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DarkSpace a peer to peer (or P2P) Network propsal. |
DarkSpin
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From: Somewhere in the USA
|  Posted: 2008-10-13 23:12
A peer to peer (or P2P) computer network uses diverse connectivity between participants in a network and the cumulative bandwidth of network participants rather than conventional centralized resources where a relatively low number of servers provide the core value to a service or application. This would help with new users downloading the game and would help shed off the load of the Low bandwidth DarkSpace has. In reality a Palestar server would be dedicated to the distribution of the DarkSpace files when an update is available or when a new user is downloading the game... The way the P2P system works would allow DarkSpace to grow as the games population grows as the actual players and users of DarkSpace would all be helping each other get and distribute the various files that DarkSpace has. It would help with the low bandwidth of the official Palestar/DarkSpace servers by having each connected client help with the downloading of the various files for DarkSpace particularly during high download periods when many people are downloading the larger DarkSpace files such as the DarkSpace Installer.
I had previously brought this up but I do think that this should be carefully considered as DarkSpace does not have allot of bandwidth and this would help with the low bandwidth that DarkSpace does have.
Edit: Advantages of P2P networks
An important goal in P2P networks is that all clients provide resources, including bandwidth, storage space, and computing power. Thus, as nodes arrive and demand on the system increases, the total capacity of the system also increases. This is not true of a client-server architecture with a fixed set of servers, in which adding more clients could mean slower data transfer for all users.
The distributed nature of P2P networks also increases robustness in case of failures by replicating data over multiple peers, and -- in pure P2P systems -- by enabling peers to find the data without relying on a centralized index server. In the latter case, there is no single point of failure in the system.
Edit More: Security
Anonymity
Main article: Anonymous P2P
Some P2P protocols (such as Freenet) attempt to hide the identity of network users by passing all traffic through intermediate nodes.
Encryption
Some P2P networks encrypt the traffic flows between peers.
This may help to:
* make it harder for an ISP to detect that peer-to-peer technology is being used (as some artificially limit bandwidth)
* hide the contents of the file from eavesdroppers
* impede efforts towards law enforcement or censorship of certain kinds of material
* authenticate users and prevent 'man in the middle' attacks on protocols
* aid in maintaining anonymity
[ This Message was edited by: ForFax on 2008-10-13 23:20 ]
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Eledore Massis [R33]
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From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2008-10-14 12:38
Adding p2p functionality to GCQL update sounds nice but consider what your asking. You are asking Paying players to distribute there game and allow him no control over the p2p function resulting in extra latancy when ever he is being used as a peer. Or even in the case you allow some p2p control people will automatically go for the "I WANT NO LAG" attitude.
The idea is nice but not something anyone is waiting for. Not to mention forcing our coder "Richard" to work on adding p2p to GCQL, while other sections of GCQL or DS could better use the attention.
There is however one other idea on the table that can help DS with distribution, but this one will have to be something Faustus will have to think hard about since there are some concerns.
Community Provided mirror's, players could talk to the staff about helping DS by hosting a Update mirror. This would either be just hosting raw data by means of a webserver or a Small program that preforms almost the same function as a p2p client. (Just that this program updates its content data)(think Steam content server).
Both have a advantage and disadvantage, and it is up to Faustus to say i do this or the other one or NEITHER.
my 3 solid euro cents.
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DarkSpin
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From: Somewhere in the USA
| Posted: 2008-10-14 17:01
Well the solution to that is to limit the upload speed to a very very low setting like 1-5KB/s even if only 25 people were playing or connected to darkspace that would give 125KB/s Of upload power on top of the DarkSpace servers. But some like me will be manualy setting it to a much higher value than 5KB/s as I have 60KB/s total upload with a low end Qwest DSL line. So it is very unlikely that incorperateing a P2P network with DarkSpace will have any inpact on the games performance at all.
[ This Message was edited by: ForFax on 2008-10-14 17:03 ]
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Eledore Massis [R33]
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From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2008-10-14 17:47
Its not only about speed it is, about the connection.
Yes you could use a low and slow p2p connections but those are kind of slow.
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DarkSpin
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From: Somewhere in the USA
| Posted: 2008-10-14 20:16
Quote:
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On 2008-10-14 17:47, Eledore[NL] wrote:
Its not only about speed it is, about the connection.
Yes you could use a low and slow p2p connections but those are kind of slow.
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The purpose of it would be to help with low bandwidth on the DarkSpace servers giving them more bandwidth power by having both the official servers and the many clients DarkSpace has to help distribute the files... the DarkSpace servers have a Maximum bandwidth cap of 1.5MB/s I believe but I could be wrong... I just know it is not much bandwidth.
By using a P2P Network it would do two things...
1. Free up bandwidth on the official servers that would otherwise be used to distribute the files.
2. As the player base grows the P2P networks power grows right along with it enabling the DarkSpace servers to dedicate there bandwidth on the actual game and the website.
Currently the Bandwidth of the DarkSpace servers are capped at: roughly 70KB/s-80KB/s If P2P was brought in it would do this assuming the cap was 70KB/s on the DarkSpace servers: 70KB/s + with only 10 people at 5KB/s upload... the total bandwidth power would be: 120KB/s That is a 50% Increase of power on the system with just 5KB/s the average dsl and cable provider offers much more than 50KB/s Upload this is why it would not increase lag on the system... If we had all of the users on DarkSpace upload at 15KB/s that would increase the networks power to: 250KB/s that is a power increase of over 100% so you see it would eventually get to the point where the DarkSpace servers were not used at all and that would free up the DarkSpace servers bandwidth for the clients in the game reducing lag as the servers would then have more bandwidth available for users in game.
[ This Message was edited by: ForFax on 2008-10-14 20:42 ]
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Eledore Massis [R33]
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From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2008-10-15 09:06
.. actually your arguments all are correct, i am just hitting my head against one problem.
This will only clear extra bandwidth if a totally new player would install the game.
(unless you have the intention to p2p the server activity in that case i salute you on your entry to the psychiatric ward.)
yes for distribution it sounds perfect, but when there is no one to distribute to, it feels like wasted programming time that could be better used elsewhere. at least that's how it sounds to me.
The other thing that bothers me is what will happen when the Dev's do there magic, when we get updates.
I doubt you can think in packets but as it comes with my job, one day i woke up and found myself in the world of "warriors of the net". When a update is spread out the first thing people who where still in the servers will do is hit the UPDATE button. This is absolutely fine for the server when you have around 8 people or so. But when you have a population of lets say 20 and give or take 40 LobbyCampers who press the update button at the same time it creates a wall of TCP packets to the DS update server. The server will be the only seeder at the time with the new date, so even if it might not like the TCP spam, no one will notice it because no one could be playing without the update.
Again in these situation p2p works because no one is playing the game and the more people having bits of the update the more they can share with one another, releasing server strain the philosophy of p2p.
So yes this can work!
But lets lookt at it from the other side.
Considering every player has a maximal of TCP connection of 32768 bps (for those who still remember the /bps command), and the same number for the UDP connection yes the DS connection is getting clogged. .. .. lets say 25 people on the server at max tcp would be 25*32=800kbps and dubble that because of the UDP 1600 hmm devided by 1024 = 1,5625 Mbps. i think thats the full extend of the game servers bandwidth. But keeping in mind that the UDP connections are variable we should be able to have 30 or so players in the MV.
As you said the Maximum bandwidth is 1.5MB/s for a single connection. (Note: not bandwidth CAP, since that is a allowed mass of data in a period of time.) but if i recall PaleStar had multiple lines, i don't recall the exact number. The ideal number to me would be four lines or more but i don't pay for the connections. (Web, MV, Update, Dev.)
[ This Message was edited by: Eledore[NL] on 2008-10-15 09:15 ]
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DarkSpin
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From: Somewhere in the USA
| Posted: 2008-10-15 12:46
Quote:
|
On 2008-10-15 09:06, Eledore[NL] wrote:
.. actually your arguments all are correct, i am just hitting my head against one problem.
This will only clear extra bandwidth if a totally new player would install the game.
(unless you have the intention to p2p the server activity in that case i salute you on your entry to the psychiatric ward.)
yes for distribution it sounds perfect, but when there is no one to distribute to, it feels like wasted programming time that could be better used elsewhere. at least that's how it sounds to me.
The other thing that bothers me is what will happen when the Dev's do there magic, when we get updates.
I doubt you can think in packets but as it comes with my job, one day i woke up and found myself in the world of "warriors of the net". When a update is spread out the first thing people who where still in the servers will do is hit the UPDATE button. This is absolutely fine for the server when you have around 8 people or so. But when you have a population of lets say 20 and give or take 40 LobbyCampers who press the update button at the same time it creates a wall of TCP packets to the DS update server. The server will be the only seeder at the time with the new date, so even if it might not like the TCP spam, no one will notice it because no one could be playing without the update.
Again in these situation p2p works because no one is playing the game and the more people having bits of the update the more they can share with one another, releasing server strain the philosophy of p2p.
So yes this can work!
But lets lookt at it from the other side.
Considering every player has a maximal of TCP connection of 32768 bps (for those who still remember the /bps command), and the same number for the UDP connection yes the DS connection is getting clogged. .. .. lets say 25 people on the server at max tcp would be 25*32=800kbps and dubble that because of the UDP 1600 hmm devided by 1024 = 1,5625 Mbps. i think thats the full extend of the game servers bandwidth. But keeping in mind that the UDP connections are variable we should be able to have 30 or so players in the MV.
As you said the Maximum bandwidth is 1.5MB/s for a single connection. (Note: not bandwidth CAP, since that is a allowed mass of data in a period of time.) but if i recall PaleStar had multiple lines, i don't recall the exact number. The ideal number to me would be four lines or more but i don't pay for the connections. (Web, MV, Update, Dev.)
[ This Message was edited by: Eledore[NL] on 2008-10-15 09:15 ]
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As you said the Maximum bandwidth is 1.5MB/s for a single connection.
That is not for a single connection that is the maximum bandwith for the servers... they can not exceed 1.5MB/s it is 1.5MB/s for all useing the DarkSpace/Palestar servers.
[ This Message was edited by: ForFax on 2008-10-15 12:46 ]
[ This Message was edited by: ForFax on 2008-10-15 12:47 ]
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Eledore Massis [R33]
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From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2008-10-16 13:16
I hate my fast translation to english.
1.544Mb/s, so yes that is the maximum possible bandwidth for all connections going trough a single T1 line.
But if i recall PaleStar (DarkSpace) had multiple T1 lines. I don't know the exact number however, it could be just be two.
p.s. we have been going back and forth, .. might be nice to have a dev's view on this. or even Faustus.
[ This Message was edited by: Eledore[NL] on 2008-10-16 18:22 ]
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DarkSpin
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From: Somewhere in the USA
| Posted: 2008-10-20 00:07
Quote:
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On 2008-10-16 13:16, Eledore[NL] wrote:
I hate my fast translation to english.
1.544Mb/s, so yes that is the maximum possible bandwidth for all connections going trough a single T1 line.
But if i recall PaleStar (DarkSpace) had multiple T1 lines. I don't know the exact number however, it could be just be two.
p.s. we have been going back and forth, .. might be nice to have a dev's view on this. or even Faustus.
[ This Message was edited by: Eledore[NL] on 2008-10-16 18:22 ]
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From what I was geting in a convo a few weeks ago with some mods/admin there is only 1 atm... but if and when we get popular again we will go back to colocated hosting were we will have full speed connections.
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DarkSpin
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From: Somewhere in the USA
| Posted: 2009-01-07 12:13
Bump and...
I think it would help to introduce PTP network to the lobby client to help distruibute updates and the game itself and would also benifit the new users. Have it trancver at a up cap of 10kbps per GCQL client... I know this is a tuchy subject but it may be just what the doctor ordered with the servers bandwith limits...
[ This Message was edited by: DarkSpin [repent] on 2009-01-07 12:15 ]
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