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Kluth from the eyes of Ravens |
Rebellion
Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: June 20, 2009
Posts: 730
From: sol
|  Posted: 2010-08-12 21:59
Quote:
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On 2010-08-12 21:57, Azure Prower wrote:
The answer is not to nerf K'Luth cloaking. The answer is to provide better/improved ways of detecting them.
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What you are proposeing is the same thing as Nerfing cloaking
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Mint Ice Cream[+R]
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 05, 2009
Posts: 43
| Posted: 2010-08-12 22:38
just give icc and ugto about 2-3 eccms per ship or decrease the eccm recharge time, it could solve the problem.
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-MiC
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Necrotic
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 378
| Posted: 2010-08-12 22:40
its intersting to point out even in the post by lark. The kluth are strong in numbers and need to be in groups 2 to 1 to be effective. We all know what ever faction has the most people is the strongest. Every faction has had periods of large influx of players. Its also intersting that the staff didnt acknowleged the fact hmm backslash must have missed it in his post.
In responce to sparkle. We PB did enjoy our time on icc. They have good people and all the tools nessicary to fight anyone. I found it very amusing they all wanted PB to stay icc and not let raven return. ICC have some of the very best ships in the game. ICC has so much to offer any player v anyone. All of their ships have a function if flown right do it better then anyone else. The icc ships are versitile many PB remarked at how they will miss the md,recon scout,ad,scb, and having usuable cruisers again. People get mad becuse they get ganked by kluth but you thow in a couple ads, a recon scout and a dictor and suddenly the battle is way in your favor.
Now an honest critism of icc their teamwork is only good when its focused and directed. When people are more concerned with earning pres then working togethor. You should loose heck half of icc doesnt like the other half. When in combat v my PB or our brothers in WOLF. We are completly unified agaisnt you.We have been playing togethor for years now. When the enemy is concerned about pres. We are only concerned about winning regardless of how its acheived. When you face an enemy on the battlefield that is only concerned with killing you regardless of losses. You must allso be willing to loose it all or you have already lost.
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Katejina
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: February 13, 2010
Posts: 73
From: katejina
| Posted: 2010-08-12 23:11
Quote:
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On 2010-08-12 21:59, Grand Admiral CRAZY45 *XO* wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-08-12 21:57, Azure Prower wrote:
The answer is not to nerf K'Luth cloaking. The answer is to provide better/improved ways of detecting them.
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What you are proposeing is the same thing as Nerfing cloaking
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I belive the old 1.484 version beacons are a delightful way to balance cloaking =P
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-12 23:18
thankyou necro for devolving the conversation. can an admin please delete his post? or at least the bit where he starts attacking other people?
anyways,
A) i didnt switch my name to be anonymous =S
B) @ sparkles, arguably if kluth pilots are agreeing with me (and many are) I think its less of supporting our own conclusions than simply being honest. i went in with as open a mind as possible to find the good and bad in the faction. simply because i focused on what im critical of doesnt mean there were some pluses, its just that identifying whats good about kluth wasnt the goal. Raven will be releasing a similar review of ICC in a couple weeks and we intend to be just as critical. unfortunately no one wants to go UGTO so we wont be able to do the same for them.
C) @ Necro: PB has more people than Raven does, you yourself flamed us in server for not having more people on or whatever. the bulk of the assault kluth did against ICC and UGTO was also done before PB switched back. numberical superiority had little to do with it.
regarding the other point on numbers, i meant to include this in the original post:
flying alone on kluth was a very unforgiving experience. this isnt to say that it was impossible, merely that making a mistake was a big deal. in a group on the other hand it was much more forgiving. so long as you did what the group did you had very little chance of dying.
in any case, Raven is merely providing data. devs can choose to ignore it or not. we are doing our best to be neutral in the matter. the conversation as to how to fix whatever problems we uncover is up for the devs and the rest of the community to grapple with, as they have begun to do here. I hope the conversation remains as civil as it has mostly been. Personally i hope the conversation leads to a more open, civil, and friendly community, the sort that DS used to be proud of. People who are here simply to defend the status quo that the majority of the community does not think its tennable should be ostracized from this particular conversation in my mind.
[ This Message was edited by: N'kra The Wolf on 2010-08-12 23:34 ]
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Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Died~2000~Deaths[+R]*CC*
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness
Joined: February 08, 2010
Posts: 540
From: Spokane WA.
| Posted: 2010-08-12 23:48
Ok here's one. All factions have strenght's and weakness. My point of view of icc .Lets look,u have shields,they rotate,they re charge and faster than a kluth's aromour repaires,i've gone in to battle with a icc dread with no shields on loose the armour hit repaire
turn them on when armour gone. loose shields turn them off to repaire oooo look the armour is up and i've killed 2 players ,all u have to do is hit a couple numbers got shields up again. For the time pb had switched to icc we hlp icc take and keep 5 of the 9sytems thats 5 icc sytems and 4 to divide between 2 factions then we got bored and stoped.If u know how to cordinate, ne faction can dominate.the only reason everyone hates kluth is u cant c us thats it. I get so tired of the crying they can do this i cant do that omg pick a faction grow up and play the game
[ This Message was edited by: Died~1000~Deaths on 2010-08-12 23:55 ]
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-12 23:55
@ died:
Aurigan watched PB take 2 systems from kluth. it took 3 hours and he was the only person online.
kluth then attacked and took 5 systems in 7 hours, with some resistance along the way rather than none.
most of the fights i took part in were very one-sided in kluths favour as well, presuming there was an even number of people on either side. i suspect there are server logs to back this up.
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Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-13 00:08
My comments:
In the limited time I had to play ICC (I played it only about 4 or 5 times in the first week of the Raven/PB switch, then had to fly off on a work trip), well this is what I found.
First off, ICC aren't as weak as what a lot of ppl are claiming. The thing that against K'luth, you should never be flying alone. Come to think of it... flying alone against anyone, anytime is a good way to reduce your lifespan drastically.
It's a numbers game. 1 vs 1, a K'luth dread can never take on an ICC or UGTO dread down. It's just some prestige gain before he has to bail. And when that happens, the ICC/UGTO ship has also gotten his fair share of pres.
K'luths are always most succesful in numbers (as many have said), but which faction isn't? You put 3 UGTO/ICC dreads against 1 Kluth, and all he can do is run. You reverse the situation, and the human ship has to run. Isn't that the mechanics of gameplay?
Playing ICC, you have to know when to quit and run. Unlike K'luths, you have to give yourself a bigger buffer. I'm always prepared when on ICC. If I get jumped by 2 or more dreads and know that I don't stand a chance, I hit Def mode, then F2 to target a safe planet (or gate) and make that jump pronto. No random e-jumps into deep space where they can track me and take me out. I have the luxury of Def mode to last that moment longer to actually do a proper plot.
Also, once a Kluth dread is decloaked, you ICCs have to focus fire on ONE of them. Call the Primary target. Kluth armor is weak. 3 ICC ADs or CDs focusing fire on a single K'luth dread will take him out of the fight pretty damned fast. Even if you are under fire by 2 other Kluths, you keep your focus on that primary target until he gets blown up, or he jumps out, or you take enough damage to warrant a quick escape.
Use your own fleetmates as cover. That's why I said "Stick close to them". If you're the enemy's primary, you can always run behind one of your own teammates to let him absorb some of the hits while you recover, adjust your shielding, or reposition yourself. You're the primary, and your teammate probably hasn't taken a hit yet, so it's wise to spread the damage out. Just remember not to FF him, or take FF by flying into his volley.
Also, I learnt to jump, then recharge my JD to at least 70% before I entered an engagement or go through a gate. That way, I only have under a minute or so before I'm ready to e-jump out if needed.
Perhaps playing Kluth will help you to prepare playing against Kluth.
As for cloak, I found it exciting to try locating K'luth using ping and blindfire. Never once did I complain about "Come out and fight like a man, you lobster!!" 
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-08-13 00:48
Ok, N'kra's and Necro's posts both show exactly what I mean  It's not a bad thing, it's a normal thing I see all the time, even when people are trying to be totally objective.
Nobody's opinions are gonna change about the other faction after this, and in fact it's possible that people who thought ICC were underpowered now think they aren't. But if you think about that, that does support preconceived notions that "ICC aren't underpowered they just have no teamwork".
My feeling is this, and so far it's happening exactly as I predicted: Raven will say that Kluth ships are strong and some things are extremely easy for them, and PB will say ICC ships are strong and when teamwork is used there's nothing they can't do. Both of those opinions support exactly what was trying to be proven in the first place, as in Raven wanted to show that Kluth really are OP and need adjustment in certain areas, and PB wanted to show that ICC are strong themselves and there's no reason for the QQ.
I don't expect anyone to say "wow Kluth have some problems that are exploitable by the humans, maybe they aren't as OP as we thought" or "ICC have problems and maybe it's true that the devs need to fix some of their ships or give humans more anti-cloak capability"
It's all good. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not criticizing. It's good to play as other factions once in a while no matter what the reason is.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-13 01:01
@ kenny:
A) all well and good if no one brings a dictor =P
B) on multiple occasions i chased, a group chased, or i had someone waiting to kill anyone who fled a fight to a planet. cloak makes planets meaningless. on other occasions we purposefully let someone sit and repair in the middle of a cluster so thered be more prestige for when we came back to kill them (in the middle of the cluster).
C) saying its the players fault is a bit of a strawman. supposedly PB was organized, so dont point to the rest of ICC's supposed disorganization: what did PB experience?
in any case, this isnt about kluth versus ICC, or ICC, its about kluth. PB is welcome to make their own post seperately so issues with ICC can be discussed. Raven will be doing likewise, as stated.
Instead, can we please continue the conversation on how to fix the issues identified with kluth? I'm sure the devs would appreciate any possible ideas generated by said discussion.
To bring us back on topic:
I think theres a difference between no cloak, a cloak that can be disrupted, and a cloak that can be easily disrupted. obviously with no cloak kluth would be worthless. with a cloak that can be disrupted there appears to be balance issues because that disruption is not good enough. but what about easy disruption?
if we let kluth jump while cloaked, but that cloak was easily disrupted, i think there would still be a clear advantage in that they would be able to position and plan without detection, but human factions would have to be constantly vigilant and those plans could be easily disrupted.
the issue with cloak is that it is too effective a defensive mechanism for a faction designed to be offensive. if you took away cloak but allowed kluth to jump through dictor fields it would probably be more balanced. i doubt kluth want their cloak taken away though =P so the trick is to make cloak a good offensive tool, but a poor defensive system. this means it needs to be good when attacking enemy ships and planets, but not so good that planets offer no defense to ships or the other way around, which is where it currently stands.
as i have suggested before i think the easiest solution is to create multiple cloaks and multiple counters that are each specialized to one thing but not very good at others.
i also think there is a clear problem in the fact that kluth vessels simply continue scaling up in firepower. once u hit dreads there is absolutely no reason to fly a frigate or dessy. the only support roles that have any use on kluth are bombing and dictoring, with some engineering on the side. on human factions you must also add EW and repair ships. this simple fact creates a disadvantage.
one thing that would help would be to limit the number of AHR and EW slots on kluth dreads and up. the siphon has 2 EW slots and 2 AHR slots, whereas the AD has 1 EW slot and a pulse wave. reducing EW slots might encourage kluth to field frigates that do have them to make up the difference. that being said ECM might need a boost to allow it to play a bigger role in helping cloak. however it should also be made so that it cannot be run while cloaked.
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Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-13 01:11
@ sparkle, 2 of the ppl who took part were former PB members themselves, and one had pretty exclusively played kluth. they had no issues with what was posted here. many other kluth pilots generally agree that there is an issue, its mainly the details that are argued over.
its also worth mentioning that Raven has had i think around 6 former PB players? and 2 former Wolf players in it, and many of us have had longer stays on kluth than the 2 weeks we just did.
we also dont play exclusively to win. i think the fact that ive been kicked for yelling at people flying torp MDs and cannon EDs should be testament to that =P we just want to have fun and want to better the game so that said fun is easily available. playing kluth was too easy to be fun, and fighting them isnt very entertaining either. hence why we went through the effort.
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Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-13 04:51
Quote:
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On 2010-08-13 01:01, N'kra The Wolf wrote:
@ kenny:
A) all well and good if no one brings a dictor =P
B) on multiple occasions i chased, a group chased, or i had someone waiting to kill anyone who fled a fight to a planet. cloak makes planets meaningless. on other occasions we purposefully let someone sit and repair in the middle of a cluster so thered be more prestige for when we came back to kill them (in the middle of the cluster).
C) saying its the players fault is a bit of a strawman. supposedly PB was organized, so dont point to the rest of ICC's supposed disorganization: what did PB experience?
in any case, this isnt about kluth versus ICC, or ICC, its about kluth. PB is welcome to make their own post seperately so issues with ICC can be discussed. Raven will be doing likewise, as stated.
Instead, can we please continue the conversation on how to fix the issues identified with kluth? I'm sure the devs would appreciate any possible ideas generated by said discussion.
To bring us back on topic:
I think theres a difference between no cloak, a cloak that can be disrupted, and a cloak that can be easily disrupted. obviously with no cloak kluth would be worthless. with a cloak that can be disrupted there appears to be balance issues because that disruption is not good enough. but what about easy disruption?
if we let kluth jump while cloaked, but that cloak was easily disrupted, i think there would still be a clear advantage in that they would be able to position and plan without detection, but human factions would have to be constantly vigilant and those plans could be easily disrupted.
the issue with cloak is that it is too effective a defensive mechanism for a faction designed to be offensive. if you took away cloak but allowed kluth to jump through dictor fields it would probably be more balanced. i doubt kluth want their cloak taken away though =P so the trick is to make cloak a good offensive tool, but a poor defensive system. this means it needs to be good when attacking enemy ships and planets, but not so good that planets offer no defense to ships or the other way around, which is where it currently stands.
as i have suggested before i think the easiest solution is to create multiple cloaks and multiple counters that are each specialized to one thing but not very good at others.
i also think there is a clear problem in the fact that kluth vessels simply continue scaling up in firepower. once u hit dreads there is absolutely no reason to fly a frigate or dessy. the only support roles that have any use on kluth are bombing and dictoring, with some engineering on the side. on human factions you must also add EW and repair ships. this simple fact creates a disadvantage.
one thing that would help would be to limit the number of AHR and EW slots on kluth dreads and up. the siphon has 2 EW slots and 2 AHR slots, whereas the AD has 1 EW slot and a pulse wave. reducing EW slots might encourage kluth to field frigates that do have them to make up the difference. that being said ECM might need a boost to allow it to play a bigger role in helping cloak. however it should also be made so that it cannot be run while cloaked.
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a) Dicos work both ways. Any ship caught in the field is a dead duck. Have you ever seen a Kluth dread caught in a dico field, beaconed, and surrounded by Cruisers and Dreads. Dead pretty fast. That said, whenever I'm Kluth, I avoid said death traps.
So maybe you should deploy a scout and dico with your fleet everytime you go out?
b) You said it. It's in a cluster. That means that if the ICC is doing their job right, that cluster should be dico'ed. At the first sign of an attack, I'll jump out.... leaving the Kluths dictored in the cluster.
c) Personally, I stuck with my PB mates. 2 or 3 ship formations. The days I played, the rest of the ICC seemed more interested in fighting UGTOs, while PB went looking for Kluth. So while it was good going within our fleet, I can't really say for the rest of ICC as I didn't get a chance to fly alongside them much.
However the times that we did go after UGTO, it was normal perhaps. Though I would say that they are not as coordinated as Kluth when it comes to calling out primary targets and focusing fire. This is something that Kluth excels in, having the time to discuss it in cloak.
Back to the topic:
Let's look at your point where you mentioned an easily disrupted cloak. The question would be.... how easy? And what would it take to disrupt cloak?
You mention about the cloak being too defensive for an offensive faction. I have to also ask, how about Kluth armor? It is also far too weak to belong to an offensive faction. Head to head with an EAD, a Krill would be hulled long before it could melt away the EAD's frontal armor. How offensive is that?
I believe the correct term would be "Hit and Run" faction. We sneak in, decloak, fire, and cloak and run. Hence the cloak and weaker armor. So, if you nerf the cloak, then a few things will happen:
- Kluth will not be able to sneak up on you
- You can disrupt the cloak easily and jump the Kluth instead.
- Since cloak is no longer perfect, they can't run either after you jump them, or after they've attacked you and try to escape.
What then would be the point of the "Hit and Run" faction, if they can't sneak in to hit you... and then run after that?
I read with interest, your earlier suggestions on multiple cloaks... and wonder.... cloak is cloak. Why and how would we want to complicated by adding in Type A and Type B cloaks? A cloak is a device that simply renders you invisible from radar/scanner and sight. So while cloaked, a ship should be completely undetectable. But cloak shouldn't be undefeatable either.
The way I see it,
- Cloak should have certain counters, like pinging, or anti-cloak devices/weapons that could disrupt it momentarily. I proposed specialized weapons like a cloak disrupting torpedo. Special weapons mounted only on certain ship classes.
- Cloak should have a short cool off period so that a Kluth pilot will need to work more to choose his moment of attack.
- 1 less EW slot can do too. Since our Ultimate worker has 3 ECM slots, we can always deploy more Workers to assist us in our fleet actions, pretty much as humans have to deploy scouts against us. I think that's pretty fair.
- Tie cloak effectiveness to the vessel's velocity.
We should also make cloak work like noise on a submarine. On a submarine, stealth is everything. The faster he moves, the more noise he makes, the more detectable he is. I propose having the cloak start to shimmer when a ship approaches 75% of its max speed.
Obviously, it would need some programming or even shader techniques needed in the game. But the obvious advantage to ICC/UGTO is... that you can run a max speed to avoid a cloaked Kluth... since he will have to run after you and risk exposing himself. Or he will have to give up the chase and reposition himself to get you. That's one up for human defence.
Now, I know that allowing jumps while cloaked, or allowing Kluth ships to bypass dico fields is not a good thing for you guys. Why? Even if you make cloak easily disruptable.... the QQ'ing would soon start again when you realize that we can get away ANYTIME. Cloak defeated? Simply jump out... since we're impervious to dicos, and can even do it while cloaked.
So no... don't go there. Not a good idea. More harm than good.
On the flip side, I would say that if you were to weaken the cloak, you would have to give Kluth back something.
- More armor/hull
- More speed
- No delay between decloaking and firing
Personally, I'd go for a 10% speed buff.
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Siginau
Fleet Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 72
| Posted: 2010-08-13 05:23
remove kluth armor, and make cloak perfect again.
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Mint Ice Cream[+R]
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 05, 2009
Posts: 43
| Posted: 2010-08-13 05:42
Quote:
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On 2010-08-13 05:23, Siginau wrote:
remove kluth armor, and make cloak perfect again.
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+1
the current luth's armour mean almost nothing to me(the organic one) 5 secs on the battlefield being a prim target and it gone with the wind ._. i'd like to have 25% more hull than those "weaker than paper" armor...
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Jabberwocky
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: September 01, 2002
Posts: 45
| Posted: 2010-08-13 06:04
ok here's my two cents....
I've played this game for years. I'm not the best pilot in the MV and never claimed to be. I've played all the factions in that time, not so much ICC but thats probably more due to the fact that when I started out ICC had masses of players. I chose kluth and UGTO when they were the underdogs.
Eventually I fell in with the PB clan. Nowhere in my journey through darkspace have I come across a better group of comrades than them. The only reason I don't play other factions is because I follow my fleet.
In my time in darkspace I have learnt two lessons. Team work rules, Numbers rule. The faction with both will dominate.
I enjoyed playing ICC....a change is as good a a holiday. AD and MD rock! I might have branched out to some crusiers etc but didn't want to deplete my Kluth garage. As for my experience as ICC, I can only say this....
Kluth are annoying as hell.
Having said that... I killed more than I got killed and enjoyed the hunting process. Kluth are not invincible.
The main problem I had as ICC was an ejump. Not used to getting tracked as Kluth.
I agree with alot of points that N'kra makes. Trannie rushing as Kluth is very easy.... thats why we don't do it. A lot of Kluth are old school. We like a challenge and we love a fight. We are pack hunters. We pull down the mighty and the weak alike. We are what the game makes us. The only reason we dont gain more ground in MV is that, generally we only cap planets when we are bored or want to stir up a fight.
The Cloak is fine. its the detection that needs to be refined. I'm still not sure why why they nerfed the beacons. That was a geat equaliser to the cloak and made flying kluth far more challenging. But the game is what it is, you just have to play accordingly.
I tend to agree that currently Kluth is an easy faction to play at the moment. But the game is evolving constantly and I am sure the Devs will devise some fresh hell for the the kluth that puts us back in our place.
Regardless of whether I am the stomper or the stompee (personal preference for stomper) I believe the greatest detraction from this game is all the complaining about fair and equal and all the back biting about players who play their faction of choice. If you dont like your faction then change it. Make suggestions to improve the faction that you love and by all means raise an inquiry/dabate about a percieved inequaties but other than that....
live with it, because we have all been there.
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