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More specific information on systems and weapons |
Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
|  Posted: 2009-12-10 18:08
I intend to work on this for Wolf at some point. ATM too many fires going. When I do, I may post it here. I'll include modifier equations, etc.
Well, just look at the enhancement guide I did. It'll be something like that.
I'd need a knowledgable staffer to lend me a few moments of his time for a few questions though.
As far as putting it into EXCEL, I no longer have it. I'll have to get it.
It would be nice if it was done so that you could input enhancement modifiers and have it work out the equation for new numbers. It's not that it is hard, but, well, alot of the players here have been educated in the US, and they probably cant handle decimals and percents.
Just kidding.
Sorta.
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Anathemia
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: June 23, 2009
Posts: 38
| Posted: 2009-12-11 00:47
I've noticed older people in the US (I live in the US btw) seem to use fractions more and younger people are often welcoming to decimals. Only problem with younger people is they sometimes get impatient and older people stop caring if the explanation gets boring.
But I digress...
I think a spreadsheet with number values (derived from experiments or not) would actually be too revealing, and a general flowchart or something with basic info would be more appropriate. It would only really apply to newer people as the more experienced players already have a feel for their ships. The weapon descriptions already work as very vague ideas of how a weapon performs, but they could be improved.
I would hate to see DS become a "numbers game" since it relies of the people who play it to make decisions in combat as a part of who makes fireworks or not. Thats enough outta me though.
(speaking of materials that influence others, one could probably write a small guide on the variances of ships, gadgets, and their uses if they wanted to. Sorta like "Darkspace Manual - Advanced" or something, not that it hasn't been done a billion times over though)
[ This Message was edited by: Ian9018's Ghost on 2009-12-11 00:53 ]
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2009-12-11 01:09
Re:
> As far as putting it into EXCEL, I no longer have it. I'll have to get it.
You can use OpenOffice.org, but I think it requires Java, which is slower and kind of annoying imo.
Alternately, Google Docs is handy.
There's probably other options, but I find gdocs perfectly sufficient for most of my uses.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2009-12-11 02:04
By popular demand! Though I'm only answering part of your questions, and I would note that this could still be figured out experimentally.. but what the hell, I like the reward laziness (when I'm not too lazy to do so).
No Falloff
All Torpedoes
All Missiles
All Bombs
All Mines
Disruptors
Flux Wave
Gauss Cannon
Ion Cannon
QST
Railgun
Sabot
SI
Falloff (how much it does at max range)
CL (33)
CLH (45)
ELF (80)
EMP (98)
Flux Beam (45)
P Cannon (45)
[ This Message was edited by: Shigernafy on 2009-12-11 02:14 ]
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Rae
Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 23, 2002
Posts: 284
From: 10 minutes away in a fast boat
| Posted: 2009-12-11 14:36
[ This Message was edited by: Rae on 2009-12-11 14:37 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-12-11 16:03
Plasma cannons also have no falloff; they were fixed recently.
I have some slightly dated numbers, so I'll say that average total damage per volley looks higher for psi cannons due to it firing 5 projectiles. But the numbers in front of me do not say at what range that average damage was calculated with, so at max range it's probably less than plasma while at close range it's probably higher.
I'm also seeing that plasma cannons have the same range no matter the weapon level (800 range) while psi cannons are betwen 1211-1413 for levels 4-6.
Plasma cannons also have more random damage than psi, and have AOE damage for some reason, but not a large enough radius to ever affect another ship nearby, so what's the point?
The biggest concern is something Mr. Black confirmed for me the other night: that weapons with multiple damage types are not considered a percentage of each type when taking into account damage reduction from shields or special armors. For instance, plasma cannons are kinetic and energy, but not 50% kinetic and 50% energy (or 75% 25% or whatever it's supposed to be), but simply considered 100% of both, so that shields give the full 25% reduction. Same with UGTO's reflective armor. If it was working as originally intended only the energy portion of the weapon would be reduced by shields; the kinetic portion would be unaffected and in the case of reflective would be increased.
(that also means that the PSI damage of Kluth weapons is meaningless, since even though there's no anti-PSI armor or shields available, all PSI weapons also do another damage type which will be reduced, making the entire weapon reduced)
Mr. Black said he wanted to fix this, but the question is when? I think that's a pretty important fix for the game so I'm hoping it will be soon.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2009-12-11 18:12
Yeah by the way, I did this rather quickly and there's a lot of weapons (variants for fighters and monsters and mi, things not in the game, etc) so I'm sure I missed a few that players actually use. Let me know what's missing and I can fill in the gaps.
No Falloff -- Plasma Cannon
Falloff -- Psi Cannon (25)
I also realized that I think I was factoring in random damage at full, when I should have (for the sake of probability) done it at half, so that'll throw off the percentages given for falloff weapons...
I can recalculate later. Off to see the Great Wall now.
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2694
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2009-12-11 18:14
Quote:
| On 2009-12-11 00:47, Ian9018's Ghost wrote:
I think a spreadsheet with number values (derived from experiments or not) would actually be too revealing,
[cut]
I would hate to see DS become a "numbers game" since it relies of the people who play it to make decisions in combat as a part of who makes fireworks or not. Thats enough outta me though.
[/cut]
and a general flowchart or something with basic info would be more appropriate. It would only really apply to newer people as the more experienced players already have a feel for their ships. The weapon descriptions already work as very vague ideas of how a weapon performs, but they could be improved. |
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Perfect questions and suggestions.
Yes putting the numbers in here would just show you that there really isn't that much difference but still people would pick whatever does the most damage...
But guess what, i bet more people think this because i'm sup-prized i haven't seen the Gdoc link in here yet..
Flowchart? dude darn nice perfect idea.
Only problem is, what kind of flowchart do you want? because i can think of some that would be just as revealing as the actual device stats?
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2009-12-12 08:45
I could probably put together a doc that lists weapon, damage type, falloff yes/no. Range and approximate damage and all that I leave to experimentation. Anything else I should add to it?
(Not sure what a flowchart would be, but I'm open to suggestion)
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2009-12-12 14:29
OK here is what I know so far.
Particle Cannon (PC/Pcannon): 150% damage within 800gu of target, at max range only 50% damage. Range 1,000-1,600gu. Great damage!
Electronic Magnetic Pulse gun (EMP): Small range with fall off. Now dose only system damage and yes it dose work. I have noticed system damage when my hull is at 90% so it dose work. Damage bonus vs shields. Range 800-1,000gu.
Railgun (Rail): 100% damage at max range no fall off at all. Range 1,800-2,500gu. Damage is poor.
Gauss: Same as rail (?) in no fall off. Seems (from using it anyways) that it dose more damage or has a damage bonus vs Hull then it dose vs Armor. Damage is poorer then rail but has longer range and a small damage bonus vs hull. Range 2,000-3,000gu
PSI: Has fall off but I don't know by how much. From having used it it dose decent all around damage vs armor or hull. Decent damage even vs shields still. Range 1,200-1,600gu
Plasma (Plas/Plaz): No fall off now (don't know why really, its an energy wep duh!). Short range with small AoE effect. AoE is good since it damages not only the arc it hit but the other ones as well. Range 800-1,200gu. Damage is good while on hull poor vs armor.
Beams:
Chemical Lazar (CL): Really hasn't changed much at all. Decent damage, short range (150gu?). Damage increases as target gets closer (by how much I don't know).
Heavy Chemical Lazar (HCL): Great damage with a good range (250gu). Same as CL damage increases as target gets closer.
Disruptor: Kluth version of the CL. Better damage with a slightly longer range (about 200gu?). No damage fall off dose full damage regardless of targets range.
Assault Disruptor: Kluth HCL. Long range for a beam wep (300gu). Massive damage compared to its Human counterpart. No fall off of damage dose full damage regardless of target range.
Core Weapons: have a Min/Max damage to them. No damage fall off.
Quantum Singularity Torpedo (QST): UGTO Core weapon. Highest damage of all core weps. Big splash damage so be careful when using this as it will hurt you as well as your target. Range 1,400gu
Ion Cannon (IC): 2nd in max damage. Requires both shots to hit to do full potential damage. No splash, Range 2,000gu.
Stellar Interdictor (SI): Lowest max damage of all 3 cores but smallest Min/Max damage. No ammo limits. No splash despite its animation showing a big explosion. Range 1,000gu.
Missiles: No damage fall off (duh).
Ion Tracker (IT): Good damage in the higher level versions. High range capacity (1,400-3,000gu). Missile hits rear armor of target since it goes for the Ion Trail of the ship. Minimum firing range (200gu).
Anti Radar Missile (AR): Better damage then IT. Range is much shorter then the IT (800-2,000gu). Hits the facing it hits. Tracks smaller targets better then the IT. Smaller minimum range (150gu).
PSI Missile: Kluth version of IT missile. Shorter range then IT (about 1,500gu). Hits rear armor since it tracks like the IT.
Shredder missiles: Kluth AR version. Fires more missiles per a volley then the AR for a better chance of getting past Point Defense. Short range (1,200gu or so from what I have noticed). Hits armor it was facing.
Sabot rockets: Lower damage then IT or AR missiles but is unguided (Point Defense will not shoot these). Missile speed is slow and its range is poor (500-700gu). Effective range is 200gu vs dreads.
So there is what I have tested and noticed when flying the other factions. Ranges for Kluth weps were mere guesses or from what I have noticed when I was paying attention. Need some clarification on some of the ranges but those are guesses from what I have noticed while in battle and from using them in scenario.
Thats the kind of listing I was thinking of. Just a simple post with the list and there ranges and what there good against ect. I usually mix the 2 weapon types when i can to give a good damage spread I.E. Mix Rails and Gauss.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-12-12 15:54
My document shows Ion Cannons do 9000 average total damage per projectile (x2 projectiles so 18000), QSTs do 19000 per projectile, SI do 18425. The difference is QST seems to have a much larger base and random AOE damage. Before that damage is added, Ions do 6475 x2, QST do 10000 and SI do 15375.
Obviously SI have the least AOE damage, QST the most, and the overall average damage done by all three is roughly the same.
A few things have changed though. QSTs now do pure energy damage, SI are energy and PSI (meaningless at the moment), and SI's AOE damage has been reduced but impact increased. I still think the numbers are pretty accurate though.
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Sens [R33]
Admiral
Joined: September 27, 2008
Posts: 1020
From: Edge of th...
| Posted: 2009-12-12 18:12
Fantastic, now I don't have to divulge the real values!.
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2009-12-12 19:31
I know the numbers on the core weps but non of the others. Didn't put them in on purpose.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-12-12 20:49
Quote:
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On 2009-12-12 18:12, Sens wrote:
Fantastic, now I don't have to divulge the real values!.
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What's with the secrecy in this game anyway? Why are simple things like the stats of our weapons and gadgets a secret? What's the reasoning behind it? I don't know of any other game that keeps this much information away from it's players, even the most basic of info like what damage types our weapons are.
Imagine playing a MMORPG as a spellcaster and not having any info on what your spells do other than an extremely basic description, or as a warrior and not knowing the stats of your weapons and armor. Or imagine playing a space game and not knowing the stats of your weap...oops.
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2009-12-12 22:10
took my post and made a new topic for all to see. If someone can PM me or just find me when I am on and give me what type of damage each dose would be nice.
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There is a thin line between knowing when to give up and when to try harder.
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