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public poll for beta |
BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
|  Posted: 2008-09-24 15:44
Quote:
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On 2008-09-24 15:27, Pakhos wrote:
you are attempting to change game in a way of we are not use to play.
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Tough luck?
The changes aren't huge at all. Get used to them. Really, I struggly to think how the changes we've put in are SO drastic that all of a sudden it's a completely different game.
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Smartin
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 04, 2005
Posts: 1107
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2008-09-24 18:20
Quote:
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On 2008-09-24 15:44, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Quote:
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On 2008-09-24 15:27, Pakhos wrote:
you are attempting to change game in a way of we are not use to play.
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Tough luck?
The changes aren't huge at all. Get used to them. Really, I struggly to think how the changes we've put in are SO drastic that all of a sudden it's a completely different game.
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Not to play the devils advocate here but...
- Changed cloak to use the "V" key, in keeping with other faction special abilties.
I really don't feel the kluth stand a chance anymore if they can't even cloak using the K key.
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The Master Debator
Cadet
Joined: July 03, 2008
Posts: 114
| Posted: 2008-09-24 18:40
Quote:[/small]
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On 2008-09-24 18:20, Smartin wrote:
Not to play the devils advocate here but...
- Changed cloak to use the "V" key, in keeping with other faction special abilties.
I really don't feel the kluth stand a chance anymore if they can't even cloak using the K key.
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I would have to agree here, theres just something about "K" that "V" doesn't embody
[ This Message was edited by: Doran on 2008-09-24 19:26 ]
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Hellza - Dark Master
Fleet Admiral
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: June 06, 2004
Posts: 498
| Posted: 2008-09-24 19:13
Seriously, is it TOO hard to just LEAVE it on "K"?
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Lacrosseian
Fleet Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: October 01, 2004
Posts: 1254
| Posted: 2008-09-24 20:09
Shigernafy gave a reply to this post here:
http://www.jack-online.co.uk/ds/readarticle.php?article_id=102
He was unable to log onto the site when he wished to reply due to other circumstances.
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Feralwulf
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 24, 2004
Posts: 1729
From: sitting somewhere drinking beer
| Posted: 2008-09-24 21:13
Quote:
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On 2008-09-24 01:48, Pakhos wrote:
Is this the new version of DS we want to see?
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Yes. It is almost exactly what the playerbase has all but demanded.
Dreads are DREADS again.
Dictors are useless.
It won't take 20 ships 3 days to kill a Dessie.
No more Torp MDs, All p cannon EDs and PDs.
No more UGTO/ICC flying around with PSI Cannons and AM Torps.
No more flying to Sol from Sirius (and vice versea) on a tank of gas....OR Worm Hole there on one WH.
No more solo bombing of planets.
No more beacon spam...who wants to lose the pres for it?
I would estimate that 95% of what 1.5 will be is EXACTLY what 95% of the playerbase (over the last 3 years) has Demanded.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2008-09-24 21:28
As Lacro posted, here's my response. I don't think, despite having written it when Jack was the only one to have replied, that it really needs any changing.
First off, don’t take this as a tear down post. I’m not trying to attack you or anything, just provide some reasoning as to why the changes you mentioned occurred.
Also, historically, DS development has been heavily influenced by player comments and preferences. This continues to an extent into 1.5, but by this point the majority of the changes are complete, and thus it might seem like player concerns are being ignored. They’re not, but we also have had the current balance in place for a rather long time now, and it operates reasonably well. And when it was being crafted, there was player input.. its just that by now the time for suggestions is somewhat past.
That said, if there’s something we didn’t take into account, it can be changed. And as 1.5 gets more play testing (while in beta or after release) we’ll do our best to be responsive to problems discovered or imbalances.
Getting to your comments.
First of all, ship balance
- This is obviously a complicated and controversial topic. I’ve tried my best to give some explanations for the various complaints you brought up below. Its long – I apologize, but I tried to be thorough and give reasoning and examples where I could. And if you have any questions about anything on here or want to follow up with something, keep replying – that’s certainly not a problem.
Ships are balanced such that that low ranked players will always get killed.
- Yes, more or less. Smaller ships are less powerful than larger ones; nothing crazy there. In the past, ship classes made very little difference in terms of strength – though a destroyer might have half the firepower of a dread, it could dodge most of the dread’s shots; while the dread had twice the armor, it couldn’t dodge anything. This meant that, in practice, there was a very flat playing field. It also doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. We don’t want to have every ship class below dread be pointless, but there should be a point to gaining rank, to flying bigger ships. Small ships might not have much combat prowess, but they should still have utility.
This is probably the point of balance that has gotten the most feedback, though; while we think that we have struck a decent balance between making rank and class have a point and not having one ship dominate the game, there may be room for improvement. Unfortunately, this sort of thing is hard to test effectively – you can’t exactly have a duel of a destroyer and dread and expect it to tell you much.. we’d need larger scale, more realistic battles.
That said, smaller ships may be weaker, but they still can dodge better, recharge their jump drives faster, and jump further – so don’t try to take on ships vastly larger than you; leave and get help. The game is supposed to be about strategy and teamwork, in theory.. not “any ship works as well as any other”.
Ship can’t be modded anymore.
- That’s not entirely true, but modding is vastly more restrictive than the current 1.483 version. And while its in many players’ natures to like customizability and it provides some fun to be able to tweak one’s ship (though not so much the having to click upgrade 412 times), its hell to balance. Now, you seem to think that the balance is pants as well, but with free modding, you get things like escort destroyers. You get torp missile dreads. You get ships not fulfilling the roles for which they were intended and thus presenting balance problems. The MD is designed to be a missile ship, and is balanced for that; tossing 20 torps on it causes all sorts of headaches from the perspective of a game designer.
The idea is to allow certain modifications where the weapons being changed don’t vastly differ in strength or use. Thus, you can swap various kinds of electronic warfare (ecm <-> eccm) or go from scl to pulse. But torps and missiles are not serving the same function; cannons and beams do not serve the same function. Nor are either of them roughly equivalent in strength. It may be less fun, but in theory it allows for a better balance – and one of the chief complaints over the years is with ship balance. The easiest way (and after some debate with devs over the years, I think the only effective way) to achieve workable ship balance is via very strict modding rules.
The preferred tradeoff is having more ships available: if you want a dread that’s got lots of torps, you can have one – but it won’t have as many slots as will the same class of missile ship, for example. The ideal is that there would be a ship for any given desired ship role, and it would be balanced appropriately. But letting players make their own roles is opening the pandora’s box of balance (only it lacks hope at the bottom).
You can only exchange P cannons with EMP cannons.
- See above and below; hopefully the general argument against modding is clear enough that I don’t have to explain every example of restrictions.
You can’t exchange anything for the standard chemical laser.
- I don’t have access to the code or game right now, but I was under the impression that ICC could swap pulse beams for CLs. Otherwise, you’re right – small beams are designed for point defense, while large beams are designed for a heavy hitting last punch to an up close ship as you charge or strafe them. Exchanging them for something destroys their intended use: close range, damage depends on range, energy intensive, medium recharge. Cannons are none of the above; torps share the recharge duration and energy; missiles are none. Why is it good to exchange them again?
Can’t mount missiles instead of torpedoes or vice-versa.
- For good reason; see above.
EAD and AD have 4 core weapons.
- First off, core weapons are not the core weapons you’re used to. They basically act like a large torp, not a Weapon of Instant Destruction. So having four of them isn’t as bad as you might think. And that’s now the hallmark of the Elite class ships; just think of them as having a handful of torps in addition to their loadout, except these torps move faster and cost a lot more energy. And damage your friends more.
Krill (new K’Luth ship) has 7 SI on it.
- See above. And apparently K’Luth live by the motto of “go big or go home.”
Fuels on ship dropped to between 2k and 5k.
- This issue has been dealt with extensively in the thread devoted to it on the beta forums. Basically, you can still jump at least a system over, based on your ship class. The restriction, however, is meant to add a bit more of a tactical limiter to players’ behavior; without effectively infinite fuel (as it is currently), players don’t have the freedom to jump around constantly during battle. Jumping becomes more valuable and subject to planning. It also will hopefully encourage more team play, since supplies will be that much more important.
If it ends up being a huge problem after more testing, we can up things slightly.. or alternately put a planet with Hydrogen on it not too far from gates so its possible to refuel.
UGTO CD has an HMA with 8k fuel.
- Ok. Are you pointing it out because its higher than the fuel on tachyon drives? If that’s the case, I assume it is because the burn rate isn’t the same – the HMA moves ships more slowly, and since burn rate is based on time, not distance, it needs more fuel to get as far as the other drives. In other words, its inefficient and thus has a larger gas tank – like a Suburban carrying 45 gallons or whatever they do.
Station can’t open wormhole to next system (it only reaches from the home planet to the gate).
- Restrictions on wormholes are also, I believe, explained in rather substantial depth in some thread somewhere. But the basic point is that back in the days of yore, when Darkspace had “hundreds in the server at once” (according to random nostalgic people; the only times it’d break 100 was during free trials), there used to be some strategery to using gates. There used to be significance to owning a system because you could control movement throughout the MV. It forced tactics and strategy on people – oh, the horror! Wormholes and shipyards killed that. With a wormhole, you can amass a fleet and zap the entire thing across the ENTIRE MV in a single bound. It destroyed the idea of a front line. It destroyed firebreaks. It destroyed the point of gates. It made the game more arcade style and immediate, which was actually quite nice, but on balance I think it took away from the game. Thus, they were reduced to in-system travel. If you want to sling your entire force into battle at once, WHs will still work… you just get to do it from across the system rather than across the MV.
Meaning that they’re now just a device which makes it unnecessary for a fleet to put Bito on follow and then crash into a planet.
UGTO destroyers have beacons on them which cannot be swapped for anything.
- This dovetails with the modding discussion, in that beacons aren’t like anything else, so it makes sense not to have them swappable for them. But even more so, beacons are very powerful against the K’Luth, so having them able to be put on any ship which has a laser or cannon was enough to make cloak pointless as soon as it was dropped the first time – you may have noticed the problems we have with beacons now. So having them restricted is great.
If you just mean the “UGTO destroyers” part, in that its pointless, then that’s something we’ll have to look at. I know beacons are supposed to be pretty rare, again for teamwork purposes, so I’m not sure what ships should have them offhand.
ECM, ECCM and scanner only can be changed between one another.
- See above.
You can not mod generators at all.
- See above, and also note that generators can make a decent difference to a ship, so having them easily moddable is potentially a large imbalance. Plus, controlling energy levels are a very effective way to balance ships – K’Luth, for example, might have low energy levels coupled with high-cost and powerful weapons; this means they can pack a punch in a volley, but not indefinitely. It’s a check on weapon power, basically. So we’re hesitant to make that very easy to change.
Battle Dread has 2 QST on it.
- I’m not sure what about this statement is the problem.
EAD has 3 flux beams which can’t changed with other weapons.
- I think you know my response by now.
The K’Luth Nymph frigate can kill an UGTO and ICC frigate in one battle without getting hulled.
- That could be a problem. Good fighting, though.
Support Stations have 2 core weapons.
- I’m not sure what about this statement is the problem.
Can’t see small ships from 100 gu away even with no ECM.
- Well, some of that might be intentional.. but that might also be too much. Though I have to wonder: what is a “small ship?” Where they shooting anything? Flying at top speed? Was there any other source of ECM nearby? All of those things affect the ability to see other ships, so further testing would be necessary before we absolutely declare this a problem.
Ds is getting very predictable.
I’m not sure why you say this. If its just in that there is less customizability, then perhaps you’re right. But otherwise, I’m not sure I follow.
Is this the new version of DS we want to see?
Is it ideal? No, I wouldn’t say so. Is it good? I hope so. Is it better than the current version? I think so.
You are free to form your own opinions, but hopefully they are more positive than I would fear from some recent comments I’ve seen from you.[i]
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2008-09-25 00:12
Well thanks for some good answers. As u can notice , i havent say anything like 1.5 sucks or worst than the one we have. I needed to clear this first of all. There some real cool changes i have to admit.Grapichis and sound effects rock.
I may be wrong or misunderstood about my first post. What i would like to see happening is more player get involve about beta and changes. But i cant deny some changes are realy drastic for me.
Maybe because i am old school and want to see things in that way.Anyway i will try to explain.
Ship balance and modding : I think , best part of the game in older ds version was suprise ships. Such as flux destroyer or dread. You could mount scb,cannons,flux wave, flux beams, any kind of missile on a standart launch slot. Before jump on a supply we always used to think twice. What about assault cruiser? Mix 3 kind of mines and lay everywhere? What about claw and mandis with full of cl2k? My point is game was more fun with open moding way. the way of 1.5 has modding , makes ships very predictible. I will see anyship and i can tell what it has on it. Missile dread with ar missile or it missile. Not hard to guess.
About fuel usage and wh . Ok i admit that you want more team play on mv . Ok we get a supply with us everytime.This is not a big problem when u get a supply. But wh at least, 1 system farther musts reach to avoid camped and mined gate. Otherwise we will have to sacrife one ship everytime before go in to gate to see if it is mined or no.
Anyone who plays kluth on current mv would say : 7 si on a ship? exaggerated!! as long as core weapons are not the core weapons we are used to, there is no point to have so much si on a ship. Better give kluth a missile dread or something like it.Giving too much core weapon on any dread ship would make the game less enjoyable to lower ranks players. I wouldnt care about it at all. But i love ds and want nobody to whine about it later.
Beacons problem: Remove it from all ships and allow only scout to use it. Then we can talk about team play. Someone musts get a scout to do the job.
Energy problem : A kluth ship cant run at max speed while cloaked. Consuming too much energy. Siphon gets out of energy after 2 solvos at 10 gu speed. Cant cloak any more. So ,there is where a battle ship need to be modified with energy but no ECM/ECCM.
About 95% of players . I realy dont know if we play the same game. I daily play and i daily talk with people on mv about how things must be done to balance things out. I realy dont know why none of them post something here.
Ayway , i would like to see other people to post something about the 1.5 they want to see and play.
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Winters Rapture
Fleet Admiral
United Nations Space Command
Joined: December 09, 2007
Posts: 355
| Posted: 2008-09-25 15:25
well ok, here is something i would like to see.
I Have noticed some differences in 1.500 with the fighters, they are doing great but i still see 1 fatal flaw-u still cant give them any orders, they only do 1 thing, attack and go back to base, i think it would be a great addiction to the game if you could order your fighters into flight patterns & give them defend, scout, (and maybe cap) orders.
i dont think this would be very hard, and i dont see to many problems with it, but if u cant even order ur fighters to defend, then what use is the "interceptor" class of fighters. and to be able to send your "scout fighters" on a scouting order would give a great advantage, and more depth to DS.
Well, i am not sure how hard it would be, or if it would be implemented, but i think it would only benefit DS. hope to get some of that good ole Dev feed back.
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Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
| Posted: 2008-09-25 17:28
I believe there is a fighter thread on the beta forums (Please tell me that you've checked there) and I do remember it being mentioned that the fighter interface is planned, but there is no way it can be implimented anytime soon - so hold up all of 1.5 for a little addition like that which will still need to be tested balanced bugfixed & whatnot? Or release 1.5 and from there on out there can be subsequent patches that'll have the ability to be rolled back due to the SVN environment thats been created with 1.5.
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Daylight \"The Beginning\"
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 24, 2002
Posts: 608
From: Oregon, USA
| Posted: 2008-09-25 17:54
Confused, hate lag...hate lag...want DS to play...hate lag...want ships to be realistic, want battle to be fun but ballanced...hate lag...big ships should destroy little IF they can get drop on them, TACTICS, REALISM...hate LAG! Little ships should be able to harrasse big ones...
COME ON ALREADY!
hate lag!
LOVE old DS, miss it bad.
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Thugomatic
Chief Marshal
Joined: August 11, 2003
Posts: 166
From: Missoula Montana
| Posted: 2008-09-25 18:13
What exactly were the reasons for the cloak change(firing while cloaked)
If memory serves correctly human vessels of the same class of the luthies had more eccm slots so that you could still see the kluth ship coming at ya.
Dont worry im not fighting too see it come back atm because last thing i wanna see is another big hold up on the release of 1.5 which all in all looks much better than the current version.
This heavy restriction of moddings has been in the works since my time began here, yet at every patch players were (includeing myself) against this.
However this time I hopes u guys stick too ur guns. This could actually be a big benefit I never looked at until the TD torpedo dread/missile dread and the ED and PD totally smashed the purpose and roles of ships. Along with others but those are the most notable ones.
And besides possibly, I repeat possibly in the future there could be different torpedo types and IT types an AR's, cannons etc.
Oh ya almost forgots wat are the odds of slapping Hcls on the AC and TC along wit RA's on the scale. You know just take away the regular cl's except for a couple for anti missle fighter stuff.(kind of a return too 1480ish)
My heavily inflated 2 cents
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Winters Rapture
Fleet Admiral
United Nations Space Command
Joined: December 09, 2007
Posts: 355
| Posted: 2008-09-25 18:26
lol, they still say its gunna take a while, and i still hold with (whats the rush).
you've got to remember, if they try to rush it out, it will be alot like the current one... i doubt anyone would want that.
so i say, take ur time, work everything out, and add what the devs think, its not a race, and trying to hurry it up on the forum will do little good, it will release when it is good and ready.
and, i did see the fighter topic on the beta forum, i posed on it, but it got burried, and i dont like to reserrect old topics.
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Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
| Posted: 2008-09-25 18:53
If you're going to post something relivent and new then yeah, go rez, but if you're going to post for the sake of saying "lol" "i agree" or "whenz dis happeningz?" then you might as well make a thread called "i leik tuttles" & post all that there, confine it to one area if you will. Get my point?
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2008-09-25 21:09
this is kinda off topic but kinda not - basically its about what id call the experience you should be aiming for in development
when the current patch was first released, one thing that was absolutely amazing was to be a dreadnaught, and have a whole fleet of destroyers and frigates flying in an actual formation with you, each filling a particular role (recon, interdiction, cover, etc) while the larger players filled major roles (bombing, major engagements, and planning). i believe i read a review of DS at the beginning of this patch as well, that went on at length about how absolutely awesome it was to watch wings of destroyers and frigates running at eachother, and then realize that above and below you were missiles and fighters from the dreadnaughts from either side pelting away at one another, and then realize that you were dodging fire from these dreadnaughts while engaging other smaller craft, and just get the feeling for how epic a battle it was. it was also fun to be able to strategize with all these smaller ships - since they could avoid hits, they could create distractions for much longer than a cruiser or dreadnaught could, meaning they were good for luring big slow fleets away from important locations while others snuck up behind em
(my favorite moment was having a fleet of destroyers and frigates + 1 or 2 cruisers lead a fleet of UGTO dreadnaughts and stations away from their base of operations, and then myself and a teammate jump in behind them in bomber dreadnaughts and level it, leaving them defenseless)
basically what im saying is, the broader experience is more important than each individual ship or how you can modify it. yes, that adds an interesting new dynamic to the game (can we mod a fleet that does something that no other fleet can, for instance? ICC jump cruisers before they were dropped were very unique like that, because they could WH around and make PCM clouds, and then disappear (which is definitely a tactic the kluth should be able to do and not ICC))
i definitely hope the new patch creates this atmosphere, because it was amazing, and i definitely rate it as one of my most exciting experiences playing the game. i was super giddy =)
on the flip side, not being able to reach deep into enemy territory is sort of a bummer, but so long as we are still able to do it, even if it takes longer, im happy.
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