On 2009-12-15 01:48, Enterprise wrote:
I always figured if we were to do free form modding like this, it would probably be a nightmare. Balancing something with very little limits is extremely difficult.

And you would have to really drastically alter the game in some cases. You would get stock hulls with badge and rank requirements.

The hulls, would come already outfitted with a certain amount of armor, reactors, shields (if applied) cloak, EW, etc. depending on the hull. The only thing that remains undecided is the weapon loadout.

Higher ranked hulls would have more slots, basically. The slots would be freeform, but be affected by size. So you would have the EAD, and it would have 7 small slots (cannons/lasers), 6 medium slots (missiles/torpedos) and 5 heavy slots (heavy lasers/ core weapons/heavy missiles).

Things like bombs, fighters, mines, etc. would come with specific hulls.

But thats how I always envisioned it, but then, I would be perfectly happy with already balanced and extensive varieties of ships that fit many different kinds of loadouts and roles, and just give me the option of boosting certain aspects of it (more weapon damage for more energy cost, etc.)




-Ent

On 2009-12-15 00:27, iwanii the top gear Gaifen wrote:

and hey, you have a whole stack of people liking this idea... seriously. listening to the players can work.

On 2009-12-15 03:48, Tael wrote:
1.484 was listening to the players and we saw how well that worked out for us.

On 2009-12-15 03:48, Tael wrote:

Really this game was originally about quick action and play. The modding system was a mistake. Making do all ships was a mistake.

The ships should each be layed out according to their role and be different enought that people will use them and use a variety of ships instead of a fleet of EAD's.

I have been thinking over stuff lately and wonder if we shouldn't remove all ECM/ECCM devices from all ships over destroyer except for the ICC Border cruiser (as that roll fills its spot in the game story line and explains its weaker weapons for a cruiser).

Bring back a need for mutli-class ship fleets.

On 2009-12-15 03:48, Tael wrote:


1.484 was listening to the players and we saw how well that worked out for us.

On 2009-12-15 03:48, Tael wrote:

Quote:

On 2009-12-15 00:27, iwanii the top gear Gaifen wrote: and hey, you have a whole stack of people liking this idea... seriously. listening to the players can work.

1.484 was listening to the players and we saw how well that worked out for us.

I originally wanted a three slider system. You could increase damage, range, energy/ammo. It is was deemed the simple modding and swapping devices was better and quicker for players to get into.

Another idea that was tossed around was a sort of slot and hull shape system like battletech. Devices take up so much space, each hull class gets x number of slots. Then to make each ship and race unique, those slots are arrayed differently.

Something like the Kluth Destroyers would have the majority of their slots up fore, the UGTO dreads being longer and sleaker have more on their two sides...

While all destroyers might have had 40 hull spaces, ICC might have had 10 fore, while Kluth had 25 fore... It went with the shape and size of the model.

Another take on it was that if we created a "shipyard" screen where you could go and look at a blueprint of the ship and place items in like Tetris. So if we made a ship fore hull section look like:

**XX**
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX

The each device had a certain geometry, say a CL was 3x1, HCL 4x1, and Torp was 4x2

Then the system limits you to:
6x CL
2x CL, 2x HCL
2xCL, 1x Torp


But all of these ideas were passed over...

Really this game was originally about quick action and play. The modding system was a mistake. Making do all ships was a mistake.

The ships should each be layed out according to their role and be different enought that people will use them and use a variety of ships instead of a fleet of EAD's.

I have been thinking over stuff lately and wonder if we shouldn't remove all ECM/ECCM devices from all ships over destroyer except for the ICC Border cruiser (as that roll fills its spot in the game story line and explains its weaker weapons for a cruiser).

Bring back a need for mutli-class ship fleets.

[ This Message was edited by: Tael on 2009-12-15 03:51 ]

On 2009-12-15 08:02, Pegasus wrote:

Quote:

On 2009-12-15 03:48, Tael wrote: Quote: On 2009-12-15 00:27, iwanii the top gear Gaifen wrote: and hey, you have a whole stack of people liking this idea... seriously. listening to the players can work. 1.484 was listening to the players and we saw how well that worked out for us. I originally wanted a three slider system. You could increase damage, range, energy/ammo. It is was deemed the simple modding and swapping devices was better and quicker for players to get into. Another idea that was tossed around was a sort of slot and hull shape system like battletech. Devices take up so much space, each hull class gets x number of slots. Then to make each ship and race unique, those slots are arrayed differently. Something like the Kluth Destroyers would have the majority of their slots up fore, the UGTO dreads being longer and sleaker have more on their two sides... While all destroyers might have had 40 hull spaces, ICC might have had 10 fore, while Kluth had 25 fore... It went with the shape and size of the model. Another take on it was that if we created a "shipyard" screen where you could go and look at a blueprint of the ship and place items in like Tetris. So if we made a ship fore hull section look like: **XX** XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX The each device had a certain geometry, say a CL was 3x1, HCL 4x1, and Torp was 4x2 Then the system limits you to: 6x CL 2x CL, 2x HCL 2xCL, 1x Torp But all of these ideas were passed over... Really this game was originally about quick action and play. The modding system was a mistake. Making do all ships was a mistake. The ships should each be layed out according to their role and be different enought that people will use them and use a variety of ships instead of a fleet of EAD's. I have been thinking over stuff lately and wonder if we shouldn't remove all ECM/ECCM devices from all ships over destroyer except for the ICC Border cruiser (as that roll fills its spot in the game story line and explains its weaker weapons for a cruiser). Bring back a need for mutli-class ship fleets. [ This Message was edited by: Tael on 2009-12-15 03:51 ]

I do like your configuration ideas Tael. I do miss modding my ships, many K'luth vets will agree the PSI cannon Scale/Claw is solely missed.

Hope modding makes a return sometime soon.

[ This Message was edited by: Pegasus on 2009-12-15 08:02 ]

On 2009-12-15 07:35, Enterprise wrote:

No one's going to fly a lower class ship just for the purpose of sensors. The only real faction affected by them is Kluth, and most people would just prefer to fly a big ship that can do alot of damage as opposed as to making their life difficult and being easy targets.

But the need to bring back multi-class fleets? Going to have to do something about those Dreads. You just can't compete on their level with any other ship. Why fly a lesser ship when they do everything better?




-Ent

On 2009-12-15 14:46, Hell Bender wrote:

As a Kluth, I would have to say when it comes to ships I like fighting, I'd always say Dreads or stations. While I can do a substantial amount of damage to anything smaller, the Cruisers can cause me more headaches than anything. With thier size, speed and suited firepower, a good team should be able to run circles around Kluth Dreads.

Think about it thisway: Kluth Dreads are nimble comparabley, and have a relatively short range unless you add in SI's and the occassional missle or Psi Cannon. So inorder to counter this, you don't use something slow with long range because the kluth will fire, cloak, move, decloak, fire, cloak ect ect. But if there were cruisers who could point jump together.... that would be a nightmare even for a well versed pilot. Little ECCM, little concentrated firepower.. reciepe for success!

On 2009-12-15 16:29, DrafElf wrote:
When working on the current incarnation of DarkSpace, I was more or less left on my own for a year and a half. I was working on integrating the features and design concepts from several different versions into one workable whole. I had to reverse engineer layout rules based on the 1.483 incarnation of the game, and come up with some kind of sensible way to at least balance the ships on paper.

The rules as they stand are limited, and only really relate to the total number of gadgets a ship can carry. Arc's are only decided when it comes to implementing that particular design, and are based on both the visual look and placement, as well as the intended feel for a particular layout. Many ships will have similar weapon positions, but none of these have ever been enshrined as law or set in stone from a design view.

This actually allows us an additional degree of flexibility and control when it comes to balancing various layouts. However, due to the aggregated nature of the development to date, these same hulls do not lend themselves to player customization. For this to happen, ALL ship models would need to be redesigned with those rules in mind.

Additionally, Faustus has made it clear on several occasions that he is in favor of very tight modding restrictions, which is what has led to this current incarnation. The development team has had to fight quite hard to retain just what we have now. I can understand why more restricted modding would be desired, as it ultimately gives us, the developers, much greater control over just what each player can do.

Instead, we have to look at other ways to introduce the feel of variety into DarkSpace. Part of this is with enhancements. Another part will be with weapon variations which are only available at limited locations. These variant will not be better or worse than existing weapons. Instead, they will be intended for use in different circumstances.

However, we have a few other challenges to deal with first before we can even consider looking at these proposals more seriously.

On 2009-12-15 16:29, DrafElf wrote:
When working on the current incarnation of DarkSpace, I was more or less left on my own for a year and a half. I was working on integrating the features and design concepts from several different versions into one workable whole. I had to reverse engineer layout rules based on the 1.483 incarnation of the game, and come up with some kind of sensible way to at least balance the ships on paper.

On 2009-12-15 14:46, Hell Bender wrote:

As a Kluth, I would have to say when it comes to ships I like fighting, I'd always say Dreads or stations. While I can do a substantial amount of damage to anything smaller, the Cruisers can cause me more headaches than anything. With thier size, speed and suited firepower, a good team should be able to run circles around Kluth Dreads.

Think about it thisway: Kluth Dreads are nimble comparabley, and have a relatively short range unless you add in SI's and the occassional missle or Psi Cannon. So inorder to counter this, you don't use something slow with long range because the kluth will fire, cloak, move, decloak, fire, cloak ect ect. But if there were cruisers who could point jump together.... that would be a nightmare even for a well versed pilot. Little ECCM, little concentrated firepower.. reciepe for success!