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Leonide
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 1553
From: Newport News, Virginia
|  Posted: 2010-04-28 15:17
just get rid of WH devices completely. no need to keep them.
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captain of the ICC Assault Cruiser C.S.S. Sledgehammer
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Scorched Soul[+R]
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: November 14, 2005
Posts: 378
From: USA, NJ, Princeton
| Posted: 2010-04-28 15:37
in my opinion there isnt even good reasoning behind attempting such a thing
is the one or 2 dreads worth or prestige you could POSSIBLY gain really worth the ban you are quickly heading towards if some compitent person in the room decides to use /report
in addition when that happens, because it will eventualy, it dirupts gameplay while the Mod comes over and deals with the issue
to put it plainly the potential risks don't outway the potential reward
[ This Message was edited by: Scorched Soul on 2010-04-28 15:38 ]
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Necrotic
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 378
| Posted: 2010-04-28 15:45
i was actually playin on this map and im in the picture. what i can tell you from memory that no one that i saw was spaning wormholes. i did however notice wormholes were staying up particularly long. i dont believe even switching out shiips u can spawn a wh off a fresh station becuse it needs to charge.
something about the server that day was keeping the wh up longer then it should have.
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No matter how hard they have tried. They havnt figured out how to nerf skill yet :P
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-04-28 23:10
Quote:
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On 2010-04-28 07:22, Shigernafy wrote:
What would you suggest, then? Make it so players are unable to go through gates or into shipyards if they have any gadgets charging? Cause that sounds like a lot of fun.
Its not just a simple bug that lets you click the WH device a few times and spawn a few wormholes. Its a much more complicated misuse of a game mechanic. Changing the mechanic to avoid a rare misuse of it would have negative consequences for all, outweighing the benefit of closing an exploit.
And basically, yes, that's how you get an exploit: The use of a game mechanic in an unplanned and undesigned manner which isn't counterable and which has overall negative consequences on the game. WHs, due to their duration and disruption of the playing field, the lag they cause some, and their potential power, should not be able to be spawned infinitely. We're ok with them in such a frequency as the gadget recharge allows... but someone able to spawn them infinitely and rapidly through the use of constantly respawning is exceeding the design of the gadget and thus breaking the rules.
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I'm not intentionally challenging you guys for a kick, nor am I being cranky or difficult. Just want to make things clear on what is considered an exploit, and what is considered unorthodox use of a game's feature. And to make clear what the grey areas are.
Let's say I have 5 stations in my garage, and I'm orbiting a planet trying to reel in some ships for my buddies to thrash.
I throw out a WH, and immediately dock and respawn there with ANOTHER station... not the same station, mind you, and certainly not scrapping it for a new one..... but another station that I already own.
And I throw out another WH again, before the first one has gone down. And then I repeat it till I've used up my 5 stations.
That's illegal? But I certainly didn't circumvent any timer. I'm simply cycling through my ships and using their weapons and then redocking.
Where is the line drawn? What is considered an exploit, and what is considered creative/unorthodox, but not illegal, use of your ships' features?
This is clearly a grey area. And unless I've hacked the client to give me an advantage, or am using a known bug (like reverse jumping), it shouldn't be even considered an exploit. I don't want to hear explanations about what constitutes "sportmanship" or "gentlemanly" playing.... 'cos I'd save that for sports activities.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-04-28 23:13 ]
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... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
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Fallen |3lood Angel*Kiyoh*
Vice Admiral
Joined: November 29, 2009
Posts: 47
From: Lagrange 4
| Posted: 2010-04-29 00:05
im not even gonna finish reading, i stopped at end of page 2. my answer? make wh's disappear a few seconds after the ship that spawned them sy's. problem solved
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Don't waste your time, Or time will waste you.
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Siginau
Fleet Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 72
| Posted: 2010-04-29 01:47
how does eve not have any exploits 
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2010-04-29 04:20
idea. limit of wormholes per user or 1 or 2. that would fix this. OR
you SY/die = wormhole disappears
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Dwarden
Admiral
CHIMERA
Joined: June 07, 2001
Posts: 1072
From: Czech Republic
| Posted: 2010-04-29 12:26
WH cooldowntimeout (60s+) after spawning new ship or from SY would help with the issue too ...
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... Ideas? ... that's Ocean w/o borders !
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-04-30 09:15
Quote:
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On 2010-04-28 23:10, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Let's say I have 5 stations in my garage, and I'm orbiting a planet trying to reel in some ships for my buddies to thrash.
I throw out a WH, and immediately dock and respawn there with ANOTHER station... not the same station, mind you, and certainly not scrapping it for a new one..... but another station that I already own.
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Okay, first things first: The RoC says:
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3.1.1.d: All Players should adhere to the Code of Sportsmanship.
As a game involving more than one Player, all Players should abide by this prime rule: Be honest and fair to one another at all times; win well and lose well; and always keep in mind that it IS just a game. Have fun and share it.
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So I'm afraid that discussions on sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct are just as appropriate here as they are in any sport.
So you have eight stations, all with charged wormhole devices. Good for you. You can create eight wormhole all at once, right?
Wrong.
Quote:
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3.3.7 Weapon/Device Swapping
Description: Swapping out devices to circumvent the recharge time and energy usage.
Why it's an Exploit: The limitation for devices was coded to prevent rapid firing and jumping. Swapping devices in and out to circumvent this is a clear exploit of this designed limitation. This will be addressed in code in the future.
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Here, we see that it's illegal to swap out for a fully-charged device in order to circumvent the recharge timer.
How is this relevant?
Because when you swap out that ship, you are also swapping out all of the devices for fresh ones. Yes, they're mounted on another ship, but you're still exhanging the set of devices you're controlling for another set.
A set that is fully-charged, and which therefore falls foul of the above exploit.
The game doesn't complain about this because 99% of the time it's impractical to exploit. Most devices recharge quickly enough that it's difficult to find situations where heading to a shipyard and getting a new ship gives any advantages. Wormholes are the main exception to this.
In addition to this, womholes are complex game objects and put significant strain on the server as well as game clients, potentially causing them to desync or become disconnected. Obviously, this is not how you're meant to defeat the enemy, and is just as illegal as the now-fixed bug where you could crash someone's client by firing big piles of beacons at them.
So, in short: Spamming wormholes or otherwise circumventing device timers by swapping ships is essentially equivalent to the now-obsolete device-swapping exploits. Normally it's basically impossible to take advantage of this exploit, but wormholes are the distinct exception.
As a guideline: I only want to ever see one wormhole originating from the orbit of a planet at a time. In fact, due to the appallingly bad accuracy of wormholes, I'd suggest that you use them to insert an assault force rather than try and fish with them.
Are we entirely clear now?
[ This Message was edited by: Gejaheline on 2010-04-30 10:03 ]
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[Darkspace Moderator] [Galactic Navy Fleet Officer]
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Fatal Command (CO)
Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: November 27, 2002
Posts: 1158
From: over here in New York noticing some ppl are like canoes.....they need to be paddled.
| Posted: 2010-04-30 17:02
yeah,,,,now its 5 different ppl in stations.all do 1 and wait on recharge...not an exploit then is it?Nah,couldnt be a mod was present at the time.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-04-30 23:08
Quote:
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On 2010-04-30 09:15, Gejaheline wrote:
Are we entirely clear now?
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If the point is that the RoC should be updated to reflect the ACTUAL GAMEPLAY abilities currently available, sure. It's crystal clear.
Nobody (especially a new player) reading the RoC is going to see that rule that covers a COMPLETELY different set of circumstances, and stretch that rule like a taffy puller to extrapolate the interprtation you have come up with.
That rule states that swapping A DEVICE OUT in A SHIP to avoid timers is an exploit. We havent been able to do that particular exploit for 3 or four years and 3 versions.
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bucket link
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-01 03:20
Quote:
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On 2010-04-30 09:15, Gejaheline wrote:
Are we entirely clear now?
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What a convoluted answer.
How about you just update the RoC with the specific line that says exactly what you mean, rather than expect players to actually draw parallels between now-defunct device swapping and this WH spamming thing?
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... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
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Fatal Command (CO)
Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: November 27, 2002
Posts: 1158
From: over here in New York noticing some ppl are like canoes.....they need to be paddled.
| Posted: 2010-05-01 07:32
ok...this is MY opinion of WH.I looked it over.thought about it,and after reading,rereading and having others NOT playing the game read it I have come to the conclusion that WH fishing is an exploit.to explain my conclusions I pulled this straight from the RoC.
The simplest definition of exploitation is playing the game system instead of playing the game. Also, playing the game in ways it is not meant to be played for any form of personal gain, be it in-game resources or entertainment value. Such definitions are ambiguous at best, however, so they must be further defined and exemplified. To this end, a list shall be maintained in this section of all current exploits that are actionable by the game officials. Please note that this list is subject to change from time to time as the underlying game is strengthened or other bugs/weaknesses are unintentionally introduced.
this being said,I thought about it and considered this when making this decision for me and for FS.
Wormholes were not designed to bring the enemy to you but rather to take you to a place to stage an attack on the enemy or to assist in retrieving a Fleet stuck in enemy space. Uing the above statements regarding exploits,using a wh to retrieve/fish an enemy player from a place where it is Reasonably safe (ie repairing and/or such ) is using the device in a manner NOT orginally intended and as such ,is exploiting the game system/mechanics.
In regards to MY choice of the words reasonably safe I mean that they are at a place where they Could be attacked by a single or fleet of ships but would have a small notice of such attack by the planetary defense system.Granted there is no warnings given for WH (at this time) but the WH itself should constitute a warning to all in the area an enemy is about to arrive.WHng bypasses any and all risks to the person fishing for enemy ships,to engage said ship,while placing the enemy ship in a position they normally cant escape from without maxium risk and damage if not outright death.yet the person placing the wormhole remains completely free of the same risk.
ok...my two cents.
your final word on the matter please Developers.
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Glaceon
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 08, 2010
Posts: 141
| Posted: 2010-05-02 11:45
Quote:
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On 2010-05-01 07:32, Fatal Command*CO* wrote:
ok...this is MY opinion of WH.I looked it over.thought about it,and after reading,rereading and having others NOT playing the game read it I have come to the conclusion that WH fishing is an exploit.to explain my conclusions I pulled this straight from the RoC.
The simplest definition of exploitation is playing the game system instead of playing the game. Also, playing the game in ways it is not meant to be played for any form of personal gain, be it in-game resources or entertainment value. Such definitions are ambiguous at best, however, so they must be further defined and exemplified. To this end, a list shall be maintained in this section of all current exploits that are actionable by the game officials. Please note that this list is subject to change from time to time as the underlying game is strengthened or other bugs/weaknesses are unintentionally introduced.
this being said,I thought about it and considered this when making this decision for me and for FS.
Wormholes were not designed to bring the enemy to you but rather to take you to a place to stage an attack on the enemy or to assist in retrieving a Fleet stuck in enemy space. Uing the above statements regarding exploits,using a wh to retrieve/fish an enemy player from a place where it is Reasonably safe (ie repairing and/or such ) is using the device in a manner NOT orginally intended and as such ,is exploiting the game system/mechanics.
In regards to MY choice of the words reasonably safe I mean that they are at a place where they Could be attacked by a single or fleet of ships but would have a small notice of such attack by the planetary defense system.Granted there is no warnings given for WH (at this time) but the WH itself should constitute a warning to all in the area an enemy is about to arrive.WHng bypasses any and all risks to the person fishing for enemy ships,to engage said ship,while placing the enemy ship in a position they normally cant escape from without maxium risk and damage if not outright death.yet the person placing the wormhole remains completely free of the same risk.
ok...my two cents.
your final word on the matter please Developers.
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i agree on the warning there should be a start up timer on the wh like 10 secs (to get the space to warp enough to create a wh) and on the other side of the WH players will get a warrning saying either in coms or like the collision alert thing saying "Waring a worm hole is forming with in 1000 gu in the next 10 secs). stuff like that so they can avoid being WHed to planets ect.
and that is my 2 cents
[ This Message was edited by: Mal2103 {R33} on 2010-05-02 11:47 ]
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El Guapo
Chief Marshal
Joined: February 24, 2004
Posts: 276
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
| Posted: 2010-05-02 13:52
Quote:
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On 2010-04-28 07:22, Shigernafy wrote:
What would you suggest, then? Make it so players are unable to go through gates or into shipyards if they have any gadgets charging? Cause that sounds like a lot of fun.
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I really like this idea.
How soon can this be put into place?
I would also like to see, all the devices such as Jdrive and weapons having to recharged every time a ship is spawned out of a garage. I really do like the idea of not being able to put a ship away till all the devices are charged... really, really, do like that idea.
The above ideas would really help to stop the abuse of the game through exploits.
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