| Author |
Proposal: Shipyard build queues build in cost order. |
Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
|  Posted: 2010-07-14 14:52
My thoughts on the shipyard build queue: (disclaimer: I've not thoroughly tested the build queue system, so some of the below may already be implemented or otherwise work-around-able)
It's a good idea, and can stop people from "stealing" other people's hard work by letting players get first dibs on ship construction.
However, as highlighted by a recent event, this won't stop people from being selfish and attempting to spawn disproportionately large ships given the chance. For example, if you're quick you can clog the build queue with a station and nobody else will be able to build anything until that station is constructed, which would be rather unpleasant for everyone.
Thus, I suggest that shipyard build queues sort their construction list by ascending cost to build, building the cheapest queued ship first (and then sorting by chronology). This would have a couple of effects, particularly in scenario:
First, selfish people who wanted stations or dreadnaughts would have to wait longer for their expensive ships, and wouldn't be able to hurt the rest of the team by consuming disproportionate amounts of resources. If the planet can produce destroyers at a consistent rate, for example, people could happily keep creating dessies but people who wanted to build a much larger ship wouldn't be able to get an unfair slice of the pie until everyone else had their destroyers.
Secondly, and as a side-effect of the above, people would have to get the agreement of the rest of their team if they wanted to get a dreadnaught early. If they asked nicely and everyone agreed, other players could hold off on building ships until the dreadnaught was finished, for example.
Admittedly I can see it being easy to maliciously stymie dreadnaught construction here by spawning less expensive ships over and over again, but that's pretty much always a hazard regardless.
Thoughts?
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Rhiawhyn Zerinth
Fleet Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 31, 2005
Posts: 257
From: I.C.C Deep space refueling station
| Posted: 2010-07-14 14:57
This would severly limit how many large ships are on the field in any given moment, which in it of itself is not a bad thing.
the best way to keep people from stalling out dreadnought production, have them allways pop up at the end of the que, but eventually build them anyway dispite additional ships. so all in all, good idea, i agree.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-07-14 15:26
what about
- dropping player xyz-ships out of the queue, when he leave the server (+2 minutes garage-lock-time)
- or after 10 minutes (how long does it take to farm for a station alone in a extractor ?)
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-07-14 16:14
I like that idea, this way people who want to use smaller ships can get them out right away without making other people wait too long. The people who want bigger ships will still get them eventually, but won't be able to shove them in at the head of the build order and make the entire team wait for it to finish before anyone else can get a ship out.
Though I would suggest that each player can only "jump ahead" in the build order 1 time with a smaller ship, if they add another ship into the build order it should get added to the end of the list and they have to wait their turn.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-07-14 17:21
well this is hard to balance, as selfish person a can prevent others from getting dreads by putting a dread order first. everyone else will have to use cruisers and below to actually stop him from spawning dread
its hard to balance against selfish people
current: selfish person steals res by spawning
beta: selfish person clogs queue to add insult to injury as you know you are mining for him
your idea: selfish person prevents team from getting any ship bigger/same size as his unless the team willingly mines for him
another way selfish person will work: by spawning dreads your team can never get stations as long as he places a dread order
i thought of a vote to move an order back in the queue but that can be abused
its a very delicate thing to balance
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-07-14 17:52
everyone can make an order every x minutes per sy
or
everyone have to mine his own ressourses:
- i place an order, station ~250k ress -> i have to mine 250k res, to finish my order
- im bored and start mining just for fun without placing an order on that sy -> my res will get to the next ship in queue, ordered by someone else (and he have to mine less ress for his ship
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2694
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2010-07-14 21:39
4:30 am. bad car ride.
We have ships in que, why not allocate resources to more then one ship?
Either we give the first guy in que the largest % of the res and the rest a cut as well so they inprove to.
Or like geja suggested, every ship gets a equal share and due to the lower price of lower ships they get finished first..
Addition:
Would be nice to be able to see Who has what in the que. (so you can ask the person why he is wanting his station and or offer alternatives as a team).
Logg off your qued ship gets 0& or deletef from the que.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-07-15 07:40
Quote:
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On 2010-07-14 17:21, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
well this is hard to balance, as selfish person a can prevent others from getting dreads by putting a dread order first. everyone else will have to use cruisers and below to actually stop him from spawning dread
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I'm defining "selfishness" here as "someone wanting a ship disproportionately more expensive than is appropriate," which is what we're trying to stop. If everyone wants dreadnaughts, then that's a subtly different issue.
In other words: If someone wants a cruiser when the planet can only really support destroyers, and destroyers are suitable for the tactical situation, that is being selfish.
If someone wants a cruiser when everyone else is flying around in dreadnaughts, that is not being selfish.
If someone wants a dreadnaught when cruisers would be suitable/affordable, that is selfish.
If EVERYONE wants dreadnaughts, then there's no selfishness. Or everyone is being selfish, in which case your team is doomed.
Eledore's idea isn't bad; divvy up the resources evenly, thus completing smaller ships faster. It does fall foul of the fact that each extra ship in the queue will reduce the construction speed of ALL the ships by 1/n, where n is the number of ships in the queue. Perhaps it could build the n cheapest ships first, where n is a number decided at random/by how many factories there are/in some other way.
[ This Message was edited by: Gejaheline on 2010-07-15 08:03 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-07-16 03:59
Additional thought, spawned by some developer discussion:
All ships in the queue have a "priority modifier" that slowly increases as more ships are produced. So every time a ship is finished, all the waiting ships have their priority increased. This modifier reduces the effective cost from the perspective of sorting the build list, perhaps by the % difference between the queued ship and the built ship, causing larger ships that have been in the queue for a long period of time to eventually come at the top of the queue regardless of what other ships have been added in the meantime.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-07-16 15:30
ehhh how about you can give res in your cargo to one specific order, or split it up between orders?
random guy1 wants a cruiser cost 80k
person who doesnt work at all wants a dread cost 155k
random guy2 wants a dread 160k
normally person who doesnt work will get their dread first with either system of first come first serve or cost less build first
i propose you can see the orders and give res to order you want
for example: since random guy2 has been working hard and was supposed to get second ship, teamates will give res to guy1 to fufill his order, then give res to guy2, fufiling his order, avoiding mining for the lazy person
It is quite hard to abuse this if you hate someone, best you can do is try to persuade your friends not to mine for him
will help to see that hardworkers dont get res stolen
will effectivley disable people who dont help at all, they have to mine for their ship
as for planetary based resources it will go to the ship most people are mining for, or split evenly
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2010-07-16 18:45
There was a discussion about having your unloaded res contribute to your ship's progress in the queue, but I'm not sure if that was implemented.
As it currently works, the queue distributes any resources generated equally to all ships in the queue, up to 10. The 11th and beyond have to wait until any older ships are built in order to get resources. If you have a scout, and you're on a mining planet, it might only take a round or two to get the resources required for your ship; if you're a station, it may take a few minutes (depending on the number of others in the queue).
But there's not really a way for anyone to hog it, at least not completely.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-07-17 08:39
heres my sugestion in detail:
- everyone mine ressources for his own queue
- if you dont have any ships in queue , your ress get distributed among the others
- first order get all ress form planet
- ress mined by the planet is distributed among active ship-builds
example:
- planet have 50k ress
- you order 1 ship (25k ress)
- planet give 25k res -> ship ready to spawn, planet have 25k res left
next example:
- planet have 50k
- you order 1 ship (100k)
- planet give 50k -> planet down to 0 ressources
- you drop 50k ress (planet generate 0 ressources in this example) -> ship ready to spawn
next example:
- planet have 50k ress
- you order 2 ships (both 100k)
- planet give 50k -> planet down to 0 ressources
- you drop 50k -> first ship ready
- you drop 100k -> second ship ready
next example
- planet have 50k
- you order ship (100k)
- planet give 50k
- friend (no ship in queue) drop 25k (->25k left)
- you drop 25k -> ship ready
last (complex) example:
- planet have 50k
- 3 player order 1 ship each (100k)
- player 2 order another ship (50k)
- first order get 50k from planet (1: 50k // 2: 100k-50k // 3: 100k left)
- 3 and 2 drop 75k (1: 50k // 2: 25k-50k // 3: 25k left)
- 3 drop another 50k -> his ship is ready to spawn, remaining 25k get distributed among other ships (25k /2 =12,5k -> 1: 37,5k // 2: 12,5k-50k // 3: 0 left)
- 2 drop 50k -> his first ship is ready, his 2nd ship get 37,5k (1: 37,5k // 2: 0-37,5k)
- 1 mined all the time and drop 100k -> 37,5k to his own (ship spawn) -> 37,5k to player 2 (ship spawn) and remaining 25k go to planets ressources
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