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 Author Wow
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2010-04-27 00:02   
Quote:

On 2010-04-26 23:54, JBud *Scientia* wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-04-26 21:37, Azreal wrote:
This is why wh fishing WAS banned once. Now it's been reinterpreted to mean something different.

Bannable offense, eh? How many of the enemy noobs know that to report it if it is being done?

Players rely too much on mods, and mods are relying too much on /report to do the job adequately.


I don't believe that it was wormhole fishing being exloited here, it's perfectly legal. What I think Jack is saying is, spawning a station, using it's wormhole, scraping it and spawning a new station to "spam" wormholes that is illegal.





Technically speaking, then it would not be exactly illegal wouldn't it?

Let's say it's not scraping stations.... Let's say the dude does have 5 stations in his garage (God knows why, but let's just assume), and he's in orbit. He throws a WH, then docks and gets into the next station to throw another one.


That's illegal? Pls clarify.


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G.Adm. Kirk
Grand Admiral
Courageous Elite Commandos


Joined: May 13, 2005
Posts: 91
From: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: 2010-04-27 00:28   
Seems related to good old fashioned drive swapping. If ships took resources to spawn, this wouldn't be an issue. (Or, at least not a big issue).
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights


Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2694
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
Posted: 2010-04-27 02:09   
9, Nine. thats a lot but not the limit i have seen. (14)

But a WH is capable to Lag a client and or have a influence to decync a client in proximity.
Reason why i don't like to see more than two in the same 5000gu region at a time.

No mod/admin myself but they should look at 3.3.7 and re-write it. Swapping from cargo is no longer possible but as you all know, using garage or scrap/spawn is still possible and i think these should be added.



My 3 solid euro cents.
E.
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Fatal Command (CO)
Marshal
Fatal Squadron


Joined: November 27, 2002
Posts: 1158
From: over here in New York noticing some ppl are like canoes.....they need to be paddled.
Posted: 2010-04-27 02:59   
just get rid of WH.they are a deterrent to combat.exploitable in several ways (I know 3,just dont use em) and really not used except TO fish,Either get rid of WHs or quit frigging QQing.


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SPaRTaN Z
Chief Marshal

Joined: June 26, 2009
Posts: 235
Posted: 2010-04-27 03:30   
but fitting Wh takes resources..
and when u do this it has to charge...
what am i missing? a player might be able to have 2 active wh opens from the 1 ship.. unless..
U spawn 8 stations.. charge all the wh's , then spawn station and create wh's one at a time.
its not exactly an exploit..
perhaps make a min sy cooloff of 2 minutes
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Zero28
Grand Admiral

Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
Posted: 2010-04-27 06:19   
Quote:

On 2010-04-27 02:59, Fatal Command*CO* wrote:
just get rid of WH.they are a deterrent to combat.exploitable in several ways (I know 3,just dont use em) and really not used except TO fish,Either get rid of WHs or quit frigging QQing.





You obviously don't know how to properly use WHs

THe pic there maybe don't show it as "WH fishing" BUt can we be sure about it? Not only there alot of them but they are around a planet others hugs, so there has to be an attempted Wh Fishing there
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Doubelieve
Grand Admiral

Joined: February 25, 2007
Posts: 18
Posted: 2010-04-27 10:00   
They only had stations out. there were no command carriers at all.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy


Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
Posted: 2010-04-27 13:01   
Since the screenshot doesn't show the source end of the WHs very clearly, I can't comment on whether this is illegal WH fishing or not.

What IS clear, however, is that someone is circumventing recharge timers in some way. The precedent is clear: Swapping out devices to circumvent timers is illegal. Thus, swapping out entire SHIPS to circumvent timers is also illegal. Normally this doesn't particularly matter, since most devices have fairly short recharge timers and/or are hard to abuse, for example jump drives. Wormholes, however, have long recharge timers for an obvious reason: They have a powerful effect on the battlefield. Circumventing that timer is, in my opinion as a staff member, illegal regardless of the method used for said circumventing.
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G.Adm. Kirk
Grand Admiral
Courageous Elite Commandos


Joined: May 13, 2005
Posts: 91
From: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: 2010-04-27 13:04   
Quote:

On 2010-04-27 03:30, SPaRTaN Z wrote:
but fitting Wh takes resources..
and when u do this it has to charge...
what am i missing? a player might be able to have 2 active wh opens from the 1 ship.. unless..
U spawn 8 stations.. charge all the wh's , then spawn station and create wh's one at a time.
its not exactly an exploit..
perhaps make a min sy cooloff of 2 minutes



Ships themselves don't take resources to spawn right now, otherwise I would agree with you.
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Fatal Command (CO)
Marshal
Fatal Squadron


Joined: November 27, 2002
Posts: 1158
From: over here in New York noticing some ppl are like canoes.....they need to be paddled.
Posted: 2010-04-27 13:09   
Quote:

On 2010-04-27 06:19, Zero28 wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-04-27 02:59, Fatal Command*CO* wrote:
just get rid of WH.they are a deterrent to combat.exploitable in several ways (I know 3,just dont use em) and really not used except TO fish,Either get rid of WHs or quit frigging QQing.





You obviously don't know how to properly use WHs

THe pic there maybe don't show it as "WH fishing" BUt can we be sure about it? Not only there alot of them but they are around a planet others hugs, so there has to be an attempted Wh Fishing there



I do know how to use them properly and improperly I just dont care for em.They are inaccurate,have an extremely long CD, have a tendency to fail when really needed and allow the enemy to go where you go,which means they dont even have to try to track you.






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Sens [R33]
Admiral

Joined: September 27, 2008
Posts: 1020
From: Edge of th...
Posted: 2010-04-27 13:59   
I'd like to point out that using garaged ships will not reset the timer on each ship's (individual) WHD, it isn't circumvention, rather a delay. In any case its very unsportsmanlike and there's a chance you might spawn into our own wormhole!
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Shigernafy
Admiral

Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
Posted: 2010-04-27 14:53   
Quote:

On 2010-04-27 13:59, Sensitivity wrote:
I'd like to point out that using garaged ships will not reset the timer on each ship's (individual) WHD, it isn't circumvention, rather a delay. In any case its very unsportsmanlike and there's a chance you might spawn into our own wormhole!



You may not be circumventing that particular ship's WH generator, as it is still recharging when you gate the ship, but the fact that you can spawn another ship and another wormhole before the first ship's WH gadget has recharged is considered circumventing the recharge timer on the original device.

If you pick the wrong target and think "shoot, wrong system" and spawn a new ship to head off to the correct destination, I don't think any mod will mind. If you're continually spawning a number of ships to spawn a number of wormholes in the same area for the purposes of spamming WHs, fishing for others, or some other combat-related role, then its a problem. Even if you aren't scrapping and spawning and login later to sit around for 20 minutes and watch your drives charge, it is still an exploit.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal

Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
Posted: 2010-04-27 17:05   
Playing the system instead of the game is considered exploit.

By repeatedly spawning ships in that manner, to circumvent the timers, it falls under that violation.


BTW, seldom does a wh fail anymore. Also, the cooldown timer is not anywhere like it used to be. By the time a wh closes, I seem to be nearly 2/3 charged again.
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2010-04-27 17:07 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black


Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
Posted: 2010-04-27 23:26   
Quote:

On 2010-04-27 14:53, Shigernafy wrote:
Quote:

On 2010-04-27 13:59, Sensitivity wrote:
I'd like to point out that using garaged ships will not reset the timer on each ship's (individual) WHD, it isn't circumvention, rather a delay. In any case its very unsportsmanlike and there's a chance you might spawn into our own wormhole!



You may not be circumventing that particular ship's WH generator, as it is still recharging when you gate the ship, but the fact that you can spawn another ship and another wormhole before the first ship's WH gadget has recharged is considered circumventing the recharge timer on the original device.

If you pick the wrong target and think "shoot, wrong system" and spawn a new ship to head off to the correct destination, I don't think any mod will mind. If you're continually spawning a number of ships to spawn a number of wormholes in the same area for the purposes of spamming WHs, fishing for others, or some other combat-related role, then its a problem. Even if you aren't scrapping and spawning and login later to sit around for 20 minutes and watch your drives charge, it is still an exploit.





So how about closing the "exploit" or loophole instead of penalizing players for finding creative ways to utilize the game's or ships' features?



If a player uses certain weapons or capabilities in an unconventional fashion (but it is possible within the game's engine/physics/etc), and some other players don't like it 'cos they can't think of a way to counter it.... does it become illegal then?


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Shigernafy
Admiral

Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
Posted: 2010-04-28 07:22   
What would you suggest, then? Make it so players are unable to go through gates or into shipyards if they have any gadgets charging? Cause that sounds like a lot of fun.
Its not just a simple bug that lets you click the WH device a few times and spawn a few wormholes. Its a much more complicated misuse of a game mechanic. Changing the mechanic to avoid a rare misuse of it would have negative consequences for all, outweighing the benefit of closing an exploit.

And basically, yes, that's how you get an exploit: The use of a game mechanic in an unplanned and undesigned manner which isn't counterable and which has overall negative consequences on the game. WHs, due to their duration and disruption of the playing field, the lag they cause some, and their potential power, should not be able to be spawned infinitely. We're ok with them in such a frequency as the gadget recharge allows... but someone able to spawn them infinitely and rapidly through the use of constantly respawning is exceeding the design of the gadget and thus breaking the rules.
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