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2:1 Balance... needs to be balanced. |
Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
|  Posted: 2008-07-20 09:02
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On 2008-07-20 07:30, Axianda The Royal wrote:
on the issue of the fleet test.
it is as Draf said earlier the lack of Shield rotation is what keeps the ICC from using the one thing htey are built on. greater defense.
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If we could get 12 people on, we could see if that makes a difference or not.
Assuming that shield rotation is a factor, then one can assume in those battles, it could be fairly even sided. But again, those are battles of equal proportions, of equal classes. How do you get that to work with actual people in game? How do you maintain those proportions neccessary to keep balance in check? What mechanisims are in place to encourage the use of any ship in an even sided battle? The system works very well under the condition that the smaller ships always outnumber the larger ones, 2 to one. But the question really is, how do you make that happen?
People wont stay at lower ranks forever, and there wont always be an influx of newbies to counter it. Besides, the existing player-base can already get most ships, so there is that too. When most real battles in DS aren't lop-sided, without a way to keep things proportional then it becomes 'whoever has the biggest ships, wins'. You could try doing a number of test battles under that assumption. I'd say we could all get together and do it (for more accurate results) but getting 12 people on is difficult at best...
-Ent
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2008-07-20 10:49
A closer comparison between relative repair times of shield and armor has unveiled a slight discrepancy in expected and actual repair rates.
I have adjusted Shield regen accordingly, and this should be in tonight's update.
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DarkSpace Developer - Retired
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2008-07-21 08:59
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On 2008-07-20 06:49, Drafell wrote:
Test 1
Team 1:
2 x Torpedo Cruiser
1 x Battle Cruiser
1 x Battle Dreadnought
1 x Elite Assault Dreadnought
Team 2:
2 x Assault Cruiser
1 x Heavy Cruiser
1 x Combat Dreadnought
1 x Assault Dreadnought
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So every time UGTO won this fight. Can't say I'm really surprised, can you run a test to see how many more reinforcements ICC would need to run about even in a win/lose ratio? IE win at least two out of five fights?
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Smartin
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 04, 2005
Posts: 1107
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2008-07-21 09:25
Ent and I did a little 1on1 last night for fun. Thought I would post the results.
HC vs BC. I was ugto ent was ICC.
Pretty quickly due to some poor piloting choices on my part, and Ent captializing like a champ on each one he had me looking like I was about to get destroyed, BUT as he neared finsihing me he ran out of ammo, and I was able to manuever my ship long enough to beat him. I ended with 23 hull I beleive.
AC vs TC. I was ugto again and ent was ICC.
This was the most boaring duel I have ever flown to be honest, but again Ent flew it exactly how he should. He came in alphaed and then tailed it out while shields regened. I jump him he jump aways then make another pass at me. It was impossible for me to really keep any kind of damage on him as he could jump away once I jumped him. He won with 89 hull left, and full sheilds. He had full shields though b/c I started jumping around on him to repay the favor.
[ This Message was edited by: Smartin on 2008-07-21 09:59 ]
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2008-07-21 10:11
Combat Dreadnought (stock) VS Carrier Dreadnought (fired ARs... think its stock)
Result:
Combat Dreadnought: Destroyed.
Carrier Dreadnought: 97% hull, 40% armor.
This around ICC friendly planet with two missile platforms and a weapons platform.
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Combat Dreadnought (stock) VS Battle Dreadnought (stock)
Result:
Combat Dreadnought: Destroyed.
Battle Dreadnought: 100% hull, 50% armor.
Same conditions as above. Want to test this again with a two vs two instead. Also inb4: Wasn't a duel either time.
[ This Message was edited by: Flounder on 2008-07-21 10:14 ]
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Feralwulf
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 24, 2004
Posts: 1729
From: sitting somewhere drinking beer
| Posted: 2008-07-21 19:45
Balance.... NASCAR tried that....succeeded.....and I stopped watching it.
Balance: ANY 1 ship vs ANY 1 ship = DRAW everytime....regardless of Pilot.
You don't believe that? Watch NASCAR.
Example:20:58:28 JBud1: "ICC CD VS. UGTO BD was no battle the BD took it no problem"
This SHOULD read: "ICC CD VS. UGTO BD Would have ended in both ships exploding had we not both ran out of ammo at the same time."
[ This Message was edited by: Feralwulf on 2008-07-21 20:01 ]
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Don't mess with old dudes...age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill!
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-07-21 19:49
Quote:
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On 2008-07-21 10:11, Bardiche wrote:
Combat Dreadnought (stock) VS Carrier Dreadnought (fired ARs... think its stock)
Result:
Combat Dreadnought: Destroyed.
Carrier Dreadnought: 97% hull, 40% armor.
This around ICC friendly planet with two missile platforms and a weapons platform.
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Combat Dreadnought (stock) VS Battle Dreadnought (stock)
Result:
Combat Dreadnought: Destroyed.
Battle Dreadnought: 100% hull, 50% armor.
Same conditions as above. Want to test this again with a two vs two instead. Also inb4: Wasn't a duel either time.
[ This Message was edited by: Flounder on 2008-07-21 10:14 ]
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Well, the Battle Dreadnought battle was unsuprising..
But against a Carrier Dread? That was just epic lulz.
-Ent
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doda *EP5 no longer exception...*
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2005
Posts: 1012
From: happy land
| Posted: 2008-07-21 22:06
now someone try a combat dreadnaught vs an agncourt dreadnaught. That might be interesting
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2008-07-22 02:51
Quote:
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On 2008-07-21 19:49, Enterprise wrote:
Well, the Battle Dreadnought battle was unsuprising..
But against a Carrier Dread? That was just epic lulz.
-Ent
[/quote]
It was rather distressing to realize the Carrier Dreadnought was killing me. I'm not sure what happened there, so I'd like to try it again. With stock Dreads, of course. Then with modded Dreads.
[ This Message was edited by: Bardiche on 2008-07-22 03:00 ]
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doda *EP5 no longer exception...*
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2005
Posts: 1012
From: happy land
| Posted: 2008-07-22 19:34
Quote:
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On 2008-07-22 02:51, Bardiche wrote:
Quote:
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On 2008-07-21 19:49, Enterprise wrote:
Well, the Battle Dreadnought battle was unsuprising..
But against a Carrier Dread? That was just epic lulz.
-Ent
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It was rather distressing to realize the Carrier Dreadnought was killing me. I'm not sure what happened there, so I'd like to try it again. With stock Dreads, of course. Then with modded Dreads.
[ This Message was edited by: Bardiche on 2008-07-22 03:00 ]
[/quote]
what happened there was you got a mouth full of 1.500
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Leonide
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 1553
From: Newport News, Virginia
| Posted: 2008-07-22 23:00
ever since the code bug was found that was calculating ICC cannon damage was found and fixed, ICC have been a fighting force against UGTO. Ent actually won a match against Coeus, coeus being UGTO. i say the factions are now balanced enough to leave them be. 
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-07-22 23:05
Yeah, I'd definitely leave it as is right now. Maybe up the ammo a little, if anything. I still ran out of ammo before the end of the fight with Coeus and had to finish him off with beams.
Also tried numerous other battles with the CD.. where actually did decent damage, for once.
Personally, it seems this code bug being fixed seems to have made a difference. I wouldn't change a thing...
-Ent
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Mastakazam *P2*
2nd Rear Admiral
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 26
From: Pickering, Ontario, Canada, Metaverse
| Posted: 2008-07-23 22:54
I think that the test battles should be armour/power tests only, with both participants not moving, just sitting side-to-side and face-to-face and various ranges... tweak the damage or armour amounts until they seem 'right' ...
true battles with ships moving involves skill, and that can't be factored in to number balancing
example results for these tests..
- missile/torpedo cruisers should crush almost any ship face-to-face, but have a significant disadvantage at its sides and rear
- carrier (dreadnought) should beat other dreads and most cruisers/dreads at long and maybe medium range, but will lose at close range
- a non-specialized combat ship should take armour of a next-class-up vessel down to around 50% at the point it is destroyed.. at lower levels, but seem to do better at higher levels where the size difference is also a bit less... like a combat scout brings a combat frigate down to 40-50% armour/shields when it's destroyed, but a cruiser brings a dreadnought to around 20-30% armour/shields at the point where the cruiser is destroyed
[ This Message was edited by: Mastakazam *P2* on 2008-07-24 15:24 ]
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Little Pet Slinki
Admiral
Joined: April 16, 2006
Posts: 836
From: United Kingdom, South West.
| Posted: 2008-08-04 20:57
Me and Coeus just had a little battle.
Coeus - Assault Dreadnaught | Slinki - Carrier Dreadnaught.
Now, The largest, presumably most powerful and destructive member of the ICC fleet, Just about took down one side of armour before he ran out of energy, and even through whatever use of tactic to try and regain that energy, I could still quite happily cruise along, jump and attack, not dropping below 100 energy, after the 2 minutes of Coeus lost all energy, even though he was cruising at about 7gu, my armour very much intact, only had one side into hull, and the others were 10 to 20% down at most, I still managed to hit everything on him, and keep hitting on him, it was absolutely pathetic.
UGTO need to be nerfed heavily, not put into consideration, no "thats how they are mean't to be, and no fanboyism on how they should be the creme de la creme of all space fleets, UGTO should and have to be nerfed down, to even start to COMPETE with other ships, nothing people put into 1.5 will be useful, if combat is UGTO running rings around crippled ICC ships.
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Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
| Posted: 2008-08-05 08:40
And anyone that knows me knows that I am well aware of energy management in ICC ships - rotational fire, selective shield usage, and I'm MORE than well aware that because of the genius fluxing idea to replace the 2nd fore armor with a 2nd fore shield on the AD without having a compensatory power generator I need to run even SLOWER.
Dread vs Dread - AD is wholley ineffective, and it almost seems intentional.
Think about this... Assault Dread - the ICC's premier anti-capital ship combat vessel, the most powerful burst damage ship in the fleet (save the Line Station which by the way you can't even go 1gu/s if you intend to fire while in that thing). And even after I destroyed all of the Carrier Dread's fighters it still couldn't keep up the with the damage output... I'll say that one more time. The Carrier Dreadnought - a support class vessle - without ANY of its fighters, was outdamaging an Anti-Capital Assault Dreadnought. Yeah I when I had charged weapons I could unleash a nice volly of hurt. And then I had to sit still for about 30 seconds & take the continued pounding of the Carrier Dread while I tried to charge my weapons.
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