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The issue of Dreadspace |
Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
|  Posted: 2009-02-23 15:46
First off, I'd like to say that this is an open forum on the issue of 'Dreadspace' - Where Dreadnoughts are being flown as the mainstay of all fleets, not just one faction, in place of the multiple ships meant to be flown with Dreadnoughts as heavy support craft. I'd like to see more detailed comments. If you're going to post an idea or a commnet, please read a majority of the post so that you may find an idea and build on it.
Now, the issue of Dreadspace is something that has been around since 1.5 Beta. It's something that does effect us all in game, because it makes it harder for newer players to fly combat ships in fleet engagements and feel like a contribution, other then a sacrifice. It makes it hard for Darkspace to be called a true skill based game as well. You can take on a Dread in a cruiser, but the chances of you being able to kill it are slim.
We, as a community, need to come up with a solution that does not benefit anyone heavily, but fixes the problem. The obvious player base benefited would be lower ranked players, but it would not be a game breaking thing for the Dreadspace issue to be fixed.
It's hard to come up with a good solution to the Dreadspace problem that does not heavily limit or restrict players who can fly Dreads, and it's hard to come up with a way that makes things balanced. But it is possible somehow, and I'd like to see every ones ideas and comments on the issue.
- Crim
[ This Message was edited by: Crim {Fear?} on 2009-02-23 16:01 ]
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Little Pet Slinki
Admiral
Joined: April 16, 2006
Posts: 836
From: United Kingdom, South West.
| Posted: 2009-02-23 15:51
Re-Introduce a resource based economy, that requires FLEETS to buy dreadnaughts for their fleetmates - this will be based off many factors, the main being the cost of the dreadnaught (in resources), but other factors can include how many hours played that week (Say 30 Total Hours per fleet per dreadnaught) or how many total prestige points the fleet has accumilated.
This could go for stations too.
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Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
| Posted: 2009-02-23 15:56
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On 2009-02-23 15:51, Little Pet Slinki, The Inane wrote:
Re-Introduce a resource based economy, that requires FLEETS to buy dreadnaughts for their fleetmates - this will be based off many factors, the main being the cost of the dreadnaught (in resources), but other factors can include how many hours played that week (Say 30 Total Hours per fleet per dreadnaught) or how many total prestige points the fleet has accumilated.
This could go for stations too.
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A really good Idea, I think. I've always wanted to see the economic system of Darkspace gain a bit of depth, and this could be a very good way. While it does limit some, it encourages Fleets to work together and it's always a good ways for new players to get in on helping fleet and faction field a powerful fleet.
[Edit]Not to promote, but this is something EvE does well. The corporations usually do mining ops (Definatley not saying we need these) and ratting to earn money for their Capital fleet to field Dreadnoughts, Carriers, and Titans(Replace those with our stations). It's worked really well for them, and I think it would work here with some work.
[ This Message was edited by: Crim {Fear?} on 2009-02-23 15:59 ]
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2009-02-23 15:57
The present resource system doesn't work, indeed, as some people can still deck out a four-man Station party, and have room for more. (*cough*)
But yes, I actually flew a Cruiser earlier today but there's little use when there's ohgodsomanydreads that I don't really think it's sensible to fly a smaller craft when the big craft have all the guns.
I've yet to test and see if a wolfpack of Cruisers can disable Dreads faster than a wolfpack of Dreads.
Five ADs versus a Krill as opposed to five ACs versus a Krill.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2009-02-23 16:14
One of the biggest issues with Dreadspace is also the lack of smaller class's usefulness even when they are not present.
Simply put, combat between ships that are not Dreadnoughts tends to be alot more longer and drawn out, it lacks the faced paced action that tends to occur with only bigger ships.
Because of the long drawn out ways in which it works, combat between smaller ships actually takes alot longer than if say, a larger ship came in and dealt with the smaller ship. Just from experience, this has been so. There's no real incentive to fly anything smaller, even against other smaller ships. They may be easier to hit, but a Dread still manages to kill it faster by sheer virtue of firepower.
Smaller classes don't have to be more powerful than dreadnoughts or even be able to kill one, but they need to at least be useful enough to be neccessary on the field of battle, otherwise, no matter how many limitations you put on Dreads, they will still be the thing people go for.
-Ent
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Light404
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 10, 2002
Posts: 54
| Posted: 2009-02-23 16:26
Dreadspace can be an issue yes, but its simply a matter of newer players getting experience, following the vets around and learning. Example: Myself and point of no return where fighting 3 luth dreads at the same time in our Heavy cruisers. Got one of em down to 10% hull before he jumped then worked the armour of a second before deciding to bail. The damage to return was minimal and i'd suffered 45% hull damage by the end of it
Having said that, I'd love to see the credit system reintroduced along with being able to buy upgrades for your ship
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2009-02-23 16:30
I agree with the idea that the largest ships should be significant drains on a faction's resources, and as it is they are working towards being that.
The main problem, however, is that once you spawn a ship for the first time (i.e. "build" it), it's forever in your garage until you throw it away. When it explodes it mysteriously reconstitutes itself at critical health levels at the nearest shipyard.
Thus: While the complete loss of ships from the garage was always inconvenient and annoying, the new mechanism shouldn't be a way to avoid having to pay resources for a replacement ship. As it is, if your incredibly expensive assault dreadnaught explodes, you lose nothing but pres and the time to repair it. If you had to pay for a replacement ship, not only would you have a personal loss, but your faction will have lost the resources that were spent building that dreadnaught.
On a related note, perhaps all repairs should require resources, too. Repairing that dreadnaught from 1% hull is going to take a lot of resources, either in the form of resources directly from a planet or resources converted to reload drones, so fielding too many is going to exhaust allied logistics and force players to either use damaged ships, fall back, or resort to smaller craft.
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2009-02-23 16:35
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On 2009-02-23 16:30, Gejaheline wrote:
On a related note, perhaps all repairs should require resources, too. Repairing that dreadnaught from 1% hull is going to take a lot of resources, either in the form of resources directly from a planet or resources converted to reload drones, so fielding too many is going to exhaust allied logistics and force players to either use damaged ships, fall back, or resort to smaller craft.
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I was thinking earlier today how it'd make sense that, if you refill at a planet, you'd use resources.
I would like to see a return of building come. As it stands, planets mostly get built by AI, and save from Shipyard planets nobody really -builds- anything anymore. I'm incredibly saddened by this because I want to build planets again and see how they fare against bombers.
Sometimes I miss the previous' versions swift action, where just about everyone could participate in the action so long as they were Destroyer-class.
Shoot me now.
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Little Pet Slinki
Admiral
Joined: April 16, 2006
Posts: 836
From: United Kingdom, South West.
| Posted: 2009-02-23 16:37
To add on to Gej - Could we have some form of fleet prestige total, not prestige = XP but prestige towards shipbuilders, or the faction or something to that measure?
Fleets that throw away significant amounts of ships, or resources, so a fleet gets 5 dreads lols and then dies in one day, then they want to spawn more, but even though they have the resources, they are seen as too renegade to aquire a dreadnaught! - Maybe have a 3 day fleet restriction so that if you loose a dread, you cannot buy anymore for x amount of days.
Just forming a fleet and farming resources shouldnt allow you bigger ships, but using that fleet and using it effectively to gain multitudes of differnt points and scores should lead to dreadnaughts - then fleets really will protect dreads with the smaller shipsWhich we need to add more classes and ships! but thats another thread!) and thus fleets are not only born but forced into certain roles.
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Sardaukar
Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 1656
| Posted: 2009-02-23 16:43
Repairs costing resources would definitely help out, as well a resource cost for launching a garaged ship- this would also cut down on shipyard abuse. I feel like the old change to jumping, wherein the jumping ship retains its speed, really skewered things as well- Dreads could suddenly point jump and get more than one alpha off on the target, as they could keep pace for awhile, but apparently this isn't such an issue now that your exit point in a jump is based on your speed, with some randomization thrown in, I hope.
All good ideas, really. As far as I can see it, the previous justification of Dreadnaught power- and the entire 2-to-kill-1 balance mechanism- went out the door with the gameplay changes that made Admiralty relatively easy to get, once you reach the destroyer and cruiser ranks to kill AI. Before those, you're in dire straits combatwise, but you can still repair allies and do support roles.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2009-02-23 16:45
Kluth was based originally around small dessies and cruisers being the mainstay of any fleet. When I started playing, the most common ship class flown was destroyer. The most commonly seen dread was the gang. If you saw a mandy or siphon it was with a fair amount of small ship support. Now that has all changed.
The Shell has lost it's heavier armor. All the destroyers are too bad on energy. With the leveling of weapons and armor to the class, as opposed to X-weapon does X damage, regardless of what fired it. So even tho the claw can deliver a nice hit, it can't take a dread alpha without it hitting hull.
All this has changed how K'luth is played. It is harder for newer players, and to be honest, I see more people in dreads now that couldn't fly a destroyer to a jumpgate worth crap. It has been grating on my mind since .484, that wretched wretched version that nearly tolled a funeral durge for DS.
And, like it or not, the way the cloak functions now is also a part of the problem. Before, when cloak was eccm effected, it was required for smaller scouts and mining trannies to help out with ecm mask. It is one of the reasons I miss the old cloak so much. Teamwork wasn't an option - It was required for survival.
I would like to see some casting of an eye back to what made DS great to begin with, and incorporate those concepts into this version.
To repeat history is not always doomed. All of our greatest achievments are in the past, in history. Look there to see WHAT WORKS, and then use it to improve.
Az
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Bash
Fleet Admiral
Joined: February 04, 2005
Posts: 365
| Posted: 2009-02-23 17:02
If there is no way foryou to fix smaller ships. Why not nerf the dreads and stations then buff small ships? All i see is small ships are useless, but no idea's when ask how to fix that problem.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2009-02-23 17:04
I disagree about resource for fleets or factions. It is too complicated from any aspect.
I dont know if u guys remember 1.480 and 81(attention , i aint saying 1.483). Infact we used to fly destroyers and cruisers. We flied them because we could mod them in the way we want. Dreads and stations always used to be too deathly in that version also.
i would say , remove weapon level system (it is automatic ,i.e hull size). Let modding back in the game expect 3 things. Flux-armor, shield-pulse,cloak-amj must be faction specific.
We actually stucked in same ship version . I see Ead , and i know what it brings, or SS and i know what it has to fire. We need to give some diversity to ships. I dont know for how long are we going to fly the same ships over and over again. Thats were it gets boring.
let skill the win,not the ship.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2009-02-23 17:12
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On 2009-02-23 17:04, Pakhos wrote:
i would say , remove weapon level system (it is automatic ,i.e hull size). Let modding back in the game expect 3 things. Flux-armor, shield-pulse,cloak-amj must be faction specific.
We actually stucked in same ship version . I see Ead , and i know what it brings, or SS and i know what it has to fire. We need to give some diversity to ships. I dont know for how long are we going to fly the same ships over and over again. Thats were it gets boring.
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That's what broke the game in the first place. Modding whatever you wanted. Enhancements are the diversity - it could be beam spec'd, or weapon spec'd, or speed, or energy, or defence. That's your diversity right there.
We will not be opening up free modding again - it breaks the game completely.
[edit]Spelling![/edit]
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2009-02-23 17:43 ]
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2009-02-23 17:20
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That's what broke the game in the first place. Modding however you wanted. Enhancements are the diversity - it could be beam spec'd, or weapon spec'd, or speed, or energy, or defence. That's your diversity right there.
We will not be opening up free modding again - it breaks the game completely.
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Wish u were with us when we played this game at first...Then you could see what i am trying to say..
Mock my words jack, "you" will have to open up free modding again or "you" will have to add new ships soon..It has been years we fly same ships...
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