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Scenario(SV) vs Metaverse(MV) |
Dwarden
Admiral
CHIMERA
Joined: June 07, 2001
Posts: 1072
From: Czech Republic
|  Posted: 2009-10-26 13:50
you can easily cease SV and use MV with SV like goals
like faction goal Capture planetary ring xyz in system ABC and for other faction it's defend ...
that gives yous "GOAL" and "START" the goal can be then split into "PHASES" of success like destroying enemy barracks, crushing enemy AI station , capturing some moon on way to goal there even can exist "BONUS" or "SECONDARY" objectives for this
then if you succeed You have "END" which brings some bonus prestige reward to these who took part to finish that "faction mission"
ofcourse loosers gets less than winners 
this combined with redesigned MV to be smaller allows better catchup of player base while still keeping size bit bigger than just SV
imho SV needs to be ceased completely due to fact maps weren't redesigned since who knows when (typical sample too close orbits due to size planets adjusted but orbits not)
also locked gates may help to 'keep' game pushing toward fight systems (simply you can't use gate to system which enemy locked by capturing all planets and moons and building SY and reaching certain amount of resources or w/e)
this way only systems where battle occures are easily accessable (still deepspace jumping is possible but You may meet strong AI resistance)
[ This Message was edited by: Dwarden on 2009-10-26 13:53 ]
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SaturnShadow™ *FC*(Angel Of Darkness)
Marshal
*Renegade Space Marines*
Joined: February 03, 2007
Posts: 310
From: UK
| Posted: 2009-10-26 17:57
now the Ai thing yes it is distracting but i think it should be toned down to a max of one faction fleet per server or something like that ( 1 dread, 2 crusiers, 3 Destroyers, 4 frigs, 5 scouts, 2 supply ships, 2 transports(ugto as example Battle dread, 2 battle cruisers, 2 gunboats 1 picket destroyers, 2 bombers 2 intercepters frigs, 3 assault corvs 1 long range scout 1 anti sensor scout, 2 hvy supplys, 1 engy, 2 transports) you get the picture or something like it amd for the home server they get a station of some type.
only difference is the one fleet starts in one of the systems and not scattered all over to start with it would be ok. Oh and make it so that your AI ships spawn when you set a shipyard to spawn these ships BUT it will only spawn the bigger ships of you got the right tech lvl for it.
now lets say each faction has a total of 40 or so AI ships atm in one server you can then reduce it to 20 AI ships and have it like this:
home servers: 21 AI ships for only the home faction (if luth gain entry to sol only ugto get AI ships and vice versa) plus afew pirate ships
center server: 20 AI ships for each faction plus pirates, MIr and the others.
oh and one more thing before i finish my post have the AI fleet unable to leave the system they are set to. (Ie if ugto have the fleet stay in the sol system and in the center server have them stay in the system with the gate to the home server) it will almost be like the defence team.
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Silent Threat { Vier }
Marshal
Anarchy's End
Joined: August 03, 2004
Posts: 278
From: Waiting...watching...
| Posted: 2009-10-26 18:01
If we could get some people into the MV and have some true fleet battles, then you people would realize how much fun the MV can be.
More like old times...
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2009-10-26 18:34
Quote:
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On 2009-10-26 18:01, Silent Threat wrote:
If we could get some people into the MV and have some true fleet battles, then you people would realize how much fun the MV can be.
More like old times...
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amen.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2009-10-26 19:49
The MV as it is just can't compare to the scenario servers. You don't have to hunt for people to fight.
You don't have to wander aimlessly.
Everyone is concentrated in one point.
There are clear, important goals. Planets are very important.
Every part of the game is experienced. Hey wait, I'm just reiterating what has already been said.
Basically, the MV is a sandbox. And its boring. That might change if oh, you get 50 people on each side and you can actually fill it out.
Good luck.
-Ent
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-10-26 23:02
Quote:
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On 2009-10-26 13:50, Dwarden wrote:
you can easily cease SV and use MV with SV like goals
like faction goal Capture planetary ring xyz in system ABC and for other faction it's defend ...
that gives yous "GOAL" and "START" the goal can be then split into "PHASES" of success like destroying enemy barracks, crushing enemy AI station , capturing some moon on way to goal there even can exist "BONUS" or "SECONDARY" objectives for this
then if you succeed You have "END" which brings some bonus prestige reward to these who took part to finish that "faction mission"
ofcourse loosers gets less than winners
this combined with redesigned MV to be smaller allows better catchup of player base while still keeping size bit bigger than just SV
imho SV needs to be ceased completely due to fact maps weren't redesigned since who knows when (typical sample too close orbits due to size planets adjusted but orbits not)
also locked gates may help to 'keep' game pushing toward fight systems (simply you can't use gate to system which enemy locked by capturing all planets and moons and building SY and reaching certain amount of resources or w/e)
this way only systems where battle occures are easily accessable (still deepspace jumping is possible but You may meet strong AI resistance)
[ This Message was edited by: Dwarden on 2009-10-26 13:53 ]
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From what I've been hearing there's a new scenario map rotation in the works. Hopefully it will fix the various bugs these old scenario maps now have. I'll list the bugs I remember:
Epsilon Eri (the one with Okag right?): Disconnect bug around Okag and now apparently Rafraue, and the two gates Izzy and Aa are safe zones.
Cygnus: Af is not a flag planet for ICC. This bug may only occur the 2nd time the map is reached; can't remember if it's there the 1st time.
Luyten: Michelle is inside Mycopia, and Dawn, Necroph and Wecamp are way too close to it. It's due to the older planet sizes.
Won't even list the obvious bug of being able to use ships from previous maps without the sy and tech requirements (I do like being able to keep them though and the idea of being able to spawn them without the need for resources, just sy and tech).
Quote:
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On 2009-10-26 18:01, Silent Threat wrote:
If we could get some people into the MV and have some true fleet battles, then you people would realize how much fun the MV can be.
More like old times...
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The old times were scenario That was back before shipyards and even before time limits on maps. Those were the glory days.
I wonder if it would be wise to get rid of time limits again? Or at least increase them +1 hour per map? EDIT: I say this because of the increased time to build planets. It takes a while to build up a sy, even longer to fully build planets with level II defenses. The time limits were for a different era.
The MV can be fun. But it's only the large fleet battles that are fun. I don't know about anyone else but to me fleet battles are only part of this game.
I have an old version of Darkspace from 2004 on another harddrive. I wonder if that would help any devs in bringing back the older version? I don't even remember what version that was.
EDIT: Another problem with MV, one that not many might agree with me with, is enhancements. In scenario you only find the occasional ship with a few small enhancements. It's much better overall. I think the balance in general is much better without enhancements.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2009-10-26 23:11 ]
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zombat87
Admiral
Joined: March 23, 2008
Posts: 13
| Posted: 2009-10-27 09:28
Combat in SV is mostly between corvets and frigates.
Combat in MV is mostly between Dreads and Stations, if you're in a dessie or a cruiser you'll get hulled in practically one alpha... which isn't very fun
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Krim {C?}
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: June 24, 2002
Posts: 362
From: Boston MA
| Posted: 2009-10-27 14:22
Quote:
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On 2009-10-27 09:28, zombat87 wrote:
Combat in SV is mostly between corvets and frigates.
Combat in MV is mostly between Dreads and Stations, if you're in a dessie or a cruiser you'll get hulled in practically one alpha... which isn't very fun
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So in essecence, you're saying SV is more fun because ship to ship battles last longer?
It seems in the MV, Dread vs Dread combat occours much faster than say, cruiser/cruiser, and dessy/dessy. Station Station takes an eternety though... and usually results in a loss of power, before both stations actually deal any damage
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2009-10-27 14:45
I don't think theres really a problem with enhancements, its just their availability. If you want them, you have to grind for them, and then you get that advantage over everyone else.
And not everyone is up to that, so some live without.
But thats a whole 'nother discussion.
-Ent
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2009-10-27 15:08
its allweird because at first MV medium 1 day... next day scenario. who sparked this?
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-10-27 18:45
Quote:
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On 2009-10-27 14:45, Enterprise wrote:
I don't think theres really a problem with enhancements, its just their availability. If you want them, you have to grind for them, and then you get that advantage over everyone else.
And not everyone is up to that, so some live without.
But thats a whole 'nother discussion.
-Ent
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Well no, that's actually now a big part of the MV. It does belong in this discussion in a way. They're balanced if everyone has them, but it requires farming which really should have no part in DS. And if someone doesn't have them or just doesn't want to farm, and goes up against a dread with 6 advanced multiplexers, that balance fades.
A lot of us have been saying how it would be best if only players dropped the best enhancements, and not elites, to stop the farming and the splitting up of the MV players. Let's just hope it happens some day.
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-Shadowalker-™
Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: September 23, 2007
Posts: 709
From: Shadows
| Posted: 2009-10-27 19:01
I dont see where this thread is going??
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-10-27 19:03
It's the reasons why scenario is so much more popular than the MV. I think enhancements and the farming of them contribute to it, even if in only a small way.
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Phellan
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 27, 2007
Posts: 220
From: Red Light District
| Posted: 2009-10-27 19:17
I'm in a hurry so I haven't read all the responses yet, but you did touch on something I think would be a great change to the metaverse. I think there should only be battle in one system at a time. Whoever controls that sytem(has majority of planets capped)can use any of the gates in that system, but enemy ships can only enter or return to their own faction held systems. This would help in a few ways:
*concentrates the action in one system and really forces controlling faction to defend against both enemy factions if their both active, and both enemy factions to compete with eachother as well as the dominant faction for control of the system.
*By preventing anyone from entering a protected system further back than the one in contention, the little guys are protected. Builders, miners, and transports are free to do their jobs without being jumped by dreads. Ships can get to the battle quicker because they will always have a protected shipyard one system away from the action. Platforms and such can be built up around planets or the gate leading to the contested system ahead of time.
*A team or even multifaction effort would be required to break a controlled system, so no more sweeping map wipes at 2am. Suppies, bombers, and escort ships would have to work with unprecidented coordination and numbers to invade a system. On the flip side, they themselves would have a protected system behind them to retreat to. Once a system is defeated, it would be open for building and fortification so there would actually be more building than usual. The faction controlling a given system wouldn't have any advantage in terms of invading another faction because they too would be entering a fortified area.
One other thing. What if you limit AI to whatever system they spawn in? That includes what distress calls and destinations they respond to. Alot of the time when I log on theres AI scattered in the middle of nowhere. It would be great to have moer control over them too.
Well thats my $1.97. Hope its not too off topic or full of stupid suggestions, but that idea excited me. To answer the original question and support my rant, my favorite part of the game is when a large fleet has to work together to drive out a planet hugging enemy, or vice versa to fend off an invading swarm of bombers.
[ This Message was edited by: Phellan on 2009-10-27 19:18 ]
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Tellaris
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: April 30, 2002
Posts: 830
From: Land of Chocolate
| Posted: 2009-10-28 21:20
WHY is Scenario apparently more entertaining then the Metaverse? This is the golden question, and its answer is not easily found. I will try to answer this question.
Lets take a look at what Scenario and Metaverse are:
Scenario
-Timed game
-Few planets
-Some required planets to win
-Small
-Frequently reset
MetaVerse
-No timer
-Massive in size
-MANY planets
-No victory conditions
-Persistant
Both are fun in their own right, depending on how you play, who you play with and against. Both require teamwork, both have AI (last I checked), both have the basic DS gameplay.
DS only has a handful of players that play at any given time.
You can look at these two types of server in two different ways, one as dynamic, and one as static. The very nature of a sandbox is that it is static. Not a lot of change will happen. This essentially equates to monotony, and, eventually, boredom. Since there is nothing to "discover," exploration, which is what most sandbox games use to keep people interested, does not exist. There is no reward for flying to some random spot in the universe and hoping to find something, its a guarantee you won't.
(beyond events of course.) Further, the rather small amounts of players ensure that the MV stays static. There isn't much change because there isn't enough people to even hope to effect large scale change. There are only so many times you can fight just planets (and the odd AI/player) before it gets boring. Whats worse, due to the lack of any timer, this encourages players to play the waiting game to secure a planet. Can't take the planet with the enemy there? Out wait them to quit and do it then. The waiting game is boring as hell.
With the scenario server, its faster paced. Why? Because of the TIMER.
You have x hours and y minuites to snatch victory from the claws of you enemies, as it where. As such, it is a race against time to secure your objectives against your opponents.
Next, is the scenario's biggest advantage. There is a small number of players. Scenario is rather small. This fits that small number into a rather small area. You are guaranteed to find some one hiding somewhere, even on some of the more massive systems (Like Epsilon Eri). While the same thing may be true about the MetaVerse, however it is a lot faster to search 15-30 odd planets, then 500.
Further, because of the timer, it is a race to capture a "good" planet, get up a Shipyard before your enemy does, and then pound them into extinction. If you're on the losing end of this race, it also forces you to get creative before the time runs out to win.
Another point, is the timer ends, a team is declared the winner, given ~5.0 bonus pres, and the map is cleaned completely, and a new game starts.
As far as I can tell, thats why the scenario is more fun. Its more dynamic, and even if a team ends up on the losing end in one match, they have a fresh chance to try again in the next map. If you get beaten up in the MV, you STAY beaten up.
Now then, as far as scenario was concerned last I played it, once you got a Shipyard, the AI was a pushover. It should either be removed, or "fixed" so that it will grab ships of larger sizes. Simple setup, have it randomly pick a combat class from a list, check to see if a Shipyard exists, and if it has enough resources to build it, else pick again. If no shipyard exists, it goes straight to a frigate.
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