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Scen Engineers |
Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
|  Posted: 2010-04-24 04:51
I think im beginning to see the problem here.
Currently planetary defences with missiles do pretty much nothing against ships the size of a frigate. They jus cant hit it, if the pilot has even the slightest of skill. While you could then use ships to defend the engineer, these ships dont deal nearly enough damage to kill the attackers before the engineer is dead.
So, solutions:
Fix missiles
Use platforms to hide under
Keep moving and dodging while you build (yeah, thats a tough one)
Any other ideas?
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-04-24 11:07
The problem is saying the objective is to "win" by capping all flag planets and preventing the enemy from getting a SY.
When's the last time a team won a map by capping all flags, and the map wasn't being skipped?
Most of the time "win" means holding a majority of the flags only. Most of the time attacking enemy engineers to prevent them from getting a SY makes that team log off, and now you're stuck with large ships and no big targets.
It's in your best interest to build your SY as fast as you can while letting the enemy do the same, unless you suspect that they will rush to bomber dreads or stations and come and bomb your SY. Maps like Epsilon Ind for are great for this: one terran and a few arids, and it's usually a good battle and fun map. Epsilon Eri is fun, Sirius can be fun, Procyon is always fun and the battle usually takes place over who gets Pro 3 rather than preventing it from becoming a SY. But Luyten and Cygnus aren't fun (besides that, Luyten is bugged). Those maps are sometimes skipped entirely, and not coincidentally are the only maps won by capping all flags.
Most of the time I play scenario both teams usually get SYs up and running and it winds up being a good game. Sometimes though one or two rotten apples come along and do whatever they can to make sure the enemy cannot get a SY running. There's nothing wrong with it in the rules, it's perfectly acceptable, but know that it does no good for the map unless those rotten apples are also planning on capping all the flags and ending that map. They never do.
If your intention is to cap all flags then by all means do what you can to prevent the enemy from getting a SY and ensuring their victory. If your intention is to simply prevent their SY, ruffling some feathers in the process and /yelling your opinion on the engineer/SY matter, then all you're doing is ensuring you have no enemies to fight. You have to think about what it does to the game for that map. Do you want AI frigate targets, or humans for the next 2-3 hours? Do you want veteran human targets, or newbie targets who either don't understand the handicap of not having a SY or don't care?
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ssj4megaman
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2003
Posts: 54
From: San Diego
| Posted: 2010-04-24 12:10
Quote:
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On 2010-04-24 11:07, MrSparkle wrote:
The problem is saying the objective is to "win" by capping all flag planets and preventing the enemy from getting a SY.
When's the last time a team .....
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This is why i think we need just a fleet war server where you gain prestige, because pretty much that is what people want to do... the problem is people who need the badges of everything else wont be able to get it if they cannot build, bomb etc so....
The one problem i have and maybe it is just me since its been a while since i have been in a small ship... but mainly when i am luth in scen and starting out. it is freaking almost impossible to destroy or even get to the armor of these icc corvettes and such with the starting ships. I remember this 1 corvette going after our engies and i was trying to run some sort of defense and after 2 min of trying to hit him his shield was still at 75% and he could easily take out any ship i was in, given enough time and most of the time didnt even attack me, just attack the engies and ignored me most of the time. and with the torp he has, was easily to hull an engie with just a few hits. but that is the main thing i have seen multiple times specifically when playin luth in scen.
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James 296
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 19, 2009
Posts: 141
| Posted: 2010-04-24 17:49
Thank you devs for your input and anyone else, but please do continue. I would like to settle this arguement that is in the community once and for all so we don't send mixed signals to new players......oh please do help our new players and show them what a great (althrough arguementive  ) community this is
thanks
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Doran
Chief Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 29, 2003
Posts: 4032
From: The Gideon Unit
| Posted: 2010-04-24 18:53
Quote:
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On 2010-04-24 17:49, James296 wrote:
settle this arguement once and for all |
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see posts #2 and #5
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-04-24 19:20
Quote:
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On 2010-04-24 17:49, James296 wrote:
Thank you devs for your input and anyone else, but please do continue. I would like to settle this arguement that is in the community once and for all so we don't send mixed signals to new players......oh please do help our new players and show them what a great (althrough arguementive ) community this is
thanks
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It's settled. Nobody should ever expect to be left alone. If a player wants to build, he is at risk of being destroyed. There is no rule that says engineers cannot be attacked.
The nature of scenario lately though means that he may not be bothered by other players, unless he's building a planet too close to the enemy or something. Most of the time people leave engineers alone, but sometimes they don't, and it just has to be dealt with. If you're trying to build on a particular map and one or more enemies won't leave you alone, it's best to either do it back to them or just log off and play MV for a while. Most of the time you'll notice that the players bothering engineers in the beginning of a map are not vets. Vets will probably be building the shipyards, extracting, building other key planets etc. They neither have the time nor the reason to bother the enemy engineers, and in fact want the other team to get an operable shipyard so they aren't stuck fighting AI, scouts and frigates.
That's the nature of scenario, but it's not always like that, and there's no rule saying it has to be.
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Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2010-04-25 06:39
Quote:
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On 2010-04-24 19:20, MrSparkle wrote:
...Most of the time you'll notice that the players bothering engineers in the beginning of a map are not vets...
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that is a blatently incorrect statement sir.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-04-25 12:41
I play scenario all the time (except for the past week, RL stuff), I think I'd know. Most vets do not harass enemy engineers, they are too busy doing the important stuff like building, capping and extracting.
It's the newer players in their frigates that harass engineers usually. There's always exceptions, but in scenario vets know what's imporant for the map and they do it, and harassing enemy engineers is not only not important, it's counterproductive. Why rush to a SY when your enemy won't have one?
I'll let you in on a little secret: People don't play scenario to win maps anymore. They play to have fleet vs fleet battles. It's why you never see maps end by capping all the flags (aside from maps being skipped) and always see a few dreads later on in a map.
Maybe giving an actual bonus for winning a map by capping all the flags is needed? One of the reasons nobody does it is because the reward is so miniscule it's not worth having to start over on the next map.
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Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2010-04-25 13:04
Here, ill edit it for what it should have said
Quote:
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On 2010-04-25 12:41, MrSparkle wrote:
I play scenario all the time , I think I know. Players are too busy doing the important stuff like learning how to build, trying to cap planets, or get a kill in random ships.
It's the newer players in their frigates that harass engineers while they still dont know how to do anything. There's always exceptions, but in scenario, harassing enemy engineers is not only important, it's strategic. Why let your enemy rush to a SY when you won't have one?
I'll let you in on a little secret: People don't play in the MV to cap planets anymore. They play to have fleet vs fleet battles. It's why you never see MV's end by capping all the planets and always see a few stations chilling in orbit.
Maybe giving an actual bonus for winning the MV? One of the reasons nobody does it is because the reward is so miniscule it's not worth having to start over on the next map.
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Fixed.
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Scorched Soul[+R]
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: November 14, 2005
Posts: 378
From: USA, NJ, Princeton
| Posted: 2010-04-28 16:18
Quote:
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On 2010-04-23 16:36, BackSlash wrote:
Any ship is fair game at any point in time.
If any players are forcing others or threatening to FF them, /report it, and the a member of staff will deal with it.
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Quote:
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On 2010-04-23 16:57, Faustus wrote:
Honestly, it's pretty crazy if there is some sorta of truce on attacking engineer's in scenario, that's just part of the dynamics of the game. If your team wants to have the first SY then you better protect your engineers from attack.
If we didn't think so, then we would have made your weapons disable when you target them
-F
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I guess my new plan is not to attempt to disuade people out of attacking engineers but to mearly build a supply plat and sit under it for however long it lasts, rinse and repeat.
Its quite litarily a case of adapt or die. . . Adapt it is!
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-04-28 21:21
Plats can be eliminated pretty fast too. U just need the right weapons.
It's best to use a combi of plats, combat ships, and movement to survive. Engies are such fragile things…
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Fallen |3lood Angel*Kiyoh*
Vice Admiral
Joined: November 29, 2009
Posts: 47
From: Lagrange 4
| Posted: 2010-04-28 23:58
personally, i leave player engineers alone if I don't know there name, cause it could it be a new player, and I would like to atleast give them a chance to learn some basic building skills before they try building in the mv. If its a player I know, i'm popping them for fun.
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Don't waste your time, Or time will waste you.
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Siginau
Fleet Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 72
| Posted: 2010-04-29 01:41
i lol'ed when someone said dont kill engies 
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2010-04-29 04:12
Quote:
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On 2010-04-24 02:00, Fast Starcommand *CO* wrote:
I see a lot of WAC players here and mostly is why I quit scenario. I love building and its great, but with scen no longer progressive you have one mining beam to attempt to get a plat or two up to defend yourself. This is NOT possible with 1 beam in the first 5 min or so of a map to defend you and the planet you just capped.
There was once a time in scen when engiees were safe to build a let both teams get the tarren/arid planets so you can have even balanced fun combat. Why do most people want to get to dreads? MORE PRES! Scout combat is fun but it aint worth half the effort in pres to do. Getting to cruisers and dreads people will make more combat pres. Something called escalation.
Now engiees aren't safe and its night impossible to defend them from scouts or frigs. All the enemy has to do is kill the engiee and then turn to the threat thats attacking him. Engiees die way too fast and armor is way too thin, which is half the reason I liked to use a SCB in scenario on a new map. The over-sized over-glorified engiee that CAN defend itself from attack.
Case in point. Building is fun and its pointless to attack that engiee ship, your are not helping anyone. Its just gonna cause the person you killed to target your engiees too, which then no one will get anything done. Yes the obj is to "win" the scenario but try and have some fun too while your at it. People will want to stay on the good maps (ones with 2 or more tarren/arid planets) while other maps are generally skipped in favor for said maps. A little less WAC will make it a more enjoyable place for all who wish to play.
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+1 couldnt agree more.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-04-29 09:15
So where's the button to report posts where people purposely misquote you?
Harassing enemy engineers is not important and not strategic unless you plan on capping all the flags or the engineer is building a planet dangerously close to yours. If you want to say it is important and strategic then post it yourself, don't misquote me.
If you are simply trying to deny them a shipyard without capping all the flags then your plan is to annoy the enemy rather than win. Don't even try to say it's not, I know you. Whenever I see this happen the team doing it is not interesting in capping the flags, they're interested in hearing the other team complain in /y.
Honestly though I don't care anymore. It's that exact attitude from multiple people here that's killed my desire to play the past week. I don't play that way and won't play when others do...I have WoW to play instead.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2010-04-29 09:23 ]
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