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Proposed roles for each ship hull/class |
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
|  Posted: 2010-07-19 13:22
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On 2010-07-19 00:23, MrSparkle wrote:
In this game the only thing truly effective vs a dread is another dread, or possibly a station (the new frigates with sparrows are good too but I think they're too good from too far away, meaning no risk to them for their effectiveness).
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Since Sparrow/Peregrine range was reduced it's not so long range as it was, it's around 1600 GU now. There's only "no risk" if the enemy is dumb enough to ignore them and not jump them with a couple smaller ships.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-07-19 15:07
a destroyer pack can dart into a very hostile cluster, do some damage, and make it out alive while a dread pack will be owned by planet def
(example mycopia cluster, with over lapping def and dictors)
if you do balance ds like an army rts, its balanced right now. In army rts smaller ships are weaker, but you can use more of them. Since in ds you can only use 1 ship at a time, we get stuck with lone weak ships instead of a large pack of small ships.
Strange thing about dessies and pointjump: dessie can dodge alot (80% of projectiles/cannons) by traveling nearly perpendicular to friring spot. Beams however will still hit
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-07-19 15:53
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On 2010-07-19 15:07, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
a destroyer pack can dart into a very hostile cluster, do some damage, and make it out alive while a dread pack will be owned by planet def
(example mycopia cluster, with over lapping def and dictors)
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And if that were anywhere near an effective tactic, don't you think people would do it?
Oh yes, they don't.
You don't see destroyer fleets hounding a bigger dread fleet. You don't because its easier to camp a planet with a fleet of dreads and wait for the other fleet to leave their planet.
Unlike other MMOs you have access to the same ships of a lower level regardless of level.
See I hate to say this, but EvE got it right. Yeah, that dreaded oh god that game. See EvE doesn't even really have the concept of levels, but when it comes to bigger ships, it takes longer to get them, just like here.
But see the difference is that there, smaller ships never lose their useability. Mostly because their larger ships don't suffer from kill everything ability.
I feel like DS would benefit similarily from the same kind of diversity. I honestly get bored of this game when all I do is fly dreadnaughts, which is really the only option because thats really the only true counter to other dreadnaughts. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional.
Also, not being forced into dreads anymore means more tactics than just grouping up in a ball of ships and hitting spacebar. You actually have to think about what ship you're bringing out into a fight. It used to be alot more fun this way and I'm anxious to see it again.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2010-07-19 15:57 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-07-19 16:42
if ur bored go try and dart in to an enemy cluster with a dessie
you icc may be able to camp planets with ur long range, but u can fire pretty much cannons and cores before we can ever dream of getting close
as long as you maintain range u icc can seige planets
ugto has to get in close to do any real damage, the only long range ship we have is probably the SS
i will bet you if you dart in an enemy cluster with a dread solo, you will die quickly, do it correctly with a dessie and you can live longer
eve makes it so dreads cant hit frigates etc etc but in eve a frigate cant damage a dread
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-07-19 19:12
[quote]
On 2010-07-19 16:42, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
if ur bored go try and dart in to an enemy cluster with a dessie
you icc may be able to camp planets with ur long range, but u can fire pretty much cannons and cores before we can ever dream of getting close
as long as you maintain range u icc can seige planets
ugto has to get in close to do any real damage, the only long range ship we have is probably the SS
i will bet you if you dart in an enemy cluster with a dread solo, you will die quickly, do it correctly with a dessie and you can live longer
[quote]
Of course. But the dessie isn't going to be effective.
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eve makes it so dreads cant hit frigates etc etc but in eve a frigate cant damage a dread
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Exactly. But a bunch can. Here though, dreads don't have a problem taking out smaller ships. Thats a big problem.
Also, I'm not going to fly a different ship to not be bored because Ill be bored because I'm not doing any good. No win situation.
-Ent
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-07-19 21:00
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On 2010-07-19 16:42, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
if ur bored go try and dart in to an enemy cluster with a dessie
you icc may be able to camp planets with ur long range, but u can fire pretty much cannons and cores before we can ever dream of getting close |
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Know this, before you joined the game there was a version update that REDUCED the ranges of all cannons. The difference now between ICC and UGTO cannons is a small 300gu gap, 250gu for core weps.
Before this update, your statement would of been true. ICC rail-guns had a 1500gu range, Ion Cannons had a 1950gu range and Gauss had a 2250gu range. It clearly showed ICC's range as supreme. Somehow the devs got it in there heads that to reduce CPU load in large combats, that they were going to reduce the ranges of weps, thus reducing the number of collision checks. It was supposed to reduce lag, yet to this day it hasn't had ANY effect on anything, and it hurt ICC the most with that range nerf. (old ranges for UGTO were 1400gu for particle cannons, 1600gu for QST, Kluth had 1200gu for its PSI, 900 for its Plasma and 800gu for its SI).
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as long as you maintain range u icc can siege planets
ugto has to get in close to do any real damage, the only long range ship we have is probably the SS
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That is IF....IF ICC can keep its range. Which is Incredibly difficult with ranges being what they are now. UGTO have the SAME EFFING MISSILES ICC DOSE. Your ships fire only TWO less then our own, our MD fires as many missiles as your SS. The Missile Cruisers ARE THE SAME.
As for the rest of the topic. Dreads are good yes but can be beaten by smaller ships in large numbers. However if two fleets of the same number, one Cruiser one Dread, fight each-other. Depending on the skill of the pilots the cruisers will lose or win (ICC cruisers will lose due to ammo, but UGTO cruiser will win because of no ammo needed). What makes it hard for ICC especially for the smaller ships fighting bigger ones is that ammo limitation.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-07-20 15:26
missle cruiser have 2 hull levels less, not big differece?
okay you are right so i might add that they have mark 1 missles
mark 2 missles are vastly superior to mark 1
u forgot a md has 5 pcms while the ss has none because its not a real missle ship
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-26 23:21
[quote]
On 2010-07-19 21:00, Starcommand of ICC *XO* wrote:
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As for the rest of the topic. Dreads are good yes but can be beaten by smaller ships in large numbers. However if two fleets of the same number, one Cruiser one Dread, fight each-other. Depending on the skill of the pilots the cruisers will lose or win (ICC cruisers will lose due to ammo, but UGTO cruiser will win because of no ammo needed). What makes it hard for ICC especially for the smaller ships fighting bigger ones is that ammo limitation.
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I don't know, in this version the fleet of cruisers will have a really hard time vs the fleet of dreads. In previous versions they would have had a much greater chance at victory.
Cruisers aren't fast and nimble enough to dodge dread weapons.
The types of dreads also matter. A group of UGTO BDs should have an easier time vs cruisers than a group of EADs due simply to cannons and arcs.
Kluth dreads should have no problem whatsoever, but on the flipside Kluth cruisers are so bad they would have almost no chance of victory (scarab is the only good cruiser and it uses a completely different style of combat).
ICC CDs vs UGTO torp cruisers is a tricky one. The CD doesn't equal the BD, and the torp cruiser packs a good punch.
The game is just not designed to keep the smaller ships useful, save for scouts with ECM/ECCM and maybe bomber frigates. The game is currently designed with a philosophy that bigger is better and that's an incentive to gain ranks, like most MMORPGs. But this isn't like most MMORPGs. It has so much potential for tactical options that aren't being used. My proposal is for more tactical options as you gain ranks instead of just increased firepower and combat effectiveness as you gain ranks.
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