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Message to the dev's |
El Guapo
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 24, 2004
Posts: 276
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
|  Posted: 2009-06-28 20:48
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On 2009-06-28 18:21, The Fridge wrote:
At least you have a System to Defend.
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You have to work harderd and show up more than for the freebie's....
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El Guapo
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 24, 2004
Posts: 276
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
| Posted: 2009-06-28 21:17
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On 2009-06-28 17:17, Lark of Serenity wrote:
factions dont get "punished" for anything, stop taking it like its a personal affront. if they made a balance mistake calmly point it out and give logical arguments rather than yelling about it. go do some playtests and give us the results to SHOW that kluth are underpowered somehow, all i see here is speculation and secondhand reporting. im sure the devs will look into it regardless, but it makes it a lot easier for them if you have a quantifiable result for them to look at rather than asking "what the f were you thinking," which i suspect puts them off a bit.
in any case, as someone pointed out you arent supposed to be able to sit in the middle of an enemy fleet cloaked. although i think it was funny when kluth players were following enemy fleets around for 5 systems. the fact that nebula apparently work against you should be fixed, i would agree. but kluth is the most difficult faction to play and always has been. you need to think instead of complain. someone somewhere was "fing thinking" that they did a good job and had beta tests to say so.
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Nothing about sitting. It has to do with more than that, the faction has turned into nothing but a death sentence, nothing more.. until you try it out and play it and lose about 3 to 4 k in prez in a really short period of time, dare you, other than that...
[ This Message was edited by: El Guapo on 2009-07-01 10:30 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2009-06-28 22:31
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On 2009-06-28 17:17, Lark of Serenity wrote:
...stop taking it like its a personal affront. if they made a balance mistake calmly point it out and give logical arguments....
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Sorry m8, but I have to agree here. Much as I think its unbalanced, I don't think it's personal.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2009-06-29 00:03
As kluth is hardest faction to play , it is hardest faction to balance over other two. So with every patch, they change something about kluth and dev members dont hessitate about telling us they feel kluth a bit uber. I think we have to wait until dev team to feel okay about kluth. But most important thing we didnt have with this last patch is ECONOMY SYSTEM and MISSIONS.
I believe there is no weak faction as long as you have player number on your side. But personaly there are some minor imbalance as EAD and Build drone capacity of other faction over kluth. But again, this is my personal opinion.
Also I really would like dev team to hire some of us as beta testers. For example 5 core kluth, 5 core icc and 5 core ugto players to test thing out in beta or in realese and make a private forum to drop our ideas about balance and game play to fill in Developer team and take them away from public forum discussion to work on real issues.
anyway,
peace!
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[-GTN-]BackSlash: "Azreal is a master of showing me what is horribly broken in the game."
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Pope
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 11, 2002
Posts: 2449
From: World of tomorrow
| Posted: 2009-06-29 01:49
I play K'luth every day.
The issues you describe 99% come down to slow syncronization. Which has nothing to do with factions at all, it just hurts you more, because of the reliance on cloak.
While sync problems still occur regularly i have found i can live with it, they're not that bad, mostly an annoyance. Used to be much worse than that. Yes, i still die to it sometimes. But if DS was perfect, i would have not 1 billion but maybe 100k res lost. If i made a compensation post(lol) for every ship i lost without fault of my own, the forum would explode.
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There are currently two problems with K'luth.
1) Weapon recharge time needs to be raised together with damage. Please double check this.
2) Please re-evaluate K'luth ship hull. It should be 120+% that of human factions on average IMHO.
ICC have far more reasons to whine. Please fix ICC.
1) Shields: Rotation doesn't work very well with aux gens mounted like they are. Please mount ALL AUX GENS CENTER. If center mount was removed, think up something. You need to be able to rotate AWAY from aux gens, without rotating INTO them.
2) Shield recharge rate continues to be an issue. If you are unwilling to address this in a player-controlled manner (UGTO are far more defense-oriented right now. THIS IS A PLAY EXPERIENCE FACT!) then please consider this:
- Keep the recharge rate and HP and energy drain on shields as it is now to not influence to many things at once
- Now, make AUX GENS not use ship power. (Yes, really)
- Remove the interchangeabilty of AUX GENS and REACTORS
- Add new slots to (almost) every ICC ship which can and do only contain AUX GENS.
- Try to find a balance for the amount and level of AUX GENS in this setup.
A good starting value might be none on corvette, 1 level 2 on frigates, 2 level 5 on cruisers, and 2 or 3 level 7 on Dreads.
We then see how the shields play out and can tweak it more.
This also addresses the massive energy problems ICC have at this point to some extend, and thus can work towards balancing the faction.
UGTO.
It might be worth considering giving EMP cannons their own slot or making them heavy weapons only (less work to do).
EMP should NOT be able to be used to the same effect as Flux! Flux got restricted exactly because it would get out of hand. EMP, with the level ups, has the effect of the old flux beam, a full-out EMP BD feels like a 5 flux wave Claw with builtin piercer. Can't dodge can't get away, can't do anything.
Also, nobody uses the Agincourt for anything but bombing. Fighters really need to be smarter. This is probably not an easy thing but it's the one perk that UGTO need IMHO. Not more powerful fighters, but smarter ones!
For example, a (comparatively) easy to implement change could be to make figthers always attack your last enemy ship target.*
*: Edit.. Well, this sounds better than it will work. Will need a key for this. Why not just use N 
[ This Message was edited by: sono on 2009-06-29 02:02 ]
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JBud
Marshal
Joined: February 26, 2008
Posts: 1900
From: Behind you.
| Posted: 2009-06-29 02:00
K'Luth weren't Nerfed....
It only seems differant because some cannons were replaced with heavy cannons twice as powerful to help with lag...
like 4 cannons were taken out for 2 heavys
and if you mean stations, not just K'Luth, EVERY station was nerfed to end the stationspace crapola.
Don't storm out during a free trial, just check out the new stuff buddy
Good times,
-JBud
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2009-06-29 02:47
THANKYOU SONO
re Kluth:
i agree with both, though i would add a further suggestion that just occured to me - the problem thats been facing balancing kluth has revolved around the cloak, the fact that the human factions need some kind of counter to it but that the kluth still rely on it for defense, so..
why not have 2 cloaking devices?
one is a consistent cloak that is used for basic movement and maneuvering into position, the second is your escape cloak - it runs for a very short amount of time with a high energy cost, but is totally impenetrable, so you get a solid 10-15 seconds of invisibility to use after an alpha attack, or if youre discovered and need a quick out. just throwing ideas out there!
ICC:
I've noticed theres some issues with shield regen, but i dont think you should up the recharge rate because it biases combat. right now theyre perfect for combat, in a one on one fight against a slightly superior ship i can dole out hull damage without taking any myself through proper rotation, but this usually ends with my having less than 10% left and a serious dent in the armour ring. instead i think drones should recharge shield, making them "repairable." the main problem is that the other factions can simply get back into the fight faster than we can. an UGTO ship has armour and hull repaired before we've gotten past 50% recharge on shields. it means hit and run attacks wear us down a lot more than they should, from the not-hit and run faction =P
my main issue so far has been the lack of full arc torpedoes on the AC =( its not terribly useful anymore because of this.
@energy problems, we're supposed to have energy problems, we deal with it =P a lot of people dont realize, weve had to leave fights for years now because we ran out of energy. the main issue is when this affects jump drive, ive lost a cruiser because the jump drive actually uncharged because i had no energy.
UGTO:
@emp: im not quite sure im ready to call this yet, tho i havent met an EMP BD yet in combat. i have noticed emp does more damage to systems than i remember. this is also a bit of a problem because emp has always eaten through shields really well too. i can imagine an AD wouldnt be able to stand up to an EMP BD if it was flown right. i cant imagine what it does to kluth. it might be worth taking a look into this.
@fighters - meh, its still possible to make fighter clouds to my understanding. smarter ai can wait i think. and using it to bomb isnt necessarily bad =) but regardless, the old carrier could take down the old AD if you had a planet in between the two, UGTO just need to get creative.
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Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Leonide
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 1553
From: Newport News, Virginia
| Posted: 2009-06-29 03:18
shield recharge rate was severely nerfed to the point of almost no recharge.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2009-06-29 03:41
naw, it isnt that bad. it gets back to 50% or so before the enemy fleets makes a comeback, which is enough really, it just seems like too little for the "defensive" faction. it just means that we're worse off the second round of combat if one comes fast enough. it doesnt feel right that UGTO can fight us down in a war of attrition.
i think as it is it might actually work, maybe up regen just a tiny bit but otherwise i seem to be doing okay.
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Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Pope
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 11, 2002
Posts: 2449
From: World of tomorrow
| Posted: 2009-06-29 05:18
Lark, you sparked something there.
Signature cloak - Will mask the signature of the ship to the point of no detection under normal circumstances. Vulnerable to changes in sensor field. This cloak can be run continiously.
Heavy cloak - Will mask the signature of the ship to an (arbitrary) value of -10 sig, making the ship undetectable on radar. This cloak uses so much energy that it can only be run for a maximum of 30 seconds time (just throwing around numbers here)
What'd you all thing?
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2009-06-29 05:46
Just an FYI on the shields : actives became the default, that's why you see them as being slow to recharge.
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Pope
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 11, 2002
Posts: 2449
From: World of tomorrow
| Posted: 2009-06-29 09:49
No.
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2009-06-29 11:17
Okay, so I've played all three factions too, and let me toss in my two cents with Lark and Sono.
I do agree that re-active shields might (and probably will) benefit from a faster re-charge rate with regards to regular combat, however, using one or two active shields seems to deal well with recharge issues. For the sake of balance, it might be interesting to some day test the effective resilience of a full-active shielded Cruiser and a full-re-active shielded Cruiser, and then their worth in a series of small fights.
A correct balancing should leave the active-shielded Cruiser advantaged; I think I read somewhere that the new re-active shielding are supposed for the big guns who aren't really meant to be in the combat for long, like Assault Dreadnoughts and Stations, but I'm not sure where I read that and whether this recollection of mine is correct.
The idea of AUX GENS sono presents is interesting, and it'd be a nice idea in my opinion. Maybe it's possible to have Aux Gens just not add any shielding power at all but allow them to bring energy to shields? That way, an ICC ship will be able to use them as emergency shield rations, rather than their current use. (of course, currently you can mount a few more to sacrifice energy for (a little) more lasting power)
The K'Luth's weaponry being stronger and recharging slower would be an interesting change, but not one I would particularly welcome. As it stands, a K'Luth ship can already almost immediately destroy ships below its own hull: a Siphon can take out Supplies in two hits, and while I understand some believe this should be one hit, you have to imagine that most Supplies aren't flown by Fleet Admirals or somewhere around that. They're small, struggling players trying to get to the Dreadnoughts, and I wouldn't mind them to be able to resist a bit.
UGTO EMP is an issue that, like Lark, I haven't experienced the full wrath of an all-EMP Battle Dreadnought, but I think the issue re: EMP Damage is a bit overblown indeed. Okay, just a moment, before you tear me to shreds: Yes, EMP disabling a Station at 90+% hull is ridiculous, but on the other hand, that EMP cannon uses up a regular cannon slot and reduces its effective firepower against something not (yet) hulled. Also, you have to take into account that UGTO suffer from systems damage about as hard as the K'Luth and ICC do; they just don't have AHR to support repairing system damage, nor shields to cover weak spots in the hull.
EMP damage should be reduced to a level that does enough damage to adequately annoy a player, but not enough damage to allow them to disable entire ships. This, however, requires a lot of calculations, I don't think it'll be easy to balance EMP in an easy way.
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Lost my train of thought half-way this post, but the bottom line here'd be that, from someone who's played (and plays) all three of the Factions, I don't think game balance is too out of whack.
ICC Shielding is still good, and missiles still hull a Battle Dread if it doesn't watch out.
UGTO EMP and energy is still high-level, but they run out now, too. Their armour choices makes them pretty good on the defense and altogether it's more well-rounded than the others; but they still suffer heavily from K'Luth and ICC, having to design their ships specifically around combatting one particular threat, rather than both.
K'Luth's cloaking makes me go fffffffffffff at times when they signature bug(ged), but their weapons are generally solid and two K'Luth Mandibles are a greater force than two UGTO Battle Dreadnoughts, or two ICC Combat Dreadnoughts. AHR really repairs armour a lot faster than any of the other factions, and Supplies just make K'Luth able to enter the combat field really fast. Really, their greatest boon is their inability to take full frontal fire for too long, but then their jump drives also recharge fastest.
Lost my train of thought twice, I'll end it on this note. :(
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Tommas [ USF HunnyBunny ]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: February 04, 2006
Posts: 581
From: Norway
| Posted: 2009-06-29 13:24
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On 2009-06-29 05:18, sono wrote:
Lark, you sparked something there.
Signature cloak - Will mask the signature of the ship to the point of no detection under normal circumstances. Vulnerable to changes in sensor field. This cloak can be run continiously.
Heavy cloak - Will mask the signature of the ship to an (arbitrary) value of -10 sig, making the ship undetectable on radar. This cloak uses so much energy that it can only be run for a maximum of 30 seconds time (just throwing around numbers here)
What'd you all thing?
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A big fat no! THe energy drain from the regular cloak is high, so makin a new cloak that uses alot more energy is idiotic. If your runing from an enemy you have one big problem, and that is SPEED! and what happens when you get speed? yes your energy goes down, and it goes down FAST!. And im sure you have playd kluth and then im sure you uncloak, fire your guns ( energy goes down ) then you escape. Now at this point your energy is low, your speed is high, and once u hit cloak u usaly slow down because the energy is down to 10-20 and u hope to good your speed gets down before energy goes to 0.
And then to the emp! Its insane! I have meet ugto dreads with it and i can tell you that an station that has 99% gets ALL systems out, the cloak!, the JD! the AHR!
Kluth is DEPENDING on those!, The AHR and Cloak is the number ONE defence for luth! And when we lose those already at 99% hull is insane, I think its strange that we even lose it at 1%. Many times ive lost ship due to the fact the ahr and cloak gettin destroyd when ure down under 50% and your tryin to get out of there! But you cant coz their all damaged! Those two things should never be disabled!
And this is for luth, Imagene how it is for icc without the ahr? imposible!
And regarding the icc, playd them on the scenario server and they worked, but the recharge rate on them was insanly slow! And its very unfair that icc dont have an depot or supply ship for their shields to. If you look at ugto, they got loads of supplies/stations and their armor repair so fast they can go into battle with in instant, and at times they dont even leave because they got so many supplies. How can that be fair to icc?
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DarkScorpion
Marshal
Sanity Assassins
Joined: September 14, 2004
Posts: 237
From: London England
| Posted: 2009-06-29 13:49
just a quick pick up on some of the things i don't think it ould be a good idea to have a second cloak it would make it unfair, i do think of the nature of dependance on cloaking device its hit points need a higher value than they do now.
On icc i test there ships and think WTF have they done to this a stupid amount of ammo as there weapons are not exactly powerful in any sense of the word only good thing is there range.The shields seem realy slow to regen there combat dreads are laughable when you match them against a mandy or battle dread there seems no scope for even a good pilot to win over with skill.
Ugto armour is still too quick to regen with supply.
[ This Message was edited by: DarkScorpion on 2009-06-29 13:52 ]
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