| Author |
New Ship Layouts |
*Obsidian Shadow*
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 03, 2010
Posts: 316
|  Posted: 2010-07-28 20:50
well then sparkle if you've been here since 2001 how come you don't know the roles yet >.>
_________________
|
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-28 20:57
Reading comprehension ftw is all I have to say. No I'll say more: I was asking what these new tasks were to be with the new layouts, in the hope that maybe they differ from the current tasks. I wasn't asking what the current tasks are, or I wouldn't have have used that quote.
Read my thread in Beta and you'll know why I asked about tasks.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2010-07-28 21:09 ]
_________________
|
SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-07-28 23:05
not sure if device points will allow it but i would love to have 1 ew slot on combat/gunboat dessie, not sure if luth counterpart (if it has one) already has it or not
also: i know its hard to balance ships and all, but will most ships have a carbon copied counter part? in ICC and UGTO ships?
i love the frigs/vettes, each unique with their own layouts yet for the most part balanced
sorry if i sound whiny
_________________
|
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-28 23:39
Not sure what the Kluth counterpart to combat/gunboat is, maybe stinger just because of cannons, but it does have 1 EW slot. I use a scanner so I can hunt down e-jumping enemies easier, but that's when I use the stinger which is rare.
_________________
|
Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2010-07-29 01:50
Quote:
|
On 2010-07-28 23:05, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
not sure if device points will allow it but i would love to have 1 ew slot on combat/gunboat dessie, not sure if luth counterpart (if it has one) already has it or not |
|
Destroyers as a whole favor more weapons instead of EW slots. The only ones that have any EW devices at all are those that need them to do their jobs: Escort and Picket Destroyers both have a Scanner to help detect incoming missiles and fighters, while the ICC Bomber Destroyer has one to let it target buildings on planets far enough away to make a proper bomb run.
No K'luth Destroyer has an EW slot.
Quote:
| also: i know its hard to balance ships and all, but will most ships have a carbon copied counter part? in ICC and UGTO ships?
i love the frigs/vettes, each unique with their own layouts yet for the most part balanced
|
|
I'm going to try and design ships along similar lines, but keep them from being perfect copies of one another where possible.
For example, the ICC Combat Destroyer and the UGTO Gunboat Destroyer. The Gunboat has even gun coverage across its front and side arcs: it can fire the equivalent of 6 guns in all three directions (a single Heavy gun counts as two regular guns), and has 3 aft. It also has 4 torpedoes, 2 each firing to opposite sides and all four firing forward. Since the UGTO rely on armor, this means that once the Gunboat's armor on one of those three arcs is worn down, it can turn to present either of the other two and still keep up the same amount of fire from its guns.
The Combat Dessie, on the other hand, has a slightly higher broadside gun armament at the expense of frontal guns. It gets 5 guns forward, 7 guns to either side and 3 guns aft. Its torpedoes are also slightly limited: All 4 can fire forward, but only 1 can fire to each side.
As a consequence, the Gunboat is slightly better when it comes to frontal attacks. It gets 6 guns and 4 torps, while the Combat gets 5 guns and 4 torps. The Combat is slightly better at twisty-turny dogfights where broadside firepower comes much more into play and at peppering big targets from longer range. It gets 7 guns and 1 torp to each side compared to the Gunboat's 6 and 2. Each still gets 8 weapons, but the Combat leans more towards guns. Since torpedoes are of less use against smaller targets, this makes it slightly more optimized for smaller-scale dogfights than the Gunboat.
Railguns are also substantially longer-ranged than torpedoes, so if a Combat Destroyer wants to annoy a Dreadnought without risking doom at the hands of its heavy beams, it can just stand off and pepper it with railguns at near-maximum range. A Gunboat has no choice but to get in close. This helps play to the ICC's strategy of fighting at long-range, because the Combat can circle its target or even fly away at an angle sharp enough to keep the side guns firing, thus maintaining distance.
I've not seen much evidence for this so far, but I would not be too surprised if the Gunboat is just a bit more effective at fighting Cruisers than the Combat, because they're small enough that it can get in close without fearing overwhelming firepower, yet big enough that its two side-firing torps have much more of a chance to hit.
The Battle Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser, Combat Dread and Battle Dread are all probably going to be designed along lines similar to these: UGTO ships getting even gun coverage around front and sides, ICC ships getting a slightly weaker frontal armament and a slightly stronger broadside.
And yes, I do think these things out in that much detail. 
[ This Message was edited by: Jim Starluck on 2010-07-29 01:55 ]
_________________
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger space battleship and try again.
|
Gerlach
Marshal
Joined: May 07, 2010
Posts: 78
| Posted: 2010-07-29 01:53
Sparkle is right. The fact is, the combat/battle line of ships works the other way than the one Jim presented most of the time, as long as the layout and firing arcs allow it and the pilot knows how to dodge enemy fire.
But all of this excludes K'luth since their faction is stand-alone (not going to write why because it was written in many threads already) while ICC and UGTO are very similar.
I think destroyers are good as they are now, but I'm a little worried what will happen once cruiser and then dread update come.
(If we bring a bit of reality here, cruisers are very rare these days and destroyers are battleship/dread killers since they were invented.)
_________________
ICC in a nutshell
UGTO in a nutshell
\"I'M HEAVY METAL \\m/>_<\\m/ !!\"
|
Siginau
Fleet Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 72
| Posted: 2010-07-29 01:54
Quote:
|
On 2010-07-28 20:36, MrSparkle wrote:
When it comes to smaller ships the battle variants tend to do better vs same size ships than the assault variants due to longer range cannons, better firing arcs, ease of dodging torpedoes and being able to stay out of the front arc of assault ships.
Assault variants tend to do better vs larger ships that cannot dodge them as easily.
That's been my experience. I never use assault destroyers vs enemy destroyers or frigates, I'd rather use them vs cruisers or dreads (if I have to use a destroyer vs a dread that is)
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2010-07-28 20:48 ]
|
|
Same here, the assault dessie of UGTO looks to me as perfectly geared to take on cruisers and dreads instead of dessies, gunboat is good against dessies and picket against frigs. youll never do anything to a frig in assault dessie which is good.
_________________
|
Jar Jar Binks
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 556
| Posted: 2010-07-29 08:16
Quote:
|
On 2010-07-28 11:44, Gejaheline wrote:
- ICC will have all of their weapons replaced with Whine Missiles and QQshields.
|
|
Ohgod, i hope those can't critically hit!
Don't think the servers can handle that 
_________________
|
Wild Cat
Fleet Admiral
Joined: August 28, 2004
Posts: 109
From: The Netherlands
| Posted: 2010-07-29 12:52
Quote:
|
On 2010-07-29 01:50, Jim Starluck wrote:
UGTO ships getting even gun coverage around front and sides, ICC ships getting a slightly weaker frontal armament and a slightly stronger broadside.
|
|
I always had the illusion that UGTO did most of the broadsiding because there are some what slower in speed and turning when compared to ICC. Because ICC are slightly faster and more nimble there are able to bring their forward weapons to bear for full effect.
So far I like the changes, looking forward to what the cruisers will be looking like. And I really hope that the destroyer will remain to feel as useful as the are now, with the future ship changes. I'm really hoping for more (heavy) cannons (that can be dodged) and less beams on the bigger ships.
[ This Message was edited by: Wild Cat on 2010-07-29 12:56 ]
_________________
Wild Cat
Dutch Time
|
SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-07-29 15:38
uhhhh i think assault dessie has an ew slot, lemme go check
but i think a combat variant needs ew more than an assault variant, so i was confused
-my mistake older version assault dessie has ew, not current one
[ This Message was edited by: SpaceAdmiral on 2010-07-29 15:44 ]
_________________
|
Veronw
Marshal
Joined: December 13, 2004
Posts: 554
| Posted: 2010-07-29 19:18
I think the toughest part about the destroyer balances, is that an ICC dessy can so easily get behind a ugto one, especially since most pilots equip some sort of engine enh. I find it incredibly difficult when flying a ugto gunny to keep an ICC dessy off my aft armor, and the really good pilots make it nearly impossible.
Not to say its not totally impossible, I've beaten some good pilots in it, it just took about six minutes and a whole lot of luck 
_________________
|
Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-07-29 19:57
I think, in my experience, that rear and side guns favour attacking smaller targets, side guns favour hitting same-size targets, and frontal guns favour fighting larger targets, all due to manoeuvrability.
Basically, you're very rarely going to be able to attack an enemy of greater or similar manoeuvrability head-on, because both of you will always be turning as hard as possible in order to get behind the enemy ship. It's much easier to get your front pointing at a larger enemy, because they can't move out of the way very easily. Hence, for example, the torpedo cruiser is great against dreadnaughts because it can fire its hefty frontal armament of torpedoes at a dread from a significant range, and then turn away for another run.
In one-on-one duels against other cruisers, though, it's terrible because it can't get its front weapons to line up with the enemy often enough to deal significant damage, while a heavy cruiser's side guns slowly grind it to death with sustained fire.
I don't know how much Jim's layouts might change this, but that's what I've seen so far.
Proviso, of course, in that this is totally my own opinion and I've not run any exhaustive tests, bar killing a few dreads and dying in a duel against an HC whilst using a TC.
[EDIT] Fixed typo.
[ This Message was edited by: Gejaheline on 2010-07-30 03:24 ]
_________________
[Darkspace Moderator] [Galactic Navy Fleet Officer]
|
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-29 20:33
No it's not just your opinion. Years of DS have taught me that too. Front arc ships have a tough time vs same size ships of destroyer size or smaller and sometimes cruisers and dreads.
Assault ships are primarily for attacking larger ships than themselves. The increased speed and maneuverability of the smaller ship means it has an easier time getting it's larger target in it's front arc.
Jim you might want to rethink how you redo these layouts.
EDIT: Obviously this is only true for ICC and UGTO. Kluth play totally different, and their Stinger with it's side guns is the exception among their destroyers. That also reminds me that when coming up with new Kluth layouts, don't bother giving destroyers and cruisers with ELF less weaponry, because having ELF but fewer damaging weapons makes them not worth using anyway (ELF isn't worth it).
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2010-07-29 20:45 ]
_________________
|
SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-07-29 21:18
actually i use combat/battle variants against big ships, at least for dessies anyways
You can shoot and dodge at the same time from a distance with less worrying avout arcs, a dessie 500-800 away from a dread/station can weave through fire and continuoulsy shoot
_________________
|
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-07-29 21:23
I actually prefer using battle variants vs larger ships because of the ability to maintain fire from a longer range while dodging, which is why I proposed what I did in Beta. Basically it's about focusing each ship size around certain weapons and arcs, save for cruisers.
Assault variants are really only good vs larger ships, but battle variants are good vs everything, and each ship size has them. Even the feared EADs and ADs are rendered docile when you move out of their front arcs.
When I play human factions I almost always use the battle variants for range and arcs, but if you read my thread in Beta you'll see my thoughts on changing the whole system.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2010-07-29 22:28 ]
_________________
|
English
Deutsch
Nederlands
)
