| Author |
Grouping feedback |
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
|  Posted: 2010-07-26 00:16
What was tested so far seems quite nice despite the few bugs, being able to form a group of various ships to share different types of prestige is definitely going to be a big hit especially for people who fly Recon/Interdictor/Extractor. Yes, I included Extractor, because you could have someone mining if your SY system is running low on resources while other people are off fighting and they don't have to worry about getting nothing out of it.
My only issue so far is sharing negative pres, especially friendly fire. If it's only possible to either turn pres share off or on globally and not separately then I guess we'll all just have to live with it, but otherwise why does the entire group have to take a pres hit if one person doesn't want to hold their fire when allies are in the way?
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2010-07-26 04:57
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My only issue so far is sharing negative pres, especially friendly fire. If it's only possible to either turn pres share off or on globally and not separately then I guess we'll all just have to live with it, but otherwise why does the entire group have to take a pres hit if one person doesn't want to hold their fire when allies are in the way?
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Negative prestige loss is justified both logically and fictionally.
Logical, if you want others to fight and do your bidding, you have to suffer losses for sending bad fighters against enemies. If one dies, the whole group is responsible for his death, thus the negative prestige, and points.
Fictional, you, an able rear admiral, joined a defense taskforce of the UGTO, and you dare not to help them when you took responsibility?! Such insolence shall be punished. For not helping your comrades and for the loss of combat and supply vessels, you have been penalised a third of their awarded cumulative losses.
(wordpwn 500  )
[ This Message was edited by: Dr. Michael Paradox on 2010-07-26 04:58 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-07-26 06:18
+1 to the above, really.
Basically, it's a self-regulating system that encourages people to work together and coordinate with teammates. If you fly together and support each other, you won't die and you won't shoot each other or friends, so you'll gain prestige overall. If you coordinate badly and die or FF each other, you'll lose prestige. If you really suck as a team player and keep dying or shooting your friends, you'll find that nobody wants to form a battlegroup with you any more since you cause prestige loss.
If someone in your group refuses to listen to you when you say "stop causing friendly fire!" or "stop running out into the middle of the enemy fleet!" then feel free to kick them out.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-07-26 11:56
I have a few suggestions to improve the grouping system further.
I feel incredibly strongly, that groups can only be formed by a person in a Command type ship. That is, either the Command Dreadnaught or Command Station of the respective factions.
This person is immediately designated as Group Leader, and recieves a larger share of the prestige gained and lost for being in Command Role and not exactly a big prestige gaining ship.
I also feel that the Command Dreadnaught and Command Station allow a different amount of people to join depending on which you choose. The Dreadnaught allowing 8 and the Station 12, or something similar.
Being Group Leader, I also feel that that persons respective fleet allows for other members of that fleet to join at no cost to the total number of people joined. So you could theoretically have 12 people in the same fleet as you and 12 additional people who aren't join at the same time. The idea is to give some kind of additional perk to fleeted players. Of course, the prestige would be more thinly divided so choose wisely.
People should also be able to request to join a group, if the person flying the ship in question allows for it. Some kind of options change should be present to allow this.
Also, if a person in a Command Ship docks or transfers systems, there is a 2 minute window in which that same person either undocks or gives command to another command ship before the group disbands. So there is pretty good incentive for command ships to stay in the game.
Also as a last bit of advice, I feel that people should only gain or lose prestige from each other if they are in the same system as the Command Ship. Thus making sure that the intended feature of people working under a singular command doesn't give way to command ships hiding in a faraway allied system, or groupmates straying away from one another to frak off. It makes working together pay off and gives alot of incentive to do so.
The Command Ship, also, should be visible to everyone. This sounds a little extreme, but given the huge rewards possible from grouping together, and the amount of excellent teamwork it allows, giving people the possibility of attacking those ships is a priority, otherwise it gives those people in those ships the incentive just to park as far away from the action as possible. There needs to be some risk.
Given such added limitations from this system, I think probably the best idea is to not only share prestige, but add on bonus prestige for every point gained, and perhaps change it to something like Fleet Operations stat, and prestige loss as group reduced by a noticeable amount. Thus making the risk worth the reward.
tl;dr:
- Make command ships useful
- Make forming groups risky as well as rewarding
- Add more strategic and teamplay value to the game
- Add more perks to being in a Fleet
-Ent
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-26 23:04
Make the shared prestige bonus prestige only. No sharing of badge points. That way grouping is beneficial but people still have to earn their badges, rather than have other people earn them for them.
Nobody should be earning construction points without actually engineering, transport points without capping planets, ships damaged points without ever engaging in combat, ships captured points without capping ships, etc.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2010-07-27 08:13
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On 2010-07-26 11:56, Saint Valentine suggested:
I have a few suggestions to improve the grouping system further.
I feel incredibly strongly, that groups can only be formed by a person in a Command type ship.
I also feel that the Command Dreadnaught and Command Station allow a different amount of people to join depending on which you choose. The Dreadnaught allowing 8 and the Station 12, or something similar.
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That would seem logical, but is actually penalising, for it means younger lieutenants cannot form groups on their own, and k'luth would require a fleet admiral to form a group.
The limit of 8 over group members is temporary, in the release version the grouping system should allow no limits on the size of a group, i.e. small as 2, and large as 200(obviously imagined number). You can be as big as you want, no restrictions.
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Being Group Leader, I also feel that that persons respective fleet allows for other members of that fleet to join at no cost to the total number of people joined. So you could theoretically have 12 people in the same fleet as you and 12 additional people who aren't join at the same time.
People should also be able to request to join a group, if the person flying the ship in question allows for it.
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This will probably not be required separately, courtesy of unlimited size.
If a feature for group leadership is implemented, then this is a good suggestion for it. I second it.
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Also as a last bit of advice, I feel that people should only gain or lose prestige from each other if they are in the same system as the Command Ship.
The Command Ship, also, should be visible to everyone. There needs to be some risk.
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Agreed, to an extent, for there are tasks which need inter-system cooperation of players, such as supply vessels waiting to repair damaged combat ships, who are defending the entrance to a jumpgate. Another case may be of two players, one repairing a planetary economy attacked by enemies, and the other damaging enemy planetary economies.
No ship is visible if it isn't within sensor range. You can't nab someone or ask for unfair advantages just because they have an advantage, fair or not. Also, the whole point to grouping is working together towards a common goal, not separately towards multiple goals.
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Given such added limitations from this system, I think probably the best idea is to not only share prestige, but add on bonus prestige for every point gained, and perhaps change it to something like Fleet Operations stat, and prestige loss as group reduced by a noticeable amount. Thus making the risk worth the reward.
-Ent
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As the name suggests, fleet operations is a statistic for fleeted players earned through working in a group of your own fleet. Fleets are a permanent symbol of a players collective, while groups are temporary collectives of players which disband in near time.
As for prestige earnings through grouping, I believe there are some discussions over earning prestige under 'bonus prestige', so as to deter players from depending on grouping for achieving badges.
Cheers.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-07-27 10:45
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On 2010-07-26 23:04, MrSparkle wrote:
Make the shared prestige bonus prestige only. No sharing of badge points. That way grouping is beneficial but people still have to earn their badges, rather than have other people earn them for them.
Nobody should be earning construction points without actually engineering, transport points without capping planets, ships damaged points without ever engaging in combat, ships captured points without capping ships, etc.
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Thinking about it, that's actually not a bad idea, as long as both positive and negative gains/losses are treated the same way. The only exception should be combat pres, if someone is flying a Supply/Interdictor/EW ship they're actively involved in combat but just aren't doing much, if any damage.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-27 10:57
They too should only get bonus prestige. Badges need to be earned by the individual. If that supply or dictor wants more ships damaged points, he should fly a combat ship.
Interdictors are a special case in that they perform a highly useful fleet function but have no badges associated with dictoring. That doesn't mean they should get ships damaged points for dictoring though. It should be bonus prestige only that's shared no matter what ship you're using or what function you're performing.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-07-27 11:55
That kinda defeats the purpose of grouping, prestige in itself is so easy to get it's not funny, especially with such low pres loss when you die.....I'm sure you've noticed how several people would repeatedly spawn new Stations and jump an entire fleet by themselves and die within seconds, then laugh and keep doing it because they were still gaining pres.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-27 12:35
I never thought the purpose of grouping is so that people can get their badges by having someone else earn them? I thought grouping was to share prestige.
Tell me, what purpose would badges even serve anymore if people shared badge points? What would gold transport or gold engineer signify if a player could get them without ever setting foot in a transport or engineer? What would bronze privateer signify if a player never has to bother trying to cap something? (that's arguably the hardest badge to acquire).
Might as well remove badges altogether if grouping shares them, because they'd become meaningless and in no way signify a player's experience what that ship or action.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-07-27 15:10
Getting a fraction of a badge point when someone in a group does something that earns them a full point isn't going to be much when it's things like planet cap, jumping, ship cap, etc. I was in beta helping to test it with a bunch of other people, for example if someone wants to get build pres by having someone in the group as an Engineer at a planet their build pres will go up so slowly it would take almost a minute to get a full point.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-07-27 18:41
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On 2010-07-27 15:10, Talien wrote:
Getting a fraction of a badge point when someone in a group does something that earns them a full point isn't going to be much when it's things like planet cap, jumping, ship cap, etc. I was in beta helping to test it with a bunch of other people, for example if someone wants to get build pres by having someone in the group as an Engineer at a planet their build pres will go up so slowly it would take almost a minute to get a full point.
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but they still can never set foot in a tranny, engi and get badge, no?
would take much more time, but they could go kill some stuff while other person builds
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-07-27 19:17
Sure, it'd be possible if they want to take months to get a badge that way, but I don't know of a single person who'd have that much patience. It's not an alternative way of getting badges, it's a small boost as a reward for working closely with other people doing different roles.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-28 13:13
There's also the problem of the person doing the engineering getting a fraction of those construction points.
It's not a good system overall. The person doing the action should get the full stat points and prestige, and the prestige (and only the prestige) should be shared.
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SpaceGK
Marshal
*Renegade Space Marines*
Joined: July 26, 2009
Posts: 323
From: Ontario, Canada
| Posted: 2010-08-02 22:47
The only thing about the grouping system that I want changed is that when players log off the game would it be possible to demote them from a group leader? That way we dont have to make a completly new group every time a few group leaders log off and just sit there taking up one of the limited spaces.
Either that or allow group leaders to boot other group leaders that have logged off out of the group, however not the ones that are just briefly in the sy.
Maybe have some sort of timer for this so if they are logged off for 2 min then another group leader is able to boot them? Just an idea...
-SGK
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