| Author |
Proposed Planetary Changes |
Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
|  Posted: 2010-09-15 05:01
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On 2010-09-15 03:32, Shigernafy wrote:
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| As far as K'luth comes to mind, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want a planet. |
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I'm not sure this is exactly what Azreal was getting at, but the fact of the matter is that once you spawn a ship, it never really goes away -- it just needs repairing. Thus, you really only need your faction to own a planet for about two minutes after each time you gain rank (assuming you have new ships you want to spawn), otherwise you have everything you need. Since ships regen in garages now, technically you don't even need a planet to be repaired, though this obviously comes at the cost of having to not play for 24 hours after having your ships destroyed.
But with a repair ship and AHR, Kluth especially don't really even need rally/repair points...
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Well, this is exactly my point.
overlooked one thing tho:
I have an engy in my garage. It has a mining beam. I can mine any planet green or not. I can then build plats in space, which is the Luth forte'. At that point, I dont have to wait at all for garage reps. I operate same as always. This makes planets utterly worthless to me. They are only bait for killing humans and starting fights.
And Fatal Command hits on the other issue I have been more and more disturbed about. The skills that have always been a big part of DS are slowly being thrown away. As the skills required go away, so does my interest.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-09-15 05:02
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On 2010-09-15 04:17, Mint Ice Cream[+R] wrote:
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On 2010-09-15 04:02, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
I just hope that the roll based calculations are implemented properly.
If I line up 8 bombers to attack a planet and they cloud bomb simultaneously, I expect to see the planet's def overwhelmed by the sheer number of projectiles sent at it.
i.e. 14 def buildings with 8 x 4 x 5 bombs or missiles flying at it. It won't stand a chance in hell to take out even 5% of the bombs being lobbed at it.
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so... what your point ._.???a procibis and a clavate now can easily overwhelm 4 tier 2 anti-bombardment bases
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He mentioned that with the new interaction, your hit/miss probability is already calculated the moment your bombs are launched.
Now, I'm assuming this:
With the current system, a planet's defs works just like any other PD. Beam fires with a 100% hit probability, then it goes through its cooloff cycle and then targets and fires again. So if you have 5 PDs on that side of the planet and only 4 bombs approaching it, they're going to be taken out of the equation fast.
To counter this, we cloud bomb. Hopefully 30 bombs coming it at the same time, only 10 of them can be taken out by the 5 PDs before the remaining 20 impacts the surface/target.
Basically... numbers win.
For this new planetary system.... I'm just wondering how it will work if given the same scenario. He mentioned a roll-based system. If I employ the same cloud bombing technique and send 30 bombs towards his planet with only 5 def structures facing them.... are all those 30 bombs gonna go through the same roll system?
And if by some weird stroke of luck, 30 rolls say hit-by-PD. Are all the 30 bombs travelling side by side gonna be eliminated by 5 PDs just like that?
Or will the system only roll 5 of the bombs for a shot, while the other 25 get through?
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Apehezt
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 12, 2009
Posts: 15
From: Apehezt
| Posted: 2010-09-15 06:07
Sounds good. Looking forward to it.
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warlord 1050
Admiral
Joined: April 05, 2006
Posts: 19
| Posted: 2010-09-15 06:14
very nice idea's
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Fatal Perihelion
Chief Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: April 15, 2010
Posts: 308
| Posted: 2010-09-15 06:45
These changes in the future sound interresting.
But still i dont know if they are needed or will change anything.
Beside some new players most users dont realy take care for the planets,
as long as their faction controls a sector in Sagitarius close to the enemy.
Like ICC controls Tau Ceti, Ugto rule Luyten and Kluth control Epsidion.
Any planets in these sectors are easily recaptured by the dominating faction.
Trying to get a cluster in enemy territory on the other hand, already needs some effort
and, as mentioned above, will be recaptured at the end of the day most likely.
The places with high strategic values are Planet clusters close to GATES.
The game will sooner or later get stuck in this "gate-fights" again because its just logic.
Conclusion: Lowering, increasing planetary defense or dividing prestige
among capturing forces will not change much.
Dont want to spoil your work! Just you could do a big effort with nearly no effect.
If you manage to realy motivate players
to capture planets, this could change the game making planets more crucial. But therefore you need realy high restrictions for the losing faction (like not being able to spawn Stations),and/or give realy high benefits
to the winning faction.(BIG prestige)
This again may result in players saying: " I am sick of these bombing/captureing missions, why cant we just fight"?
Or: "We are outnumbered, outsourced, the ballance of game goes more and more towards the enemy, stupid planet captures!"
Also factions seem to have their dominating day-times. In this time-zone their will be no resistance at all.
So we could try those changes, but all in all the access to Sagitarius and after that the strategic clusters near gates, will still be the most important things and will be the actual motivation to fight for a planet.
imho
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-09-15 06:58
Something I just thought of for the new bombing idea, what about pulse shield? Currently it can take out bombs and can be used to ruin a cloud bomber's day, but if bombing effectiveness is going to be automatically determined the instant they're launched then how will it factor in?
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On 2010-09-15 05:02, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
For this new planetary system.... I'm just wondering how it will work if given the same scenario. He mentioned a roll-based system. If I employ the same cloud bombing technique and send 30 bombs towards his planet with only 5 def structures facing them.... are all those 30 bombs gonna go through the same roll system?
And if by some weird stroke of luck, 30 rolls say hit-by-PD. Are all the 30 bombs travelling side by side gonna be eliminated by 5 PDs just like that?
Or will the system only roll 5 of the bombs for a shot, while the other 25 get through?
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I'd imagine it'll be a little more complicated than just that. Remember, all types of bases have beams and not just PD bases, but PD have multiple beams at the expense of offense. Try it for yourself in beta and see, build up a planet with nothing but PD/PD2s then try to cloud bomb it and watch how many get shot down, then do a mix of Offense/PD and bomb it again. I'd suggest using an ICC planet and adding a shield then bombing with Telekinetic/Mirv so you don't have to wait for pop/tech to go back up.
Then again bases themselves will likely get a rework so this may not even be an accurate test.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-09-15 08:01
A lot of you don't seem to understand how roll-based systems works. If you fire a bomb, and it has succeeded in it's roll against the planets defences, it will hit the planet regardless of pulse wave, pd activated, or anything else. This is the nature of roll-based systems, and is how practically every MMO in the business does it's damage system due to it's low load cost. It has become increasingly apparent that we cannot continue to increase noun counts and CPU time on the server, which we have been doing over the years, and we can only optimise so much. There is a reason quake-style games only have a handful of players per server, and we’re trying to serve up FAR more than any other MMO is.
As a result of this, some evils are necessary in order for things to work, this is one of those things. Whilst redesigning the planetary system, it gave me a chance to incorporate such a system and possibly lower the load in one area of the game (although the dev team has been in discussion about roll-based systems for quite some time). This means that cloud bombing and such activities will not be possible anymore. In fact, bomb ranges will most likely be reduced dramatically to promote the bomber pilot being up-close and personal with the planet. I’m sorry if that disappoints some of you players who continue to go on about skill. Personally, I don’t see how skill comes into play when hiding under ECM and cloud bombing a planet. In fact, I see the requirement for a skillful bomber pilot increasing due to the increased exposure to the planets defences and a defending faction. So whilst we remove one aspect of ‘skillful’ play (again, I fail to see how the old bombing system required skill in any form), we increase the requirement in other areas.
Not only that, but in my honest opinion, the old bombing system was boring as hell. You either sat around a planet hitting ‘b’ doing nothing else, or aimed your ship at a planet hitting ‘b’ until all your bombs were released. I much prefer the thought of a bomber pilot being in the thick of it, trying to avoid fire, whilst bombarding the planet surface. There's even the possibility for planetary events at some point in the future ([so and so] has happened, [command name] wants you to take out [so and so structure] within [time limit]), although that'll most likely be saved for the mission system.
As far as the point of not ‘needing’ a planet, I really am failing to see the point being made. You don’t ‘need’ anything in this game - you can get by without platforms, get by without a shipyard, get by without x, y, z. The difference is that you WANT x, you WANT y, and you WANT z. As I stated earlier, the planetary system is merely a framework that future systems can be based on, making players WANT to own, capture and defend their planets. But again, as I stated earlier, the framework has to be set first.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2010-09-15 08:04 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-09-15 09:50
So it's only the planet itself that's factored in when someone is bombing it, and not any ships in the area. That's what I was wondering about, so basically you want to kill the bomber before it gets into range to drop otherwise it might get lucky and trash the planet?
I suppose this would help with projectile tracking at least. If bombing is going to be roll based then wouldn't each ship only need to have 1 bomb launcher that scales in power based on ship size?
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-09-15 10:13
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On 2010-09-15 09:50, Talien wrote:
So it's only the planet itself that's factored in when someone is bombing it, and not any ships in the area. That's what I was wondering about, so basically you want to kill the bomber before it gets into range to drop otherwise it might get lucky and trash the planet?
I suppose this would help with projectile tracking at least. If bombing is going to be roll based then wouldn't each ship only need to have 1 bomb launcher that scales in power based on ship size?
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No, we'll still retain the multiple launchers. It's really very easy to work in.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2010-09-15 10:54
- Consideration: Bombing is no longer bombing in literal sense.
Query: How about scenario?
Evaluation: Making bombing ships (including transport ships) lack their role. Right-click-function must be disable by default to not confuse the bomber while they're between the combat fleet.
- Consideration: Capturing a planet requires number and power.
Query: How does KLuth influence alliance while they're cloaking?
Evaluation: The era of station spam and dreadspace shines. AIs are exploited.
- Consideration: Adding "king of the hill" and "gambling" element into real-time base.
Query: Will "repair structure" and "regen alliance" be added to infantry?
Evaluation: DS is a real-time based game, hence gambling does not suite. With the roll, Bomber Dread is not always better than Bomber Cruiser.
- Consideration: Planet has a higher self-determination.
Query: Does a planet turn from faction x -> unknown -> faction y?
Evaluation: Even not being bombed or razed, a structure can stop functioning.
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2010-09-15 15:50 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-09-15 11:07
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On 2010-09-15 10:13, BackSlash wrote:
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On 2010-09-15 09:50, Talien wrote:
So it's only the planet itself that's factored in when someone is bombing it, and not any ships in the area. That's what I was wondering about, so basically you want to kill the bomber before it gets into range to drop otherwise it might get lucky and trash the planet?
I suppose this would help with projectile tracking at least. If bombing is going to be roll based then wouldn't each ship only need to have 1 bomb launcher that scales in power based on ship size?
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No, we'll still retain the multiple launchers. It's really very easy to work in.
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How would a planetary defence handle a scenario where 3 bombers are lobbing bomb after bomb (say... 30 bombs total) at one side of the planet where only 3 def structures are located and/or have a LOS to?
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Tommas [ USF HunnyBunny ]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: February 04, 2006
Posts: 581
From: Norway
| Posted: 2010-09-15 13:39
This is a game that is designed around territory. Usually fighting is a result of defending or attacking planets. When the defenders is gone etc the attacker starts bombing. So saying that planet is not important for Kluth is just wrong.
I see Backslash has another way to see skills then i do. I don't think having numbers around a planet is based on skills. The new system is in the end who got the most players thing. So in the end u just don't need any skills other then outnumber the enemy. And as speed has been taken away from the game, so has the skills. Its not that hard hitting a slowly moving dread/station is it?
I for one loved the old system of bombing. You started far out, cloud bombed the bombs and moved close to the planet. You had to shield the bombs from the planets pd in order to be successful. The only part that was bad with this system was the bug in it. If they only fixed the damage done to a planet!!!
About the Roll based thingy it realy worries me. I see that theres problems in the game with the Lag and Desynch and stuff. And i have no clue on how to fix it, i only see the downside of it.
When you make this system pre determined then you also take away the parts of the game that i love, the thing that separates the bad and the good players. To be able to change the outcome of things.
So in the end i hope you don't think only performance instead of the game play.
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Necrotic
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 378
| Posted: 2010-09-15 14:45
Its a intersting system but i have to ask soemthing we are kinda missing here. If you can sit a fleet next to a planet and gain capture through time. Why have bombers at all I mean think of it like this why use and risk a bomber when you can sit a bunch of stations next to the planet and almost guarantee capture with out the use of bombers.
The idea stated having bombers would help reduce allegiance but why risk using bombers at all and just put something in orbit that can tank as long as you need to.This would create and even greater interest in using stations. I would go so far to say this if this system does go into effect then stations should have their ability to bomb removed infavor of forcing players to actually use bombers and not just use a bunch of command or support stations. The bombers would be a asset if they reduced the allegiance very quickly then you would have the problem of just swarming the planet with bombers.
The system looks promising I think having a cumulative bonus for the more planets controlled in system for example attacking a system like sol would be inherently more difficult then attacking a system controlled by multiple factions.Not only becuse it being a home system but also becuse of a cumulative bonus of controlling more planets in the system.
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No matter how hard they have tried. They havnt figured out how to nerf skill yet :P
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-09-15 14:55
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On 2010-09-15 11:07, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
How would a planetary defence handle a scenario where 3 bombers are lobbing bomb after bomb (say... 30 bombs total) at one side of the planet where only 3 def structures are located and/or have a LOS to?
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Planets no longer shoot out of defence bases, so the roll will always be the same regardless of position to planet, or defence 'base'. That's why I stated that planets can defend themselves regardless of defence structures now.
@Tommy, a larger fleet can hold a planet easier yes, but a skillful fleet will find a way to remove the larger fleet, and capture the planet that way. Same as in combat, larger fleet doesn't always mean they'll win. Exection plays a big part.
Shielding a cloud of bombs did not require skill at all. All you had to do was head towards the target at a set speed, and press B, and cover the bombs until you felt comfortable with moving away. It revolved more around risk than skill. With this system, if a fleet can protect it's bomber(s), they can do a large amount of damage. Bombers can also choose to destroy/disable select structures on the planet, making it easier for the attacking fleet, or for them to bomb. A skillful bomber will pick which targets to remove from the planet instead of just attacking the planet itself, so that in the long run, the chances of your fleet capturing the planet increases.
I'd also imagine that bomber ships will have their combat fittings increased slightly so that instead of simply sitting in orbit pressing b, they can aid their fleet in removing some of the attackers. A skillful bomber will pick its targets carefully, whilst avoiding the enemy, and taking out key structures. I believe this requires far more skill than the current "face planet, press b, turn away when you think you wont hit the planet".
@Necrotic, bombers remove allegiance faster than a player would simply by being in orbit. Right now I've got numbers around the area of a bomber having the same weight as two players simply being in orbit. Plus there's the fact that bombers will remove allegiance even if a larger force is in orbit, it doesn't simply 'add' to the negative force as a normal ship would.
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JBud
Marshal
Joined: February 26, 2008
Posts: 1900
From: Behind you.
| Posted: 2010-09-15 15:32
I have been looking forward to this system for quite some time, too see now what changes are to come is exciting, but nerveracking.. Because I know now that this is going to take a long time to implement. One of the biggest issues I have with planets is how easy it is to enter the territory of a planet..
With defenses firing everything they have at you, it is way to simple to get in range of a planet and drop your infantry. Planet defenses are probably the one thing I liked about the previous major version (1.483) Because they were deathbringers.
I know this brings some issues with the current system, due to how difficult it now is to bomb a planet. However, it is hard to watch a single player bring a planet to the dark ages.
So my main topic here is, what exactly will be done about defenses?
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