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Kluth cloaking |
Greens56
Commander
Joined: October 11, 2009
Posts: 4
|  Posted: 2009-10-18 16:36
Hi,
Back some time ago in the 1.483 era, I used to play as ICCer "Green", member of Fatal fleet. Trying to relearn game again, and I've got a question if someone would stoop to answer it:
How does Kluth cloaking work now and how is the system balanced? From my short experiences, it doesn't really seem so to me given the ease of cloak capping planets, generally difficulty of finding kluth even when you've got 6+ eccm's at a planet going yet their still swimming around you but as I've said, I don't know the in's and outs of the game anymore.
If anyone bothers to respond, Thanks!
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2009-10-18 16:43
ECCM only effects cloak timing. Means the higher the signature, the longer it takes to uncloak or cloak. While cloaking or uncloaking, a K'Luth is unable to return any fire, use jump drive, or anything else. In short, get your shots in as fast as you can before he is able to shoot at you, or before he slipps away.
ECCM can be "pinged" which will give away the position for about a half sceond.
Use alot of planetary sensors and sensor bases to increase the signature, and for the most part a so-called "hidden tranny rush" is all but impossible.
The other factions may dispute that, but I am a K'Luth, I know what we fear or are able to handle.
Beacons will uncloak a cloaked K'Luth ship as well, and I believe they can be stacked 3 at a time on a ship. This extends the signature, making him uncloak, or making it a LOOOOOOOONG time before he can be fully cloaked.
Yes. Beacons are under used. Hopefully with all the new blood and small ships, they will be more prevailant.
As for cloak itself, it is a true cloak. You can't just have 10 eccm running like in .482 and under and expose the cloaked ship.
Basically, to sum it up, you will have to develop new skills to fight K'Luth than you are familiar with in those versions.
Hope that helps.
Az
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Silent Threat { Vier }
Marshal
Anarchy's End
Joined: August 03, 2004
Posts: 278
From: Waiting...watching...
| Posted: 2009-10-18 16:59
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Yes. Beacons are under used. Hopefully with all the new blood and small ships, they will be more prevailant.
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Nobody saw this. Pay it no mind...
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Greens56
Commander
Joined: October 11, 2009
Posts: 4
| Posted: 2009-10-18 18:46
Thanks for the reply Az, I used beacons liberally in a UGTO picket dessie and had kluth complaining about beac.on spamming. Yet they only seem to add about 5 seconds of detection
Nonetheless, it still seems like Kluth basically have an invicibility button on hand. If ever in danger, press it and the odds are very much with you (unless your dread with very close enemies) that the enemy won't find you shooting in the dark. Two half-second glimpses in 40 seconds via pinging is not enough to work with. I've seen kluth dessies stay fighting throughout a long battle with less than 50% hp just by cloaking when things become inconvienent and then uncloak behind an enemies ass and rinse and repeat.
Yes Kluth can't fire or jump when cloaked. Yet the benefits (seeming invunerability as what can't be seen can't be hit and essentially freedom of movement in enemy areas) strongly outweight the benefits. All strong eccm presence seems to do is give you a hint that Kluth are near you now. No way can you know where they are until they decide to alpha you in the rear.
In my kluth playing experiences, it very much seems like death is an optional thing.
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Sens [R33]
Admiral
Joined: September 27, 2008
Posts: 1020
From: Edge of th...
| Posted: 2009-10-18 18:48
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On 2009-10-18 18:46, Greens56 wrote:
Thanks for the reply Az, I used beacons liberally in a UGTO picket dessie and had kluth complaining about beac.on spamming. Yet they only seem to add about 5 seconds of detection
Nonetheless, it still seems like Kluth basically have an invicibility button on hand. If ever in danger, press it and the odds are very much with you (unless your dread with very close enemies) that the enemy won't find you shooting in the dark. Two half-second glimpses in 40 seconds via pinging is not enough to work with. I've seen kluth dessies stay fighting throughout a long battle with less than 50% hp just by cloaking when things become inconvienent and then uncloak behind an enemies ass and rinse and repeat.
Yes Kluth can't fire or jump when cloaked. Yet the benefits (seeming invunerability as what can't be seen can't be hit and essentially freedom of movement in enemy areas) strongly outweight the benefits. All strong eccm presence seems to do is give you a hint that Kluth are near you now. No way can you know where they are until they decide to alpha you in the rear.
In my kluth playing experiences, it very much seems like death is an optional thing.
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Death may be optional, but so is being effective.
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Sliverine
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 23, 2006
Posts: 29
From: Singapore
| Posted: 2009-10-18 19:06
Judging from your argument, everyone should play kluth if said race was really invulnerable. However we are far from it. Kluth ships take far longer to cloak the bigger they get and become even more susceptible to ecm and pinging since their sig is naturally much higher to start with and might even take longer to reduce (im not sure bout the latter part of the statement).
Plus even while cloaked you can still get hit and since stations and dreads are generally huge and unwieldy, it is possible to actually kill them even if they are cloaked just by blind predictive fire which i have seen occuring a couple of times.
Hence, death is not really an optional outcome that comes with cloak as when facing players who know how to fight luth, it is already a challenge staying alive.
Even if we assume cloak does make death optional for us, it merely provides us invulnerability not invincibility. Even if we can hide for an indefinite period of time and not die, we are unable to do anything else while hidden. Therefore from the way i see it, this goes both ways. When the kluth cloak to save themselves, at the same time, it saves you as they cant fire at you and thus, you can be certain that you will suffer no damage (at least until they uncloak again).
As for the freedom of movement, that benefit is offset by the weaker armor of luth and the general lack of range and limited forward firing arcs of their beam heavy ships (tho not all their ships lack range...but thats what the 'general' word is there for). Its all part of the different tactical play each and every faction requires and which every other faction must adapt to. If you know they are going to cloak and alpha your rear, there are a multitude of things you can do to either prevent that or work that to your advantage, such as using an awkwardly positioned ship as bait or facing your rear to another strong ship such as a station or a dread so that should they appear to alpha you they wld present themselves to be similarly alphaed...in their rear.
With all that, people who actually still complain about the godliness of luth and how they uberpwn everything else would be better served flying kites in their backyard instead of playing this game. I believe that would offer a more suitable challenge for such a calibre of players, so to speak.
[ This Message was edited by: fatalerror on 2009-10-18 19:09 ]
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Greens56
Commander
Joined: October 11, 2009
Posts: 4
| Posted: 2009-10-18 19:48
Yes of course, the standard DS response: Lolz, lame complaining person, you just suck, because we know criticism is always wrong.
Thanks Fatal Error, I agree, I guess flying kites might be more fun than an old MMO space sim that's been hemorrhaging suscribers and community for as long as I can remember. This game is a husk of what it used to be. I wonder why I tried to come back.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2009-10-18 20:00
Well, or u could let a few bad comments from a few players form your opinion.
What I would strongly recommend, is get on K'Luth for a while. You will have your notions of seeming invulnerability fixxed. You can always go back to ICC/UGTO, but then you would have a better understanding of the weaknesses of the ships, and how to fight against Kluth.
Even cloaked, I have been killed.
Even cloaked, I have been spotted sneaking up to attack.
It's not impossible, but it is a different set of skills needed than before. It really is that simple, m8.
I am certainly not trying to talk down or anything to you. I have been more honest than most K'Luth would appreciate, in fact. I have done my best to help the human factions become more effective against us.
Hell, get in the game as Kluth and Wolf will show you what its about now. We want good competion, not sheeple.
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Seraphim
Chief Marshal
Joined: June 03, 2005
Posts: 11
From: Singapore
| Posted: 2009-10-18 21:59
Flying kluth is not as simple as UGTO or ICC. One must think like a ninja, and be a ninja. Cloak doesnt give us a "I win" Button, but it does allow us to choose when we fight or where to fight. But these advantages are outweighted by our flimsy armor. As Azreal suggested, join kluth for a week. See how we roll.
I was in FS before flying kluth and use to have the same feelings about kluth as u do, but i gave kluth a shot and i'm now addicted. Nothing beats fighting outnumbered and winning through coordinated and precise teamwork.
Rant Over.
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Greens56
Commander
Joined: October 11, 2009
Posts: 4
| Posted: 2009-10-18 22:03
Thank you for your suggestions and honest attempts at aid Azreal. Their appreciated. I'll try them out before I spout off again.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2009-10-18 23:08
All good.
In addition, I found this in the Basic Equipment Guide:
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Cloaking Device [ Hull ( K'luth ) Faction Only ]
Cloaking Devices (cloaks) are also found on all K'luth vessels. Cloaking devices use an unknown form of light distortion and signature masking technology to make ships invisible and undetectable by sensors. Cloaking Devices do nothing to silence K'luth's distinctive sound, and Beacons allow them to be targeted even while cloaked.
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I forgot about sound. I do not know about it cause I never turn the game volumn up lol. But apparently you can also hunt us by sound.
Another thing that I thought about. Watch your signature yourself. I try to remember not to do this, but I know I have given myself away moving into position because I left my ECM on. That means as I get closer to the enemy, if he is observant, he'll see his sig drop. If he can't explain it from what he sees around him, ie. other ships approaching with ecm on, well, then you suspect what you can not see....
Also, Right before I uncloak, I will turn my ECM on. This shortens my uncloak a second or two. That is, if I did not make the above mistake. If you know we are about, that sudden drop in signature will tell you that trouble is coming for dinner.
just a few more thoughts for you and others.
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Krim {C?}
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: June 24, 2002
Posts: 362
From: Boston MA
| Posted: 2009-10-19 02:12
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On 2009-10-18 16:59, Silent Threat wrote:
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Yes. Beacons are under used. Hopefully with all the new blood and small ships, they will be more prevailant.
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Nobody saw this. Pay it no mind...
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We're well aware of beacon's strengths. Thier implimentation can be difficult. Very few players have the hang of it at the moment. But the UGTO Long-Range Scout modified to have 4 ECCM is the most potent combination I've been able to find.
Also, putting a player into a scout (a good player) usually takes away a good player from using an EAD or other heavily armed Kluth killing vessel to take down the ship once it's beaconed.
I've been trying to teach newer players how effective a LRscout can be. Morkath did a wonderful job of this last night, Congrats Morkath! (I hope i'm spelling that correctly)
-Krim
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Hydrolyzer
2nd Rear Admiral
Joined: October 26, 2007
Posts: 8
| Posted: 2009-10-19 03:29
I can see the merit of some of the pro-k'luth arguments, however I only play the scenario server (returning after 2 years away, the new metaverse arangement confuses and infuriates me) and in the limited tech level of the scenario server, the k'luth wtfpwnz.
As the usual largest ship fielded in the scenario server is a destroyer, the incidence of getting hit while cloaked declines massively, smaller ship = smaller target to hit in the dark.
I see one of these replies says that if the k'luth were really that OP then everyone would be playing them. In scenario, they are. I came into a round today as UGTO and on a scenario map where ICC and UGTO had teamed up against k'luth (because k'luth were winning all the prior scenarios) it was 1 v 5 at least. (I couldnt tell you the exact number because they were never all uncloaked at the same time)
When I used to play the faction descriptions were sort of ICC = outnumbered but skilled players, UGTO = moar cannon fodder, K'luth = the curious outsiders that only ever had 30% of the people the other factions had, but by skillfully flying to the very precise limits of their ships they were able to do alot of hit and run damage, even if they couldnt hold systems. Obviously im not the only one involved in the game so it cant be tailored to me, but my personal opinion is that I would like it to stay as described. In the story what we see of k'luth in the metaverse and thus darkspace is the scouting force of a race that is probing the human civilisation to see their strength. They're not the main character, they're a quirky offshoot during the central plot device of ICC v UGTO. I certainly dont enjoy having to team up with ICC in the scenario server because k'luth keep kicking both our asses.
I think a reasonable way to fix this is simply increasing the timer on the cloaking device, probably to around twice the time of the ships jump drive. This prevents the 'cloak-alpha-cloak-alpha' dance that i've been seeing on scenario. Sure it gives the k'luth a nice advantage still in terms of being able to safely position themselves before intiating a fight, but if they start a fight they have to stay in it.
feel free to deconstruct my ideas, point out anything thats wrong with it, but dont tell me scenario doesnt matter.
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2694
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2009-10-19 03:50
[quoteOn 2009-10-19 02:12, Krim {C?} wrote:
Also, putting a player into a scout (a good player) usually takes away a good player from using an EAD or other heavily armed Kluth killing vessel to take down the ship once it's beaconed.
I've been trying to teach newer players how effective a LRscout can be. Morkath did a wonderful job of this last night, Congrats Morkath! (I hope i'm spelling that correctly)
-Krim[/quote]To true, When i take out a ECCM Or beacon ship, usually means we lost the punching power.
(No offence) But the newbies are just to new to know how to handle a K'Luth situation. mainly try to avoid being in the front arc of a K'Luth Dread.. Ruptors hurt when used in numbers!!
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-Daedalus-
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 26, 2006
Posts: 549
| Posted: 2009-10-19 06:12
I find the problem with scouts right now is that they are a PITA to kill. You can sneak up on a supply and almost murder it with one blast but the same one blast barely touches a scout.
Now supplies are alot bigger then a scout but can't last as long? Something wrong there.
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