and unkind to the newbies but A) What else would you expect from me?  and more importantly B) These servers cost money to maintain, and an unsubbed player is not only not contributing, but they are also created an additional strain on the server resources & increasing the bandwidth cost. DS has to be the only game that I know of that lets people fly around for free AND charges, just food for thought.
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_x$witchBladex_ [1.480 Fanboy]
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 26, 2003
Posts: 849
From: Upstate New York
| Posted: 2008-05-10 21:15
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On 2008-05-10 19:14, Nanatsu-Yoru wrote:
Tael that is a very awesome and effective reasoning.
It allows new players to not have to worry (too much) about energy reserves, and once they pick up the game mechanics and gain rank, they now have to learn how to juggle energy mangement.
It also means dreads won't go around popping scouts because they'll be so low on energy (from the alpha and/or chasing) , or in a tactically poor position.
I really really like that idea
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See, that is exactly how I have been looking at this. I feel that Dreads should be the most rewarding if flown with strategy/tactics.
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On 2008-05-10 20:20, seeker(prophet angel)*P1* wrote:
Yes, but what about the ppl who cant subb.
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This is a subscription based game. They make money on people wanting bigger and better things. It was not designed for those who just want a free game (I do feel that Coeus' elitist ways are best).
Just to throw in my 2 cents on what I have been reading: I know how many do not want dreads to be flying coffins. However, from what I have seen so far the way this is going to work is the exact opposite of how Ent put it:
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For every weakness you hit them with, they need their strengths too, or we're back to square one. Everyone using small ships, and no one using large ones.
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I see this and just think of DreadSpace...however, I do not believe that a dread should be able to own everything. In my eyes I see things in the light that it should take 3 or more destroyers to mess with a single dread, and that it should take 2 cruisers to mess with a single dread. But in return, 1 on 1 should consist of a complete beating and the dread consistently winning.
-Switch
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Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
| Posted: 2008-05-10 22:29
Right, and for dreads that comes about mostly from precision point jumping & unleashing the full wrath of high powered torps and lasers before the smaller ships can get out of dodge.
The dread still needs to be able to put some fire downrange to keep the defending ship at bay until it can recharge its JD - and it needs to be able to survive until then, that means maneuvering. While a dread isn't going to be able to dodge a whole hell of a lot of fire, it should still be able to dodge some, which means it is going to need be able to move at a fair clip without killing its energy reserves.
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Hellza - Dark Master
Fleet Admiral
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: June 06, 2004
Posts: 498
| Posted: 2008-05-10 22:32
I would rather a dreadspace then deadspace.
if dreads are just going to stand there an look pretty, why bother having ranks/pres?. i know what what you are getting at though tael.
the current number of players online at any given time does not help with any 'real' testing/observing to see what needs twinking.
now if there was 30 players on at any given up on each side. that.. would be a really good way to realy test anything.
a entire fleet of Cr, Dessys, would really hurt a fleet of dreads.
true, if the cr,dessy dont know how to fly their ships they will meet a horrible demise.
use your skills an use their dreads agaisnt them. make them FF each other. Cr,Dessy have smaller 'hull size' then the dreads. keep running around them, in a fleet you will deploy enough ammo to really hurt dreads.
keep getting the dreads to behind each other so they all cant fire at you.
if hes a noob dread, he will keep smashing spacebar he will damage his own team mate then your fleet. (it always happen) and point jumping.
three dreads or more point jumping almost, 95% of the time. will jump in the same spot an fire straight away, resaulting in damaging themselfs more then their target they just jumped at.
so the thing is, we need players 
without players, limiting it down to only 2-5 on.... it will not really bring out how the SHIPS should be flown...
my 2 cents.
[ This Message was edited by: Hellza - Dark Master on 2008-05-10 22:38 ]
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